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TL Expansion, or lack of...

I'd argue that the military tech level is much higher in Israel than it is in Saudi Arabia. That won't be obvious to the average person, as it's a measure of TL for the government rather than the citizen.

The Saudia have Eurofighter Typhoons, Blackhawks, stealth frigates and a sate of the art air defence system. I'm not sure what it is you think they're lacking.

Where Israel does score is in it's home-grown military industrial sector, but the Saudis have bought in top-shelf kit. SA isn't going to develop anything like the Tavor or Merkava any time soon, but that's nothing like a full TL difference.

Does that man the Saudis could stand toe-to-toe with Isreal? Absolutely not, the Israelis would utterly humiliate them in detail, but that's due to training, discipline and a meritocratic culture not technology.

Simon Hibbs
 
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That duke Gates quote is a riff on William H. Gates III saying (in about 1984), "640k should be enough for everyone."
 
The Saudia have Eurofighter Typhoons, Blackhawks, stealth frigates and a sate of the art air defence system. I'm not sure what it is you think they're lacking.

Where Israel does score is in it's home-grown military industrial sector, but the Saudis have bought in top-shelf kit. SA isn't going to develop anything like the Tavor or Merkava any time soon, but that's nothing like a full TL difference.

Does that man the Saudis could stand toe-to-toe with Isreal? Absolutely not, the Israelis would utterly humiliate them in detail, but that's due to training, discipline and a meritocratic culture not technology.

Simon Hibbs


TL isn't about what you can buy, it's about what you can build and maintain on your own.

The oil rich Saudis can afford top shelf gear. Can they build it on their own? No, and they don't want to. Can they maintain that gear without importing the parts? No again, and again because they don't want to.

Just because you can afford High Tech gear, and possess high tech gear because you imported it, doesn't mean your TL is as high as your neighbor that does develop and maintain their own.
 
Nearby Rethe would love to get a Class C starport, but every study commissioned by the Starport Authority (headquartered on Regina) finds such an investment to be unsupported. Rethe would like to develop an industrial base, but the big banks on Regina are unwilling to extend needed credit given the checkered history of the world's dictatorship.

And so on, and so forth.

Actually, I am working ;) very hard to get a C class PUBLIC starport to Rethe. The members of a Shipping Cartel use their PRIVATE spaceports to move the goods needed by Rethe and they fight against improving the overcrowded public starport as a way to interfere with prospective competition.

As to TL-8, let me tel you that our business have enough market to fully justify the loan and the banks would be willing to pay for greater automation and reduce cost... but you are right, they have problems with me:p... I have about 16 billions peoples to put to work and I favor labor intensive processes...that is why I am a charismatic dictator:D

;)I know that the little black card in my BBB confers no canonical weight to my TU, but since the emperor told me to take care of that world... I will use I rather than He when talking about my peoples' beloved dictator ;)

have fun

Selandia,
Lord Rethe
 
TL isn't about what you can buy, it's about what you can build and maintain on your own.

I know that's a popular view, but think that definition of TL is completely useless in practice. It tells you nothing useful about a world and what it will be like when you visit it. As has been discussed preiously on this thread it is also flatly contradicted by all the low population, high tech worlds in the Imperium, or as created by the world generation system. Certainly the definiton of TL in MGT is not compatible with that interpretation, though some earlier editions may have been less clear-cut.


Simon Hibbs
 
You could also have mercenaries manning high tech equipment, which has been known to happen.

This would be especially true for planets with an economy dominated by resource extraction and export.
 
That's if he's asking, "How did a TL12 world become the subsector capital?" He could also be asking, "How did a subsector capital fail to improve its tech level?"

This has been discussed before, but Capital just means the seat of the government, and does not need to be the most important planet in the subsector. Historical/political reasons may make a socondary planet the Capital, and that may well not be enough to make it gain economical/population preeminence against the main plane on it.

We have many xamples in Earth where Capitals (mainly in federal countries subdivisions) are not the main cities in their territory, having (so to say) an Efate equivalent that outweigths the Capital in population, economical significance, or both.

Just a few examples:

In US:
  • Albany is New York state's Capital, while NYC would be the Efate equivalent
  • Baton Rouge is Louisiana's Capital, while New Orleans would be its
    Efate equivalent
  • Sacramoento is California's Capital, while Los Angeles, San Diego or San Francisco would be its Efate equivalents
  • Springfield is Illinoils' Capital, while Chicago would be its Efate equivalent[
  • Tallahasse is Florida's Capital, while Miamy would probably be its Efate equivalent/LIST]

    In Spain:
    • Alava is Euskadi's Capital, while Bilbao would be its Efate equivalent
    • Mérida is Extremadura's Capital, while Badajoz would be its Efate equivalent
    • Santiago de Compostela is Gallicia's Capital, while La Coruña would be its Efate equivalent

    And sure there wil lbe more examples in other countries I know less about...
 
That's if he's asking, "How did a TL12 world become the subsector capital?" He could also be asking, "How did a subsector capital fail to improve its tech level?"

This has been discussed before, but Capital just means the seat of the government, and does not need to be the most important planet in the subsector. Historical/political reasons may make a socondary planet the Capital, and that may well not be enough to make it gain economical/population preeminence against the main plane on it.

We have many xamples in Earth where Capitals (mainly in federal countries subdivisions) are not the main cities in their territory, having (so to say) an Efate equivalent that outweigths the Capital in population, economical significance, or both.

Just a few examples:

In US:
  • Albany is New York state's Capital, while NYC would be the Efate equivalent
  • Baton Rouge is Louisiana's Capital, while New Orleans would be its
    Efate equivalent
  • Sacramoento is California's Capital, while Los Angeles, San Diego or San Francisco would be its Efate equivalents
  • Springfield is Illinoils' Capital, while Chicago would be its Efate equivalent
  • Tallahasse is Florida's Capital, while Miamy would probably be its Efate equivalent

In Spain:
  • Alava is Euskadi's Capital, while Bilbao would be its Efate equivalent
  • Mérida is Extremadura's Capital, while Badajoz would be its Efate equivalent
  • Santiago de Compostela is Gallicia's Capital, while La Coruña would be its Efate equivalent

And sure there will be more examples in other countries I know less about...
 
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I know that's a popular view, but think that definition of TL is completely useless in practice. It tells you nothing useful about a world and what it will be like when you visit it. As has been discussed preiously on this thread it is also flatly contradicted by all the low population, high tech worlds in the Imperium, or as created by the world generation system. Certainly the definiton of TL in MGT is not compatible with that interpretation, though some earlier editions may have been less clear-cut.


Simon Hibbs

Please explain how this is not how MGT sees it.

Directly from the MGT core roles (bolding is mine):

"The Technology Level measures the average technology presence
on the planet, and gives an idea of local production and repair
capability
. Trade with offworlders may bring in advanced technology;
on average, a rich individual can afford technology two or more
levels higher than the planetary average.
The government may also
have access to higher-technology items.

A planet’s technology may be one or more levels higher or lower in
a particular field, such as Medicine, Communications, Weaponry,
Ship Construction, Power Generation, Computers and so forth."
 
This has been discussed before, but Capital just means the seat of the government, and does not need to be the most important planet in the subsector.
No, but being the seat of government does give a world an advantage in becoming the most important planet in the subsector. Still, as I said, I don't claim that it's impossible for Regina to have a lower tech level.

Historical/political reasons may make a secondary planet the Capital, and that may well not be enough to make it gain economical/population preeminence against the main plane on it.
I don't think that having a lower tech level than Efate automatically make Regina a secondary planet.

We have many examples in Earth where capitals (mainly in federal countries subdivisions) are not the main cities in their territory, having (so to say) an Efate equivalent that outweigths the Capital in population, economical significance, or both.
But do you have any examples where the capital has employed a lower level of technology than the rest of the country? Cities and worlds are not the same and drawing analogies between them is fraught with problems.


Hans
 
No, but being the seat of government does give a world an advantage in becoming the most important planet in the subsector. Still, as I said, I don't claim that it's impossible for Regina to have a lower tech level.

Yet, this advantage may not be enough to overcome other planets in population, economical significance or TL, though surely it helps

I don't think that having a lower tech level than Efate automatically make Regina a secondary planet.

Lower TL and Lower Pop. Even so, maybe secondary is not the best word. What I meant was less econocmically significant.

But do you have any examples where the capital has employed a lower level of technology than the rest of the country? Cities and worlds are not the same and drawing analogies between them is fraught with problems.

Not sure, depending on what do you consider employing lower TL (and, off course, I don't know about every case in the world) ;), but sure in many of those cases I cited the Efate equivalent can build and repair higher TL than the Capital.
 
Re: the outpost tech situation, I am put in mind of Virginia City Nevada, so much wealth being pulled out that the finest products of the day available on the planet were shipped there, top flight entertainment- and new mining technologies invented.

http://www.onlinenevada.org/articles/virginia-city-and-early-nevada-mining


Now of course the mines are played out and it has just tourism value, a candidate for why a planet might hit a certain TL then just stay there.
 
Please explain how this is not how MGT sees it.

Directly from the MGT core roles (bolding is mine):

"The Technology Level measures the average technology presence
on the planet, and gives an idea of local production and repair
capability
. Trade with offworlders may bring in advanced technology;
on average, a rich individual can afford technology two or more
levels higher than the planetary average.
The government may also
have access to higher-technology items.

A planet’s technology may be one or more levels higher or lower in
a particular field, such as Medicine, Communications, Weaponry,
Ship Construction, Power Generation, Computers and so forth."

Note that the phrase 'measures the average technology presence' is a flat unqualified statement that says nothing about where the technology is produced, but Tech Level only 'gives an idea' of local production and repair capability.

I'm not sure why you highlighted the bit about affording higher tech items. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a nice guideline and I'm a big fan of it, but if TL measurs average tehnology presences, clearly it's possible there will be items of higher or lower TLs in use and this elaborates on that implication.

I still stand by my utter uselessness argument against TL measuring only production and repair capability. I'm not one to obsess over the precise wording of rules when coming to my own judgement of the rules, especially when the wording of the rules from previous editions is so comprehensively contradicted by the actual presentation of the setting, as in this case.

How does T5 define TL?

Simon Hibbs
 
How does T5 define TL?

In an article published in Imperiallines #7 about UWPs (which is a slightly updated version of an article published by Marc some time ago), it is made explicit that Government, Law, and TL are all indicators of what the traveller to a world is likely to experience as a visitor to that world.
 
TL is a hard concept to nail down. For me it is like '⌧ography' ... I just know it when I see it.

I travel fairly regularly in the Caribbean and Central America on cruises (It get's me away from phone contact with work). What is the TL of Mexico? I can start out in a tourist port and buy fine watches and electronics by the armload (finances allowing) ... then I can travel less than a km and find operating vehicles older than most of what is available in my local scrap yard ... then I can travel an hour by van to visit some ruins and pass a man carrying a bunch of bananas up the side of a mountain to a hut that looks straight out of the stone age (with a 50% chance that the roof will be made of rusty corrugated metal.) That's a real world place with people living from TL 1 to TL 7+ within an hour's drive. If I visit the city, I would say that Mexico is TL 7/8 (like Florida, where I live). If I visit the mountains, I would say Mexico is TL 1 to TL 5.

In Traveller [In My Traveller Universe], I use TL as a tool to describe a place. What follows may or may not apply to YTU and probably does not apply to the OTU, but it works for me.

TL is first and foremost a measure of average wealth. More money allows you to buy more and better stuff. Rural India may have access to imported Mercedes Benz S Class cars, but few of the people can afford any car at all, so the 'character' of the area is probably closer to TL 4-5 in transportation (both vehicles and animals). An IMTU world of TL 5 would probably be an area where one would expect to find both draft animals and internal combustion vehicles sharing the roads. Some places would have electricity and telephones, but not everyone would have it. You could import a TL 8 'cell phone' with advanced data capabilities and WiFi and Bluetooth, but you will not find cell towers throughout the world ... so unless you are within sight of the starport, you get no bars on your phone. When your mercenary plugs his laser backpack into an outlet in his hotel to recharge, he blows the fuse and the floor he is on goes black until they can replace the locally made glass fuse or reset the imported circuit breaker. 220V 3Phase electric service is not available in town and those buildings that do have power make due with 110V 1 Phase power ... the mercenary needs to buy a charging station to trickle in the 110V local power, store it in batteries and then provide the 220V power to charge the laser backpack. The charging station might need to draw power for 4 hours to recharge a backpack in 1 hour. This is just one example of how the TL of the world will impact your experience while visiting the world.

Viewing TL as a measure of general wealth of a world, changes the question in the opening post from "Why isn't everyone TL 14-15?" to "Why isn't everyone rich?" As population increases, it becomes much more expensive to raise the standard of living of every person ... and frankly, who has the incentive to try? Who has an incentive to bring two cars, cell phones, public schools, gated communities, Walmart, large screen TV, etc. to every poor and remote village on the Earth?

I like the thought that any specific place on a world could be up to 2 TLs higher or lower than the Average TL of the world. My hypothetical TL 5 world mentioned earlier would have rural villages and poor areas that felt closer to TL 3, and the University near the Hospital and Starport might feel closer to TL 7.


THE HIGH COST OF IMPORTS: A lesson from a friend in Jamaica ... He can buy any video projector that I can, but at 5 times the cost. The government does not want all of its hard currency pouring into other nations to purchase imported goods and drive the local economy into a recession, so "Luxury Goods" (defined as whatever the government says is a luxury good) have a 400% tax added to the price. So not only does he earn less money for the same job than I do, but he pays 5X as much for imported high tech goods. So for a TL 9 world, an air/raft might cost 4 years salary for the average worker and for a TL 5 world, importing that same TL 9 air/raft might cost 40 years salary for an average worker. In more practical terms, someone earning 4000 credits per month on a TL 9 world might just afford to 'drive' an air/raft, while only those earning over 40,000 credits per month on a TL 5 world could afford to 'drive' an imported air/raft. That does not mean that there will be no air/rafts on a TL 5 world, but it does mean that the streets will not be clogged with air/rafts on a TL 5 world ... which is why it is TL 5 and not TL 9.

Even if the world does not restrict imports with tariffs, exporting Resources is a hard way to pay the bills. Let's sell Special Alloys at the market price of Cr 200,000 per ton (or dTon, let's not split that hair). With TL 9+ laser mining and fusion powered processors, it probably costs about half that price to extract and refine the ore into marketable alloys. So at TL 9, it will cost you Cr 100,000 to produce 1 ton (or dTon) of Special Alloy that will allow you to purchase Cr 200,000 worth of imported goods. At TL 5, extraction and refining is more expensive and time consuming. Looking at fuel costs, TL 5 hydrocarbon fuel is 7 times as expensive by volume and over 570 times as expensive per MW as TL 9 Fusion. So that same 1 ton (or dTon) of Special Alloy that will allow you to import Cr 200,000 worth of Advanced Technology will cost you Cr 100,000 to produce at TL 9 and Cr 5,700,000 to produce at TL 5. Each 1 credit of imported technology will cost over 28 credits in local currency. That 100 credit Super-Widget that you see in an Imperial Catalog and really want to buy, will cost you Cr 2,850 worth of labor to purchase ... and if the government wants to engage in protectionism to avoid sucking all of the cash out of the economy, then the 100 credit Super-Widget will cost you Cr 2,850 plus an 11,400 credit tariff ...
Price in catalog = 100 credits.
Cost to you = 14,250 credits.

Don't get too bogged down with the specific numbers. They were based on one set of Traveller data and assumptions. Starting from another set of data and assumptions will yield different specific values. What is important ...
  • TL is what material goods are dominant, which is a measure of wealth.
  • Raw Materials can be exported to pay for high tech imports, but are more expensive to produce at lower TLs.
  • Governments may not want all of their wealth flowing to another world and may use tariffs to reduce imports.
  • Imported goods will always cost a lot more than the same goods at their point of manufacture.
  • You cannot just raise one area much above the local TL before the need for infrastructure will require TL advancement in other areas (TL 9 lasers will not plug into TL 5 power grids without additional equipment).

Agree or disagree, but that is my contribution to the topic.
 
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Note that the phrase 'measures the average technology presence' is a flat unqualified statement that says nothing about where the technology is produced, but Tech Level only 'gives an idea' of local production and repair capability.

I'm not sure why you highlighted the bit about affording higher tech items. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a nice guideline and I'm a big fan of it, but if TL measurs average tehnology presences, clearly it's possible there will be items of higher or lower TLs in use and this elaborates on that implication.

I still stand by my utter uselessness argument against TL measuring only production and repair capability. I'm not one to obsess over the precise wording of rules when coming to my own judgement of the rules, especially when the wording of the rules from previous editions is so comprehensively contradicted by the actual presentation of the setting, as in this case.

How does T5 define TL?

Simon Hibbs

You still have not said how MGT sees TL different from the other editions. That quoted text is how the other versions see it.

T5 offers the most in depth discussion of the ideas of TL, and various reasons why High Tech societies collapse or don't advance. Perhaps you should borrow someone's copy. It starts at about p501 but is all over the book.
 
CT S3 Spinward Marches:
The standard technological level for
most of the interior of the lmperium is in a range between A (10) and D (13) with
a general maximum of F (15); toward the fringes (such as the Spinward Marches)
this range of levels is approximately 6 to B (1 1). It is important to note that any
world with a tech level of 7 or greater is space-faring, and any world with a tech
level of 9 or greater is star-faring.

Technological Level: As a general indication of the degree of sophistication in
equipment, in manufacturing ability,
in general style of life
, the technological
level code is perhaps the best single
measure. Within certain limits, the
technological level can be compared to
certain periods or ages on Terra. The
technological level table makes these
comparisons for the sake of convenience
and rapid reference. It is important to
understand that technological level does
not necessarily imply that a world is
capable of creating or manufacturing
materials at that tech level; merely that
such items are present.
Consider, for example, that many cities use equipment
which is of a certain sophistication, for
example, modern computers- but there
is no corresponding manufacturing ability
for such items in most cities.
 
My memory of CT was that it's definition was more tied to manufacturing, but I'm happy to be wrong about that.

I wonder where the (somewhat) popular conception that TL is all about manufacturing capability comes from. Someone seems to mention it in almost every discussion of TL I've come across online. If it's never been there in the Traveller rules, it seems odd that it's so common.

Simon Hibbs
 
My memory of CT was that it's definition was more tied to manufacturing, but I'm happy to be wrong about that.
The definition in the rules WAS tied to manufacture (and equated it with the ability to maintain and repair, which is not actually always the same). Mike's quote (which I likewise am pleased to learn of) is from a setting module.


Hans
 
Tech level is a generalization, not accounting for research facilities developing next generation prototypes, but based on that society's ability to maintain that level.
 
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