TL Expansion, or lack of...

[pendragonman]

Evidently there are reasons why this doesn't work. Remember, this is not a logical exercise in figuring out how things would really be; it's a handwaving exercise in explaining why things are as they are.


Using imported labor to run and maintain the factory. The only thing that's cheaper on Louzy is the labor, and you can't maintain a TL13 factory with TL8 knowledge. So the batteries are still going to be 12 times more expensive than the local ones. It would be even easier to manufacture the batteries on Efate and import them to Louzy.


Access to the knowledge is not restricted by the lack of electronic devices. TL8 can provide perfectly good electronic reading devices, and at lower tech levels there's always books. Whatever keeps a world at less than TL15 is not lack of access to textbooks.


12 times less income is 12 times less income. Selling cheap raw materials still isn't going to pay for very many TL13 end products.


Hans

I don't often agree with Hans, but this is one of them. I tried, apparently unsuccessfully, to point out just a few of the reasons why one world would be at a lower TL than another.

Hans is right, this is not a logical exercise to make a real world result. What we have here, besides a failure to communicate, is a game mechanic result. One you would recognize as the result of a random set of output from a 2d6 roll.

It would appear to me, and you seem to missing the point entirely, is that individual worlds are equivalent to countries here on earth, regardless of size of population and how much a planet wit 20 billion pop outweighs the entire planet Earth.

Now, answer your own questions:

Bangladesh has a huge population. Is the TL of Bangladesh higher, lower or equal to the U.S.? While there are high tech pockets, on average they are lower.

What is the reason they are still behind the U.S. in TL if it is so obvious that they could just import the manufacturing capacity to make it themselves?

Another comparison: Is Germany higher or lower TL than Greece? Why?

Is Japan higher or lower TL than China? Why?

Do you yet see what I am getting at?

 

[simonh]

Bangladesh has a huge population. Is the TL of Bangladesh higher, lower or equal to the U.S.? While there are high tech pockets, on average they are lower.

Guided missile naval frigates, Guided missile MRLS, surface to air missiles, future soldier system in the works, man portable air defence systems. Their military seems fairly well equipped. A rapidly developing telecoms industry, which I have witnessed myself. I visited the country 10 years ago when working for a telecoms contracting company.

They're not savages, they're just poor. They have fairly modern stuff, just not much of it. Yes you travel a lot in hand-pulled carts, but I've used those in London.

In fact they're a classic example of a mixed-tech society but where it counts, where their economy depends on high tech and their national defence is concerned, they scrape together the funds they need to get the job done with the level of kit they need to be competitive. I'd say at they are on average maybe 1 TL behind the US.

Simon Hibbs

 

[pendragonman]

Guided missile naval frigates, Guided missile MRLS, surface to air missiles, future soldier system in the works, man portable air defence systems. Their military seems fairly well equipped. A rapidly developing telecoms industry, which I have witnessed myself. I visited the country 10 years ago when working for a telecoms contracting company.

They're not savages, they're just poor. They have fairly modern stuff, just not much of it. Yes you travel a lot in hand-pulled carts, but I've used those in London.

In fact they're a classic example of a mixed-tech society but where it counts, where their economy depends on high tech and their national defence is concerned, they scrape together the funds they need to get the job done with the level of kit they need to be competitive. I'd say at they are on average maybe 1 TL behind the US.

Simon Hibbs

But still behind. If high tech everything automatically works better and therefor everyone should be the highest tech level possible, then why are they still behind?

And what about my other examples?

What about the TL difference between Israel and Saudi Arabia?

Why is a TL difference "allowed" anywhere?

 

[pendragonman]

Guided missile naval frigates, Guided missile MRLS, surface to air missiles, future soldier system in the works, man portable air defence systems. Their military seems fairly well equipped. A rapidly developing telecoms industry, which I have witnessed myself. I visited the country 10 years ago when working for a telecoms contracting company.

They're not savages, they're just poor. They have fairly modern stuff, just not much of it. Yes you travel a lot in hand-pulled carts, but I've used those in London.

In fact they're a classic example of a mixed-tech society but where it counts, where their economy depends on high tech and their national defence is concerned, they scrape together the funds they need to get the job done with the level of kit they need to be competitive. I'd say at they are on average maybe 1 TL behind the US.

Simon Hibbs

And another thing, when two planets were compared before, it was very clear that one was much poorer than the other, but the poster continued to argue that the TL difference wouldn't happen, someone would do something to fix it, and that is just not the case.

 

[Selandia]

U shaped effect

Is there a U shaped distribution of TL?

Low tech items are present at all tech level
Knives, TL 1 are still used at TL8 and seems likely to still be used at TL D
Chair, Table, Cloth etc. They may be more durable, produced cheaper, thanks to high tech, but they are there, low tech invention.

Mid tech disapear as it is replaced by high tech.
Steam engine is now replaced by internal combustion
Analog and CRT TV are gone (exept in pawn shop for a dime)
the military bet their life on their gear and always want the best

etc

What TL 5 item is produced on a TL A world? Note, I am not talking of the production process but of the item itself. Robot may produce knives but they are unlikely to produce Cathode Ray Tube TV set.

Have fun

Selandia

 

[kilemall]

Guided missile naval frigates, Guided missile MRLS, surface to air missiles, future soldier system in the works, man portable air defence systems. Their military seems fairly well equipped. A rapidly developing telecoms industry, which I have witnessed myself. I visited the country 10 years ago when working for a telecoms contracting company.

They're not savages, they're just poor. They have fairly modern stuff, just not much of it. Yes you travel a lot in hand-pulled carts, but I've used those in London.

In fact they're a classic example of a mixed-tech society but where it counts, where their economy depends on high tech and their national defence is concerned, they scrape together the funds they need to get the job done with the level of kit they need to be competitive. I'd say at they are on average maybe 1 TL behind the US.

Simon Hibbs

Well again, I have to point out the tremendous leap in transport capacity and speed with the advent of railroads/steamships, then airplanes, then jumbo jets/container ships, that has made this possible.

If one does a comparison between 1815 and 2015 as a jump between say TL3 and TL7, then one sees that each TL is an order of magnitude in transport speed, manning and cost per ton to move the same (once you get past the capital costs of the infrastructure of building, maintaining and using a container ship profitably compared to a wooden sailing ship).

If TL9 to TL 13 was like TL3 to TL7, the TL13 Type A Free Trader would end up being a 20000 ton ship with Jump-10 and using 1% fuel per jump number, probably some doped up derivative of L-Hyd to get better performance which costs more per ton and ties one to fueling infrastructure, but less cost overall to move a ton of cargo.

The order of magnitude leap in cost per ton-mile that our 'advanced' transportation has achieved makes global TL possible.

Now, imagine that we were still stuck with sailing ships. We could use steel and make bigger ships, but the motive power is still sails.

That's what we have with Traveller jump tech as laid out in the various versions (to my knowledge), after the 'great leap' of being able to jump at all, improvement is incremental and comes with that jump fuel cost.

In that situation, would Bangladesh be as well equipped?

Another factor is that there was a political/economic system in place that deliberately kept colonies as sources of raw material and cheap labor/forces and in locked in market/thrall to the 'owner' nation- the imperial mercantilist system.

This system did not really break apart until two devastating world wars AND the rise of continental superpowers that did not have that 'business model'.

Britain was never going to allow India to industrialize on it's own, for instance.

Had those world wars never occurred and Bangladesh and it's local 'neighbors' not won nationhood, would Bangladesh be at the TL you postulate?

Could be that in our Imperium a fiefdom may encompass several planets to make a mini-mercantilist setup, with choices for the fate of a planet's trade economy made for political/control reasons rather then purely rational self-interested economics of the planetary denizens.

Still another example is Japan, who intentionally maintained isolationist policies and a 'low' tech level, until shocked awake by Perry's guns and going on a holy crusade of modernization that led to Pearl Harbor and going up against the biggest industrial power of all.

Cultural/political factors have weighed in as much or more then 'rational economic actor' logic over the course of human history. They can easily explain why the disparate TL situations all on their own.

 

[simonh]

And another thing, when two planets were compared before, it was very clear that one was much poorer than the other, but the poster continued to argue that the TL difference wouldn't happen, someone would do something to fix it, and that is just not the case.

I don't buy that argument either, as I think my recent posts show.

What about the TL difference between Israel and Saudi Arabia?

I have travelled to both countries many times and there isn't a noticeable tech level difference. They drive the same kinds of cars, fly the same kinds of planes, their soldiers tote similar guns, use the same kinds of mobile phones on the same kinds of networks, etc. The only noticeable difference is it's just slightly easier to get bacon in Tel Aviv (and Ramallah, although that was ham). The only reasons Saudi doesn't have nuclear reactors or bombs are geopolitical and financial, not technological. Even Iran could have nukes by now if it wasn't for sanctions. Is North Korea more advanced than Saudi Arabia?

As for Japan and China, in some ways China is considerably more advanced than Japan these days and is at least their equal. It builds it's own stealth fighter jets, has a very creditable manned space program and have their own silicon chip technology, as well as The Bomb.

To figure tech level I think it helps to imagine if a country or planet was going to acquire a new technological item or facility, at what TL would they acquire it? If Saudi Arabia decided to build a silicon chip fabrication plant, it would be the equal of anything Israel has, but it wouldn't be as productive. They just can't be bothered.

In fact I take my comment about Bangladesh being a TL behind the US back. They're at the same TL, but the USA is at the upper edge of TL 7 say and Bangladesh is at the lower edge of it. Mostly they both have the same stuff, but Bangla has more lower TL stuff and USA has more higher TL stuff, but they're in the same overall bracket. A visitor from outer space or another era would say that they have roughly the same stuff, but Bangladesh is a lot poorer, but then again it depends which part of each country they visited.

Simon Hibbs

 

[simonh]

Could be that in our Imperium a fiefdom may encompass several planets to make a mini-mercantilist setup, with choices for the fate of a planet's trade economy made for political/control reasons rather then purely rational self-interested economics of the planetary denizens.

Still another example is Japan, who intentionally maintained isolationist policies and a 'low' tech level, until shocked awake by Perry's guns and going on a holy crusade of modernization that led to Pearl Harbor and going up against the biggest industrial power of all.

I'm sure you're right, there are many reasons why a world might have a persistently lower TL than other worlds. Effective interdiction is one extreme, trade restrictions and monopolies could heavily slow development and limit offworld contact. If you don't have an electricity grid, any advanced technology requiring electricity will be hard to use meaningfully. Solar powered calculators are one thing, but solar powered FGMPs? I don't think so.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Adam Dray]

I have travelled to both countries many times and there isn't a noticeable tech level difference.

I'd argue that the military tech level is much higher in Israel than it is in Saudi Arabia. That won't be obvious to the average person, as it's a measure of TL for the government rather than the citizen.

 

[Condottiere]

Another way to look at it would be, if the country or region can (re)create the industrial base to manufacture products of that tech level, if they don't have it established already.

 

[Spartan159]

Something I would like to see is rules for increasing TL on a back water planet, if I'm a land owner I want to see the place improved. Surely I could import tools, manufacturing and information, especially if I had my own starship.

 

[kilemall]

Something I would like to see is rules for increasing TL on a back water planet, if I'm a land owner I want to see the place improved. Surely I could import tools, manufacturing and information, especially if I had my own starship.

That's a big topic, and since each planet would be its own 'thing' I don't know that you can have a set of canned rules for that. It's practically a campaign in itself.

Maybe we should have a thread with taking a case planet, postulate the politics that make such a project possible and desirable, and run it through the wringer.

Keep in mind, somebody's business plan is predicated on the status quo. But of course therein lies adventure, conflict and patrons.

 

[Brian Smaller]

I have been really enjoying reading this thread on our TL 7/8 internet while heating ourselves with a TL0 method - gathering wood from fallen trees and burning it.

 

[whartung]

Hans is right, this is not a logical exercise to make a real world result. What we have here, besides a failure to communicate, is a game mechanic result. One you would recognize as the result of a random set of output from a 2d6 roll.

Of course it's the result of a game mechanic. EVERYTHING is a result of a game mechanic. If you want to fly the "game mechanic" banner, we may as well reduce our discussions to typo's in the rules.

It would appear to me, and you seem to missing the point entirely, is that individual worlds are equivalent to countries here on earth, regardless of size of population and how much a planet wit 20 billion pop outweighs the entire planet Earth.

You're doing that whole "mechanic" thing again, right? "They're not really planets, they're countries that look like planets, and randomly generated countries at that."

But discarding the mechanic thing, that's not true, is it? Countries are resource constrained due to national and natural borders. Planets, ostensibly, are not. Country Japan has little oil and natural gas, relying almost entirely on imports. Planet Japan, ideally, would not have that problem. (The discussion about the distribution and concentration of natural resources across planetary systems can be on some other thread -- for all we know, Earth is unique in the richness of it's carbon based energy sources, or gold, or uranium, or whatever. For all we know, all of the other planets are just made of Dirt™. But for now we can project that Earth-like planets are, well, Earth-like. Oh, wait, we have ubiquitous Fusion power -- who gives a flying leap about carbon based power. "What's fusion power?" -- Random Louzy Citizen)

Bangladesh has a huge population. Is the TL of Bangladesh higher, lower or equal to the U.S.? While there are high tech pockets, on average they are lower.

What is the reason they are still behind the U.S. in TL if it is so obvious that they could just import the manufacturing capacity to make it themselves?

Another comparison: Is Germany higher or lower TL than Greece? Why?

Is Japan higher or lower TL than China? Why?

Another has addressed much of this. You'll notice that most of the delays in technological and societal progress has been due to internal political strife. But even then, this is over a short period of time.

China is in the midst of it's industrial revolution as we speak. The West had it's IR mostly during the steam age. China is having it during the atomic and information age and part of the process is moving from an agrarian economy to an industrial one combined with the urbanization of the population. There's a reason China built the equivalent of 2 power plants per WEEK in contrast to how few the US is building. And that only slowed down 5 years ago!

The GDP of the developing countries are rocketing practically straight up. Look at most any graph and you see them make practically right angle turns.

So the issue is not that these places exist. The question is how do they continue to exist, in the midst of high technology societies. How do they persist and maintain their existence over hundreds of years, generations of people, not 10 or 20 years. How do they sustain their "primitive" ways while resisting the influences.

And that's all fine and good for more lower tech societies, smaller populations, or those with (what I would consider) oppressive governments, that are either very isolationist or suppressive or both. Information, as we are learning, can be extremely subversive.

But, Regina? TL-12? A sub sector capital? Seriously?

"We're TL-12 and we like it." -- T-Shirt in a Starport gift shop. Matching hat available.

"Jump 3 should be enough for anybody" -- Duke Gates.

"TL-12 Engineering was good enough for my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, it's good enough for me!" -- Freshman Engineering Student at Regina Tech, Class of 1115.

"How come I have to buy this new Engineering book for Cr 200 when it's got the same stuff as my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather's?" -- Same student in the campus bookstore.

"Oh, we're going to Regina, better bring the power adapters, they still haven't caught up." "Well It's only been a few hundred years. Some day they'll catch on." -- Overheard discussion between two unidentified Imperial staff.

That's utter nonsense.

Maybe once you hit Jump 1, it just doesn't matter. TL 10, 11, 15…now you're just splitting hairs. Fine, I'd buy that and simply make Regina TL-15 by fiat. "You are now TL-15, go forth and import some technicians, tools, and textbooks."

So, yea, a random mechanic created this galactic pin point in the universe. But the background story doesn't fit. What are the Imperial Historians hiding from us? How does a 1000 year old society, with access to untold wonders, that advances said wonders, let these backwaters remain? And if you want "Cuz the Emperor says so", fine. What about the Zhodani, Aslan, or Vargr? (Well, maybe not the Vargr) They seem to be more slanted toward the success of the larger social order than the Imperial Laissez-faire "as long as I get my taxes, what do I care" system.

But in the Imperium, why aren't the Nobles clamoring for it? "What's the point of being rich if I can't spend my money anywhere because of exchange rates!" More trade, more taxes, more shiny things.

None of it makes sense.

Yea, yea, I know. "random mechanic" It's all meaningless.

 

[Garnfellow]

But, Regina? TL-12? A sub sector capital? Seriously?

Tech Level is so much more than just simple knowledge of tech. It is also access to resources, political will to invest, and opportunity. You go to a big city in Japan or Korea and come back to the United States, you feel like you are going backwards in TL. Where is our ubiquitous high-speed rail, or wi fi? Why do our airports look like dingy, run-down outhouses in comparison? It's not that we in the US don't know how, or couldn't afford to invest in such infrastructure.

The 3I is a system of inherent inequalities, and it doubtless contains all sorts of political and social mechanisms that only reinforce these inequalities, in total defiance of pure logic. A cornerstone of Traveller is that humans of the future are very much like humans of today. And humans of today are trapped within cultural constructs that we are at pains to even recognize or critique, much less change.

It seems logical that tech would flow to all parts of the Imperium evenly. Just like it seems logical that wealth and political control would flow evenly, just like it seems logical to make reasonable investments in infrastructure. But societies don't always (ever?) act in rational, self-enlightened ways.

I guess what I am saying is I have no problem imagining a TL 12 world like Regina as a subsector capital. Maybe it's a world that has long lost a legitimate claim to power, but continues to leverage control of institutions like the navy, and the starport, and the banks, and the nobility to maintain its grasp on the subsector.

Yes, you really do need to bring your own power convertors to Regina because the mainworld has refused to upgrade to the latest GK-4300 specifications. But where else in the subsector are you going to get funding for your new robot factory? The food, at least, is good if expensive and a bit old-fashioned.

Nearby Rethe would love to get a Class C starport, but every study commissioned by the Starport Authority (headquartered on Regina) finds such an investment to be unsupported. Rethe would like to develop an industrial base, but the big banks on Regina are unwilling to extend needed credit given the checkered history of the world's dictatorship.

And so on, and so forth.

 

[rancke]

Tech Level is so much more than just simple knowledge of tech. It is also access to resources, political will to invest, and opportunity. You go to a big city in Japan or Korea and come back to the United States, you feel like you are going backwards in TL. Where is our ubiquitous high-speed rail, or wi fi? Why do our airports look like dingy, run-down outhouses in comparison? It's not that we in the US don't know how, or couldn't afford to invest in such infrastructure.

That's if he's asking, "How did a TL12 world become the subsector capital?" He could also be asking, "How did a subsector capital fail to improve its tech level?"

I guess what I am saying is I have no problem imagining a TL 12 world like Regina as a subsector capital. Maybe it's a world that has long lost a legitimate claim to power, but continues to leverage control of institutions like the navy, and the starport, and the banks, and the nobility to maintain its grasp on the subsector.

I do have a bit of a problem with it, but I can manage to accept it. Regina has been the seat of the dukes of Regina for 500 years; as long as they don't mind, it's not going to stop being the duchy capital just because Efate overtakes it in population, wealth, and tech level.

Nearby Rethe would love to get a Class C starport, but every study commissioned by the Starport Authority (headquartered on Regina) finds such an investment to be unsupported. Rethe would like to develop an industrial base, but the big banks on Regina are unwilling to extend needed credit given the checkered history of the world's dictatorship.

My take on Rethe's starport classification is that its recent population explosion [NB, not canon] has put such a strain on its space construction abilities that the starport can't guarantee services in a timely manner. Maybe you can get refined fuel right away; maybe you can get your annual maintenance in just 14 days, etc., etc.. But odds are that you can't, so the Scouts downgraded the starport to D until Rethe gets its act together again.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Of course it's the result of a game mechanic. EVERYTHING is a result of a game mechanic. If you want to fly the "game mechanic" banner, we may as well reduce our discussions to typo's in the rules.

It's also a well-known classic SF trope. Two tropes, actually: the world that would like to upgrade its tech level but can't afford to and the world that is satisfied with things the way they are. Anderson, de Camp, Norton, Piper, Vance and other writers of fiction that is the base on which Traveller is built.

But, Regina? TL-12? A sub sector capital? Seriously?

Well, it does have a space TL of 13.

"Jump 3 should be enough for anybody" -- Duke Gates.

Duke who?

Anyway, you can buy all the J5 ships you need from Efate (possibly J6 ships too if Efate has space TL15).

"Oh, we're going to Regina, better bring the power adapters, they still haven't caught up." "Well It's only been a few hundred years. Some day they'll catch on." -- Overheard discussion between two unidentified Imperial staff.

Imperial standards would make TL15 tools work with TL12 power sources.

Maybe once you hit Jump 1, it just doesn't matter. TL 10, 11, 15…now you're just splitting hairs. Fine, I'd buy that and simply make Regina TL-15 by fiat. "You are now TL-15, go forth and import some technicians, tools, and textbooks."

And that's the real problem right there. You notions may be 100% sound, but if we accept them, we have to scrap the OTU and start over. I'd rather not do that and I don't think there's much chance that Martc Miller would allow it. So, as I already said once, the problem isn't to figure out what TL Regina would logically have; the question is how to explain the TL it does have.

Mind you, if you can persuade Marc Miller to retcon Regina's TL to 15, I wouldn't object. But until you do, it's kind of futile to insist that it should logically be 15. Because it isn't.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of retconning inconsistencies in order to improve the verisimilitude of the setting. Just not at the cost of devastating the setting in the process.


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

Also depends on the driving forces that advance a local tech level.

A corporation might be willing to do it on it's own to gain a competitive advantage over it's rivals and/or dominate a market. Like Intel.

A government might sponsor research and development in order to catch up, maintain or increase it's military technological edge over it's rivals.

Governments might also incentivize commercial advances through research grants, tax policies or other forms of subsidies.

 

[rancke]

Also depends on the driving forces that advance a local tech level.

A corporation might be willing to do it on it's own to gain a competitive advantage over it's rivals and/or dominate a market. Like Intel.

A government might sponsor research and development in order to catch up, maintain or increase it's military technological edge over it's rivals.

Governments might also incentivize commercial advances through research grants, tax policies or other forms of subsidies.

All very true, but not nearly as interesting as what forces prevent the advance of a local tech level.


Hans

 

[simonh]

Re, Regina's TL I think we're looking at this wrong. TL 12 is about Imperial average. Regina isn't a weird outlier on the edge of the curve, it's smack in the middle. It's the weird outlier TL 15 planets that are unusual.

Bear in mind TL 12 is pretty advanced. As a baseline they can build J-3 drives and planty of other tech that's standard for much of the Imperium, just not the really super-advanced stuff. With the 'wiggle room' of one or two TLs, they probably have local industries in a few economic sectors that meet TL 13 or 14 standard, and it's not as if TL 15 equipment is likely to be banned or utterly unknown.

TL is an overall essessment of a planet as a whole. The starport or capital city may well be outliers with more high tech stuff, but if most of the cities have ageing transit, power generation and industrial infrastructure, and if rural areas are particularly backward then that will drag the overall TL down. Bear in mind that for TL 12, even TL 10 automated hydroponics systems and meat cloning are low tech. Maybe they just have a lot of that sort of stuff and never needed to upgrade it because it meets their needs, or there are environmental, societal or economic factors that tie them to some specific technologies that are considered to be relatively low tech.

Edit: The disparate tech levels in Traveller are one reason I think it works best as a small-ship setting. I know it can make for some plausability issues, but if interstellar travell is a relatively small-scale affair for whatever reasons, IMHO the setting becomes much more satisfying. If trade is mostly conducted using traders of a few hundred tons, out of the way systems get just a few visits a year and mega-freighters are unknown then the lack of massive technological transfers between planets makes more sense.

Simon Hibbs