• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

TL 8 system shuttles

rancke

Absent Friend
Does anyone know of any TL 8 shuttle designs? I have this world that orbits at 0.42 AU around a star with a jump limit of .62 AU, and I'm wondering what a trip from a space station at the solar jump limit to the world would cost. Also, what G rating the passenger shuttles would have. (I've calculated the time to fly 0.2 AU to 30.39 hours at 1G and half that at 4G (but that doesn't take the turnaround times into account)).


Hans
 
Tech 8's capable of maneuver drives up to 5G per High Guard, so the stock 95 dT 3G shuttle is well within their capabilities. In fact, any standard small craft except the 6G ship's boat is within the capacity of their yards.
 
It depends on the Traveller versión you're using.

For MgT, in HG (my versión is LBB and is on page 100) there's a TL 7 Antique Small Craft (based on the RW US Space Shuttle, I guess).

About the canon shuttle, in MT at least, it has some elements whose TL is above 8 (as grav plates, etc...).
 
It depends on the Traveller versión you're using.

For MgT, in HG (my versión is LBB and is on page 100) there's a TL 7 Antique Small Craft (based on the RW US Space Shuttle, I guess).

About the canon shuttle, in MT at least, it has some elements whose TL is above 8 (as grav plates, etc...).

At TL8, they light up a "please fasten your seat belt" sign instead. ;)
 
Tech 8's capable of maneuver drives up to 5G per High Guard, so the stock 95 dT 3G shuttle is well within their capabilities. In fact, any standard small craft except the 6G ship's boat is within the capacity of their yards.

Yes, but none of the standard small craft are designed for passengers. How much space does each passenger take up for a 15 hour flight? For a 31 hour flight?


Hans
 
Yes, but none of the standard small craft are designed for passengers. How much space does each passenger take up for a 15 hour flight? For a 31 hour flight?


Hans

1/2 Td for anything under 48 hrs, IIRC, then 2Td.
 
1/2 Td for anything under 48 hrs, IIRC, then 2Td.

Thank you.

I realize that I expressed myself clumsily. What I was asking for were system craft designs other than the standard ones (none of which serve my needs). What I need is one or more passenger shuttles with 1G drive and one or more passenger shuttles with 4G drives. Preferrably designs that are optimized (I remember seeing something somewhere about the standard small craft being very expensive).


Hans
 
At TL8, they light up a "please fasten your seat belt" sign instead. ;)

If those signs take the same space and power than MT grav plates and inertila compensors they will be quite large and bright signs ;).

Yes, but none of the standard small craft are designed for passengers. How much space does each passenger take up for a 15 hour flight? For a 31 hour flight?

Once again, it depends on versión:

-In CT (HG, page 35) it was (as Aramis says) 1/2 a ton per passenger couch. Time limit is 24 hours, if expected to spend more on it, staterooms must be provided.

-In MT (RM, page 82) seats take from 2 (Cramped) to 4 (roomy) kl, but if people are expected to spend more than 24 hour on the craft, extended accomodations (at least small saterooms, at 2 dton each) must be provided, and I'd advise at least roomy seats for more than 8 hours to avoid Tourist class syndrome, whose risk could probably be augmented by low/zero gravity.

- In MgT (LBB2:HG, page 61) acceleration couches take 1/2 dton each, and are told to be for short duration, but not specified what that means.

I don't know enough about other versions to tell you.
 
Last edited:
I'll rephrase my question:

Can anyone help me figure out reasonable ballpark figures for how much it would cost to ferry passengers across a distance of 0.2 AU by the cheapest and by the fastest way available? Note that fastest would involve 5G drives, since 6G requires TL 9.

I'm aware that different ship design systems will produce different answers, but I'm hoping they won't be wildly different.


Hans
 
Can anyone help me figure out reasonable ballpark figures for how much it would cost to ferry passengers across a distance of 0.2 AU by the cheapest and by the fastest way available? Note that fastest would involve 5G drives, since 6G requires TL 9.

I hate to say that, but I'm afraid at TL 8, due to the lack of grav plantes and (even more important) inertial compensators, the maximum G will be closer to 1 g tan 5 G for such a tavel, as I doubt 5 G could be endured for the long time needed.

See that the lower the acceleration, the longer the time you can endure it , but also the longer time you'll have to. I guess the calculations will be quite complex to reach a compromise, but I guess anything over 1.5 will be unhealthy at best.

Acording to table in LBB2 page 10, to reach 45 illion kilometers (0.3 AU) you'd need 37 hours at 1 G and 16.7 at 5 G, so 0.2 AU could be about 24 for 1 G and 12 at 5 G. Could people endure that?
 
Last edited:
I hate to say that, but I'm afraid at TL 8, due to the lack of grav plantes and (even more important) inertial compensators, the maximum G will be closer to 1 g tan 5 G for such a tavel, as I doubt 5 G could be endured for the long time needed.

Certainly not. For passenger travel 1G internal would IMO be the standard.

But where is the TL of inertial compensators established? HG simply states that to achieve 5G you need TL 8.

Acording to table in LBB2 page 10, to reach 45 illion kilometers (0.3 AU) you'd need 37 hours at 1 G and 16.7 at 5 G, so 0.2 AU could be about 24 for 1 G and 12 at 5 G. Could people endure that?
As I said in my original post, I've calculated the time to fly 0.2 AU to 30.39 hours at 1G and half that at 4G. I've no idea if people could endure it, but I doubt wealthy tourists (the majority of the passengers) would endure it.

It would certainly simplify things if I only needed to calculate with 1G passage.


Hans
 
I'll rephrase my question:

Can anyone help me figure out reasonable ballpark figures for how much it would cost to ferry passengers across a distance of 0.2 AU by the cheapest and by the fastest way available? Note that fastest would involve 5G drives, since 6G requires TL 9.

I'm aware that different ship design systems will produce different answers, but I'm hoping they won't be wildly different.


Hans
THey will be.

Note that I ran the costs per cargo ton for MGT large craft; The Small Craft are likely to be similar costs. See Fixing the Economics
 
Certainly not. For passenger travel 1G internal would IMO be the standard.

But where is the TL of inertial compensators established? HG simply states that to achieve 5G you need TL 8.

According to MT:RM page 81 (the only place I know about where life support is detailed in several ítems), both Grav platesand inertila compensators ar TL 10.

As I said in my original post, I've calculated the time to fly 0.2 AU to 30.39 hours at 1G and half that at 4G. I've no idea if people could endure it, but I doubt wealthy tourists (the majority of the passengers) would endure it.

It would certainly simplify things if I only needed to calculate with 1G passage.

According to my calculations, at 1.5 G the time will be 24.8 hours, and at 1.65 G, 23.68 hours (as those are less tan 24 hours, you can just have couchs for the people, allowing you about 4 times the same passengers than if you need small saterooms). I guess (not sure, though) that this could be endured for a day...
 
According to MT:RM page 81 (the only place I know about where life support is detailed in several ítems), both Grav platesand inertila compensators ar TL 10.

So at TL 8 you can build 5G craft but there are severe albeit unmentioned restrictions on using them. Yay for rules that don't leave out important bits.

According to my calculations, at 1.5 G the time will be 24.8 hours, and at 1.65 G, 23.68 hours (as those are less tan 24 hours, you can just have couchs for the people, allowing you about 4 times the same passengers than if you need small saterooms). I guess (not sure, though) that this could be endured for a day...
Passengers may have a choice, either cheap 1.65G shuttles or 1G shuttles costing about five times as much.


Hans
 
So at TL 8 you can build 5G craft but there are severe albeit unmentioned restrictions on using them. Yay for rules that don't leave out important bits.

How many Gs can a supersonic fighter on RW today accelerate, and yet the pilot would not support it for long time (I sincerely don't know)?

The 5-6 G under TL 10 I understand are for short duration combats, only for fighters, as, without the inertial compensators, they would not be endured by people (crew included) for anything but short bursts of time.
 
Last edited:
How many Gs can a supersonic fighter on RW today accelerate, and yet the pilot would not support it for long time (I sincerely don't know)?

Thaqt's why I said 'severe restrictions' instead of 'can't use'.

The 5-6 G under TL 10 I understand are for short duration combats, only for fighters, as, without the inertila compensators, they would not be endured by people (crew included) for anything but short bursts of time.
Makes sense. But then the rules should have mentioned that. It's a rather important feature of high-G maneuver drives, not just some fluff effect that can be ignored for game purposes.


Hans
 
How many Gs can a supersonic fighter on RW today accelerate, and yet the pilot would not support it for long time (I sincerely don't know)?

The F-22 with a 50% fuel load has a max acceleration of ~1.2 G's due to its very good thrust to weight ratio.
 
According to MT:RM page 81 (the only place I know about where life support is detailed in several ítems), both Grav platesand inertila compensators ar TL 10...

It can be useful to mine MegaTrav to fill out the missing CT holes, but it doesn't always work well. High Guard says you've got maneuver drives limited to 2G at TL7, 5G at TL8, and 6G at TL9+, and the power plants to power them occur at TL7, though they're big beasties. MegaTrav says maneuver drives aren't even available till TL9+; gravitic thrust systems and fusion power are likewise not available until TL9+. If you want to get to orbit in at TL 7-8 in MegaTrav, you're reduced to using Hard Times rockets. Meanwhile, CT supplement Traders and Gunboats is offering us a 20 dT launch at TL8, and the CT air/raft is also TL8 technology.

This is one of those instances where CT and MegaTrav don't mix well. Since there are clearly tech level discrepancies between High Guard and MegaTrav, my suggestion would be to take the High Guard G-limits as evidence of the tech at which compensators are available in that game.

As to economics, first principal is tech level: if it's in High Guard, it's the fusion plants that dictate economics, 'cause they get smaller and cheaper at higher techs. After that, I found 2G to be the best balance between speed and cost.

Let's take a 95-ton shuttle. I assume a cheap hauler: a bridge and no computer, no purification plant, flattened sphere hull, TL15. I did not factoring in the 2dT cabin crew accommodation for long-range transport; that does make a slight difference, but not enough to really change things much on a 95 dTonner. On the other hand, if you want to play with a launch or ship's boat, you want to include that.

At 1G, cost is MCr 11.14 in quantity, 72.1 dTons available space.
At 2G, cost is MCr 13.68 in quantity, 67.45 dTons available space.
At 3G, cost is MCr 16.34 in quantity, 62.7 dTons available space.
At 4G, cost is MCr 19.76 in quantity, 57.95 dTons available space.
At 5G, cost is MCr 23.18 in quantity, 53.2 dTons available space.
At 6G, cost is MCr 26.60 in quantity, 48.45 dTons available space.

Cost is a factor because, whether a company takes a loan or pays cash, they'll be looking for the highest return on investment. However, speed - or acceleration in this case - can compensate for higher cost and lower cargo space. If you can get there twice as fast, you can make twice as many runs in the same time. However, with the turnaround factor, we know that your travel time only decreases by the square root of your acceleration - you need four times the Gs to get there twice as fast.

So:
The 2G shuttle costs 1.23 times the cost of the 1G shuttle. It delivers 93.6% as much cargo 1.4 times faster: 132% more cargo delivered in the same time. The 2G is superior to the 1G.

The 3G shuttle costs 1.47 times the cost of the 1G shuttle. It delivers 87% as much cargo 1.7 times faster: 151% more cargo delivered in the same time. Contrasted with the 2G, it costs 1.19 times the cost of the 2G shuttle and delivers 93% as much cargo 1.22 times faster: 114% more cargo delivered in the same time. The 3G is not as cost-effective as the 2G, but it's a narrow thing: you might gain an advantage by offering faster service at a slightly higher cost, especially on longer runs.

From there it goes downhill: the faster you go, the more you cost and the less space you have for cargo. 6G is not cost-effective, but it can work if speed is top priority and you can charge extra for the privilege, so a 6G express shuttle is still a workable idea.

You're wanting data on a TL8 shuttle:

At 1G, cost is MCr 17.86 in quantity, 69.3 dTons available space.
At 2G, cost is MCr 27.36 in quantity, 61.75 dTons available space.
At 3G, cost is MCr 36.86 in quantity, 54.15 dTons available space.
At 4G, cost is MCr 47.12 in quantity, 46.55 dTons available space.
At 5G, cost is MCr 57.38 in quantity, 38.95 dTons available space.

Immediately clear is that the bigger fusion plant is making a much bigger cost and space difference.

The 2G shuttle costs 1.53 times the cost of the 1G shuttle. It delivers 89.1% as much cargo 1.4 times faster: 126% more cargo delivered in the same time. The 2G is inferior to the 1G for cost-effectiveness, delivering 1.26 times more but at 1.53 times the cost for the delivery vehicle. The 2G only starts being superior after it's recouped the initial investment - which at 27 million credits and 61 tons available space, is going to take a very, very long time. You can market speed if the market's willing to bear the added cost, that's a 22% markup on freight and ticket prices. People will like that; companies shipping a lot of cargo generally won't. So, you can run cargo in 1G's and passenger service in 2G's.

And then it gets worse from there. I wouldn't say the 3G is so much faster than the 2G that it's worth calculating the markup on that one. However, again you can go to the top-speed 5g for express transport if you've got a market willing to pay that much extra for it:

The 5G shuttle costs 3.21 times the cost of the 1G shuttle. It delivers 56.2% as much cargo 2.2 times faster: 126% more cargo delivered in the same time. If you marked up prices 2.56 times for the privilege of express transport, it would be as profitable as a 1G. Steep markup; you'd need a lot of traffic before you developed a big enough express market niche to support this kind of shuttle. More likely on the really long runs, for example where 2.2 times meant the difference between a 3-day trip and a week in space. Companies will pay the extra cost if it means their executives are spending less paid time sitting in a seat or a stateroom doing nothing. However, companies aren't going to see a point in it for their routine cargo unless it's something that, "really has to be there overnight," to borrow the ad phrase.

Of course, if someone had a TL15 shuttle flown in from Rhylanor, they'd make an absolute killing in the local market.

This was done with High Guard Shipyard 2.0. I love that program.
 
Thanks a lot, Carlo. This is just the kind of help I was hoping for.

This is one of those instances where CT and MegaTrav don't mix well. Since there are clearly tech level discrepancies between High Guard and MegaTrav, my suggestion would be to take the High Guard G-limits as evidence of the tech at which compensators are available in that game.

Or there are medical drugs available that make high G effects tolerable (an idea from George O. Smith's Venus Equilateral stories).

You're wanting data on a TL8 shuttle:

At 1G, cost is MCr 17.86 in quantity, 69.3 dTons available space.
At 2G, cost is MCr 27.36 in quantity, 61.75 dTons available space.
At 3G, cost is MCr 36.86 in quantity, 54.15 dTons available space.
At 4G, cost is MCr 47.12 in quantity, 46.55 dTons available space.
At 5G, cost is MCr 57.38 in quantity, 38.95 dTons available space.

Immediately clear is that the bigger fusion plant is making a much bigger cost and space difference.

The 2G shuttle costs 1.53 times the cost of the 1G shuttle. It delivers 89.1% as much cargo 1.4 times faster: 126% more cargo delivered in the same time. The 2G is inferior to the 1G for cost-effectiveness, delivering 1.26 times more but at 1.53 times the cost for the delivery vehicle. The 2G only starts being superior after it's recouped the initial investment - which at 27 million credits and 61 tons available space, is going to take a very, very long time. You can market speed if the market's willing to bear the added cost, that's a 22% markup on freight and ticket prices. People will like that; companies shipping a lot of cargo generally won't. So, you can run cargo in 1G's and passenger service in 2G's.
There's an extra consideration. A 1G passenger shuttle has to devote 2 T per passenger (small stateroom) whereas a 2G shuttle only needs to devote 0.5 T. So a 2G shuttle will definitely be cheaper.

For a first approximation, I'll ignore operating costs and assume the shuttle has to earn 6.25% of its cost p.a.. At 2G it should be able to make one trip per day, or 350 trips per year, with 120 passengers per trip, or 42,000 passengers per year. 6.25% of MCr27.36 is Cr1,710,000 or Cr41 per passenger per trip. Round that up to Cr50 and I think I've got the operating expenses covered too. And the occasional empty seat too.

The 1G trips seems to work out at Cr150 or Cr175.


Hans
 
...There's an extra consideration. A 1G passenger shuttle has to devote 2 T per passenger (small stateroom) whereas a 2G shuttle only needs to devote 0.5 T. So a 2G shuttle will definitely be cheaper.
...

Oops, forgot you were running that 0.2 AU route.

That's a 21 1/2 hour flight at 2G. I sincerely hope they have compensators, or at the very least sedate the people and put them in Attends. :D

Even with compensators, plan on having the seats recline fully so folk can sleep - half dTon still gives you plenty of room for that, I kind of assumed that was why we were given so much space in the first place - and plan on serving a couple of meals TV-dinner-style on trays. 21 1/2 hours is a bit of a stretch, but they'll do it if you make them comfortable enough.

Yes, the 2G's definitely your better bet for passenger service, but I'd still do freight at 1G. You only need the one cabin for the crew for freight service, taking an extra 9 hours isn't a problem for cargo, and shaving 20% off shipping fees means a lot when you're a big business shipping a lot of cargo.

Don't discount 5G if the traffic's high enough and you have the compensators. At Cr50, your 2G seat rates are nicely low, hoi polloi low, the kind of folk who are going out to take a low berth on an outgoing starship. There are folk that might be willing to pay Cr130 for a 14 hour flight instead of a 21 1/2 hour flight. You could offer a champagne-and-caviar flight for as little as Cr200-250 a seat, which isn't much if we're talking about a passenger who's about to pay Cr10,000 for the interstellar flight he's connecting to.

Assuming the compensators, you'd then have three classes of flyers: 1G freight haulers, 2G passenger flyers, and 5G champagne flyers.
 
Back
Top