• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

TL 8/9 air taxis

Great article, thanks for sharing.

Regarding FAA regs, may be less onerous than anticipated. The use of camera drones for film and television has, erm, skyrocketed over the last several years and the FAA was surprisingly quick to require certification, knowledge of no-flight areas, etc, for non-aviator civilians. In fact, most producers won’t hire a drone operator without FAA ceritifications now. So it’s possible these regs for tiny, operated drones could lay the foundation for something like air-taxis in the near future.

But clearly the tech expense and possibly anemic customer base are the big hurdles.
 
there are electric aircraft in the works that are car sized, with ducted fans instead of rotors. Those are unlikely to be heliport-limited.

And, until such become available, more heliports aren't likely; once they are, more heliports are unneeded.

We might see a return of the airships, tho', replacing helos for tourist flights. Electric zeppelins are now doable. Carbon fiber's lighter than aluminum for the strength, AND can contain helium directly, rather than requiring internal bags.
 
there are electric aircraft in the works that are car sized, with ducted fans instead of rotors. Those are unlikely to be heliport-limited.


They're still not going to takeoff and land on city streets or in parking lots.

Call 'em heliports, call 'em LZs, call 'em whatever you want. They're still going to use specific designated areas for safety and flight control reasons. The app on your phone will call one to a nearby "heliport", but it won't call on to the curb outside the bar.
 
They're still not going to takeoff and land on city streets or in parking lots.

Call 'em heliports, call 'em LZs, call 'em whatever you want. They're still going to use specific designated areas for safety and flight control reasons. The app on your phone will call one to a nearby "heliport", but it won't call on to the curb outside the bar.

Sorry, but I disagree vehemently. The consumer demand, once the availability is there, is going to be for curbside. And the FAA will get "informed" by the legislators to make it happen. (Much like Sport Pilot licensing - it wasn't the FAA's idea. Congress-critters told them to make it happen - at least according to late Sen. Ted Stevens - he didn't want to have to give up his license when he could no longer pass a flight physical. If you have a driver's license, you can get a sport pilot license. Did I mention I have spent several evenings drinking with Sen. Stevens.)

Plus, the guys making the aircar are also making it GPS & ladar autopilot-only, except for the last 15 feet of altitude. Also, nifty thing about thrust-lift - the last 10'-20' are the most efficient. Put turn signals on it, and drive it in ground effect, and it's the smoothest road-car around.

The primary reasons for heliports are that Rotors need extensive clearance both for operation and parking, and rotors are thunderously loud; ducted fans are far quieter, have a 0-clearance need, and are relatively quiet.

The airblast isn't all that bad, especially if it lands in street then pulls over while in ground effect. Add a plenum, and the outside air-blast is much reduced.

I don't know about elsewhere, but in Alaska one can actually get road-plates for a GEV. (I only know because I've seen them on one, going down the road in Kenai. Same kind of plates as snowmobiles.)

Uber's thing is a VTOL-plane - and that's going to need heliports, sure — noise factor alone, just like the V-22 Osprey — but once a personal air vehicle can land in a parking spot without waking up the neighborhood, political pressure will eliminate the heliport as a requirement.

Remember: it's rich and powerful folk who will be buying them, and they tend to get their political way in most systems.

The safety concessions might be an autopilot tied into central flight control. Essentially, FAA computer-run drones with passenger seats. The Chinese ehang passenger drone is already in use in China. 20 minutes/charge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCbGwxYiWug (company)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Hm-rmLQcU (US NBC)
Not ducted, but duct those fans, you increase thrust and safety. (at a minor weight and hefty cost penalty)
NBC notes that Dubai is in fact going for a self-flying taxi service using these.
 
Sorry, but I disagree vehemently.

I wouldn't expect anything less from you. :D

The next time you're outside in an actual urban area, look up. Look at all the wires running between all the telephone poles. Look at the height of the buildings. Look at how close they are to each other.

The places with the population and "money" density necessary to support such a service already have a very crowded air space. Crowded not only by other users, but physical objects too. Buildings are close together, have multiple stories, and create vortexes when the wind blows. VTOL or not, you are not going to be landing any sort of aircraft in that.

This service isn't going to be carrying people in West Cheddar, Vermont or East Walrus, Alaska. It's going to be carrying people in NYC, Tokyo, Shanghai, and the like. It's going to carrying people where preexisting density has created the gridlock the vehicles are meant to bypass.

Hell, Uber's own press release shows the vehicles using dedicated pads instead of curbside service. Who are we to second guess them?
 
Last edited:
LA, Detroit-metro, San Diego, Anchorage, Portland, Seattle/Tacoma - all of these have VAST spans of low-height buildings. With VTOL, you only need your clearance vertically for TO/L. Fly up, Fly over, drop down.

Those wires are not a big issue, and in the downtown areas, the wiring is mostly underground, not elevated, anyway. In Portland, Seattle/Tacoma, and Detroit-metro, the biggest issue is the overhanging trees in the neighborhoods. To which the solution is slightly more complex:
taxi to the intersection, take off straight up, fly over the top of the buildings (the already required outside TO/L is 500' AGL (150m), fly to the nearest intersection, hover over the intersection (say, 50m/165'), trigger the demand switch (probably using a directional radio - cost about $50, but will be charged $5000 because it's for an aircraft; receivers will be charged about $1000 because government, probably paid for by license fees on the triggers), then taxi in ground effect to the driveway.

Infrastructure costs for adding a directional radio receiver, or even a ladar trigger, are MUCH lower than adding heliports.

The combination of cost, and demand... and that the business model is being worked on for a curb-to-curb air taxi in greater Portland, and that the wealthy neighborhoods will be the only ones needing it at first... and those tend to be less visible wiring...

There's no economic sense in heliports everywhere, and Uber's going to run into that as soon as it starts looking for places to build heliports. Tall buildings are not the easiest things to land on (ships at sea seem to be, but for the same reasons but flopped relative importance - constant motion and unsteady airflow), and if they weren't built for a helipad, the structural modifications will be expensive. And the Heliports everywhere has to still do the same vertical issues.

Now, in Anchorage, downtown is almost all 2-lanes (12') plus two parking-lanes (8'), where it isn't 3 lanes plus 2 parking lanes (5th & 6th ave). so we're looking at 40' to 52' of above road. The sidewalks are another 8' (4' minimum each side, some areas 6'), and the limit on new construction is 3 stories — by law, not just zoning regulations — and the old construction has at least 50' clearance. Not an issue in downtown for helicopters to fly between the buildings (the police and news do so not too infrequently).
Portland has likewise similar 50'-500' AGL having 50' side-to-side in downtown. (Yes, I've looked up in downtown Portland.)

Smaller cities like Albany, Corvallis, and Eugene, Oregon, all have plenty of spaces open enough to transition from flight to taxi-in-ground-effect. Just add the needed turn signals and brake lights (triggered by the laser altimeter detecting a slowdown in transverse speed), and you're good to go.

Mind you, Uber's design looks like a medium haul - say, 30-200 km trips. Short haulers are going to look more like a sports car, less like a plane, and be the 20-40 km range. (treble that for gasoline, in both cases.)
 
... heliports everywhere...


I never should have used that term because you can't look past it.

No heliports. Designated landing/takeoff areas like the taxicab stands of old.

And Detroit? There will be people in Detroit using the service? I don't think a flying car service is going to take EBT...
 
3.jpg


Most likely use for cheap rugged air transports.

Within urban areas they might establish landing areas on top of buildings with an elevator to the garage, since trying to land on a crowded street sounds super unsafe.

Likely anything that's mobile and motorized will get a transponder in the future, with a remote override, and will have an autopilot, optimized to find the fastest and safest route to your destination, and the possibility of taking your electronic environment with you, tends to remove the motivation to just step on the accelerator.

In the context of Traveller, I doubt most families can afford an air/raft, at best a beloved legacy that gets inherited and passed from generation to generation, so cheaper alternatives will be utilized.
 
I have major problems seeing them in downtown Chicago And that does not even count the Elevated train, or the wind tunnel effect of the buildings. Have they been tested in extremely tight quarters with 50 mile an hour wind gusts?
 
I have major problems seeing them in downtown Chicago And that does not even count the Elevated train, or the wind tunnel effect of the buildings. Have they been tested in extremely tight quarters with 50 mile an hour wind gusts?

The article hints at the air-taxis probably being a part of a larger ecosystem. So air-taxi to Navy Pier/Lakefront Airport/Greektown/River North (Uber’s helipads) then a traditional ground car into the Loop proper. Probably there are several buildings in the Loop that can and do host a helipad but your point is pertinent as the wind gusts are definitely non-trivial.

Even though that may sound somewhat tedious I can imagine international execs taking an air-taxi from O’Hare to Lakefront Airport then a car to the Board of Trade, turning a 90 minute trip into a 20 minute one.
 
The article hints at the air-taxis probably being a part of a larger ecosystem. So air-taxi to Navy Pier/Lakefront Airport/Greektown/River North (Uber’s helipads) then a traditional ground car into the Loop proper. Probably there are several buildings in the Loop that can and do host a helipad but your point is pertinent as the wind gusts are definitely non-trivial.

Even though that may sound somewhat tedious I can imagine international execs taking an air-taxi from O’Hare to Lakefront Airport then a car to the Board of Trade, turning a 90 minute trip into a 20 minute one.

What Lake Front Airport? Meigs Field was plowed up by Richey Daley quite a few years ago. I would not hold my breath on trying to get another one in place.

Then there are things like sleet storms, blizzards with zero visibility, and fogs with ditto coming in off of the Lake with essentially no warning. Landing even an air duct vehicle on the Lakefront in the middle of a blizzard, with the duct blast sending large quantities of snow into the air is not something to be considered casually. As for the tilt-rotor job, land one of those in the middle of an intersection in downtown Chicago, and you will be decapitating quite a few pedestrians, who give right-of-way to nothing.

Finally, how does operating an electric flying vehicle in the middle of a fast-moving thunderstorm line work?
 
In the 80s I saw a medical chopper drop down right outside our ER. This was in-between 3 10-story buildings and was obviously hot enough to require that instead of the landing pad a few hundred yards away (or maybe the pad was out of service).



What could be a hotshot life or death situation could become routine for an autopilot.


A few blocks from there a hotel had it's own pad and stationed chopper for several years. I could see hotels and office complexes vying for pad space offerings, free facilities or even incentives to have the most convenience while it was a hot new and limited service. Then it would transition to 'expected' and any facility that didn't have one is on it's way to second class status.
 
I never should have used that term because you can't look past it.

No heliports. Designated landing/takeoff areas like the taxicab stands of old.

And Detroit? There will be people in Detroit using the service? I don't think a flying car service is going to take EBT...

Given the aircraft Uber is proposing, it's going to need 10m squares or more.

Given the 4x5m open rotor the Chinese are already putting into trials, that's going to need dedicated landing spaces with several m clearance beyond due to the open rotors.

Its not that it's your term; it's the appropriate term for the needed safety space for any/every open-rotor design.

An open rotor necessitates a relatively secure access for safety reasons, as the rotors are a lethal risk to careless bystanders. That means marked off, and enforced vacancy of, landing areas. That means dedicated landing zones - helipads/heliports.

The ducted fan designs, at least the few I've seen on various documentaries, being more car sized and shaped, and presenting a much lower threat risk, won't need the dedicated stand; they're not the same level of risk, nor the same level of needed infrastructure to mitigate that risk.

Uber's shown design is comparable to a double-wide or triple-wide load - not going to be safe downtown, even if the landing stand is present. It's not a V-22, but it's still more than 8m wide - and that's assuming a 1.5m cockpit width - plus the rotor extension.

Ehang's is about 1.2 lanes wide - looks like about 4 x 5m (roughly 13' x 16') - still oversized - but reasonable for being able to land pretty much anywhere that traffic will yield, including most private driveways and many downtown plazas and parking lots - but the open rotor design is a safety hazard.

Take Ehang's, bring the rotors closer abeam, and put them in nacelles. Then you have a device which, while generating a good blast of wind, is reasonably safe to have in traffic for short periods.

Or, with a bit more of a mass-hit, have them swing-out for flight mode, in for landing amidst traffic in a parking spot.

Putting Uber's, even with the rotors ducted or in a nacelle, downtown is just going to be tight. It's going to need a dedicated pad, due to blocking 3-4 lanes worth. You're right to a point - in that the Uber design will require a pad, even with safety-increases from enclosing the props - simply because the form-factor is wrong for the environment and the task. It won't be "Air travel at push button" - it will be "Make appointment for departure in an hour from pad X, and schedule me a driver to get to the pad."

Meanwhile, beasts more like the Ehang can, and will, be able to negotiate the downtown districts, and, once the rotors aren't exposed, can be reasonably allowed to land in extant parking places. In areas with major plant overhang, you'll need a little infrastructure to make use of the intersection to get under the trees... but you won't need the dedicated landing space.

Once you have the downtown connection to the wealthy burbs, you're in like Flynn. In Anchorage, that's 5-20 km. Geneva Woods and Roger's Park are about 5 km from downtown. Sand Lake and Jewel Lake both have some wealthy neighborhoods, and are 10-15km out from downtown. Bayshore (stupidly expensive) and the Hillside (insanely expensive - almost LA levels) are about 20 km out.
Corvallis lacks any visible "wealthy burbs" - but has some surprisingly well-heeled college students (thanks, OSU; can we get the *'s off the *ing roads?), and being able to hop around the Corvallis area is going to be a status symbol for the wealthier students.

Uber's design won't work well in either the Corvallis/Albany area nor in Anchorage. Nor in Portland - Portlanders love their tree shaded neighborhoods. Seattle/Tacoma also has many tree-lined neighborhoods - the wealthier, the more likely...

As for Detroit... note I said detroit-metro. dozens of cities across a six-county area in search of a common identity. Still a huge conurbation, even if City-of-Detroit (0.6 M people) is the land of urban homesteading. Still, the overall area is "thriving"... and 4.3 million people. And much of the metro area is rolling waves of suburb.
https://patch.com/michigan/rochester/detroit-population-continues-decline-metro-area-still-strong (webpage article)
For fairness, I have kinfolk and friends in the Detroit Metro area. And that's not counting Windsor, Ontario, south across the water.

I've seen LA, San Francisco, and San Diego - and yeah, lots of wires in some neighborhoods - but the wealthy ones don't tend to have a lot on street. Flying over LA rather than driving through it has been a stated dream of several wealthy (including some notably eccentric) celebrities. Not all of hollywood has a love affair with cars like Mr. Leno does.

Now, some urbanizations of low density will be perfect for the smaller "hail a drone" - teens in the outlying areas of, oh, say, Wasilla, Kenai/Soldotna (Alaska), Alsea, Adair, and Lebanon (Oregon), many places on the Hawaiian Islands (except Oahu... NAS/NSY Pearl Harbor and MCAS Kaneohe will create blockout zones for national security... but drone tours of Oahu are likely going to be all the rage - Helo-tours already are a common touristy thing.)
 
If Uber thinks that they are going to be calling operators of air taxis independent contractors, they need to quit dreaming and encounter the Real World.

Air Taxis are not going to be cheap. You are going to be looking at the cost of a light plane as a minimum, or more. That means that Uber is going to find itself in the air service business, with all that entails, including liability for its product. Then there is the ability to pump a massive charge of electricity in a very short time into those batteries. That is going to mean dedicated charging areas, which can handle massive changes of power draw. What happens when your aerial Uber is running into a 30 mile an hour head wind, and finds itself running short of juice well short of its destination, and has to land while it still can? Is Uber going to run a mobile charging service, with some pretty big generators on trucks? What happens the first time some Uber air taxi operator decides to push his or her luck, and looses, leaving some dead passengers and/or dead on the ground? Does anyone want to guess what the insurance costs are going to be?

How is say, Chicago, going to react the first time one of the air taxis brushes a downtown office building and sends a few dozen plate glass windows screaming earthward until the unsuspecting pedestrians, killing one or two or more? The answer to that should be easy. No more air taxies allowed in Chicago air space, with the air taxi driver indicted for vehicular homicide, and the lawsuits against Uber for wrongful death flying out of the courthouse windows.

I will not even get into the issue of air space sharing with O'Hare and Midway.
 
If Uber thinks that they are going to be calling operators of air taxis independent contractors, they need to quit dreaming and encounter the Real World.

Air Taxis are not going to be cheap.

The smaller drone based ones are in the same range as luxury automobiles, currently. It's well within the realm of doable. (mind you, general aviation planes, like the Cessna 172, are about $190,000. But that's got 5 hours endurance or more, and 600 miles range, burns 80/88 or better avgas)

Note that Uber (and Ehang, and all the other serious folk working on it) are NOT saying they're going to be hiring owner-pilots - they're going to be remote programmed autopilot, with some limited interface aboard, and most likely an anticollision system built in.

Plus, the FAR's limit civil recoverability for anything other than malicious intent or pilot negligence.

The city might try to ban air-taxis, but the FAA controls all air-flight authorization from ground up... if the FAA approves it, the city has to suck it up.

The FAA is, within the US, the hardest hurdle.

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=76240 (2014 FAQ.)
 
I suspect that the FAA is simply going to consider anything that the various companies come up with in the same category as helicopters, which basically they will be, as they will be vertical take-off and landing aircraft carrying passengers. That will mean a pilot with a commercial helicopter license, transponder for Air Traffic Control and subject to full Air Traffic Control rules, and all required safety features.

They will come under the following FAA Directorate. Emphasis added. They will come under the "powered-lift aircraft" category.

FAA regulations and policy related to engineering certification of rotorcraft and powered-lift aircraft

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/rotorcraft/

When you add what it is going to cost to get the FAA to certify any of these ideas, you are no longer in the luxury car class. You are looking at a minimum of $200,000 a copy and probably a lot more, which means that you are not going to be using these aircraft, and they are aircraft, as casual taxis. Is Uber will to cough up the cash that it will take to get FAA certification? We are talking multi-millions of dollars here.
 
I suspect that the FAA is simply going to consider anything that the various companies come up with in the same category as helicopters, which basically they will be, as they will be vertical take-off and landing aircraft carrying passengers. That will mean a pilot with a commercial helicopter license, transponder for Air Traffic Control and subject to full Air Traffic Control rules, and all required safety features.

They will come under the following FAA Directorate. Emphasis added. They will come under the "powered-lift aircraft" category.



https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/rotorcraft/

When you add what it is going to cost to get the FAA to certify any of these ideas, you are no longer in the luxury car class. You are looking at a minimum of $200,000 a copy and probably a lot more, which means that you are not going to be using these aircraft, and they are aircraft, as casual taxis. Is Uber will to cough up the cash that it will take to get FAA certification? We are talking multi-millions of dollars here.
They already have a separate category for drones. Have had since 2014.
 
Back
Top