• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

TL 8 system shuttles

Oops, forgot you were running that 0.2 AU route.

That's a 21 1/2 hour flight at 2G. I sincerely hope they have compensators, or at the very least sedate the people and put them in Attends. :D
I'm going to ignore the question, assuming there is some sort of solution, whether it is loading up on anti-gravitics or TL 8 inertial compensators or whatever.

Even with compensators, plan on having the seats recline fully so folk can sleep - half dTon still gives you plenty of room for that, I kind of assumed that was why we were given so much space in the first place - and plan on serving a couple of meals TV-dinner-style on trays. 21 1/2 hours is a bit of a stretch, but they'll do it if you make them comfortable enough.

All this was just so that I could write a single line in my writeup of the world. The world is the main subject. I'm only spending two paragraphs on the farport. And mostly because I've always been annoyed by the way Traveller writers have consistently ignored solar jump limits. ;)


Hans
 
By the way, I looked up the time limits: Seats are only good for 24 hours, or 12 in combat conditions.

Cranking the numbers for small craft using CT HG.... Costs are given per day by passage type. For regularly scheduled service, I'd round up travel time, then add a day. If a route isn't scheduled, I'd double that (to allow for the deadhead). Seats prices and trips under 24 hours, I'd add 1 hour for station to station prices, 2 for downport to downport. Breakeven Tonnage is the minimum hull that makes money at that rate. Baseline tonnage is the tonnage where a 30% profit is attained. Imperial calendar is used; Maintenance and payment is figured on 12 op months of a 13 month year, with 4 weeks down time allotted for annual maintenance.

Cargo1G2G3G4G5G6G
TL7-892150230357572
TL965101149217320599
TL135781112154211305
TL15496280101130168
Seat
TL7-8237266306369.5477
TL9223.5241.5265.5299.5351490.5
TL13219.5231.5247268296.5343.5
TL15215.5222231241.5256275
MP SO
TL7-856868484410981528
TL951458668281810241582
TL13498546608692806994
TL15482508544586644720
MP DO
TL7-8377435515642857
TL9350386434502605884
TL13342366397439496590
TL15334347365386415453
HP SO
TL7-8707881112115022147
TL9626734878108213912228
TL1360267476789310641346
TL15578617671734821935
HPDO
TL7-850562178110351465
TL94515236197559611519
TL13435483545629743931
TL15419445481523581657
Breakeven Tonnage
TL7-83535353535
TL9359595353535
TL13359595953535
TL15353595953535
Baseline Tonnage
TL7-86060656055
TL9708595959560
TL13657590959575
TL15606570808080


Edit: for comparison, 100Td opcosts with no profits...; note the jump due to bridge tonnage, larger staterooms, and engineer.
100
TL7-869.42117.24184.44285.78548.19
TL961.1496.58143.97210.59366.51591.15
TL1353.1377.36108.32149.26205.93346.06
TL1545.3659.4376.6798.26126.11163.40

Edit: discovered a SC bridge calculation error; corrected.
 
Last edited:
Where do you get the 30% profit figure from? The rate of return on a starship loan is one fifth of that.


Hans
 
Cranking the numbers for small craft using CT HG.... Costs are given per day by passage type.
Just to make sure that I am understanding the units in the table ...

Transporting cargo at 1G at TL 7-8 should cost 73 credits per dTon per day of travel.
Transporting passengers at 1G at TL 7-8 for up to 24 hours of travel time should cost 227.5 credits per seat (or half that if the ship makes 2 trips per day, 1/4 that if the ship makes 4 trips per day, etc.).
Transporting passengers at 1G at TL 7-8 for more than 24 hours of travel time should cost 530 credits per middle passage starship stateroom (4 dTons) per day of travel.
Transporting passengers at 1G at TL 7-8 for more than 24 hours of travel time should cost 358 credits per middle passage small craft stateroom (2 dTons) per day of travel.

Have I understood the tabes correctly?
 
... Cranking the numbers for small craft using CT HG.... Costs are given per day by passage type. For regularly scheduled service, I'd round up travel time, then add a day. If a route isn't scheduled, I'd double that (to allow for the deadhead). Seats prices and trips under 24 hours, I'd add 1 hour for station to station prices, 2 for downport to downport. Breakeven Tonnage is the minimum hull that makes money at that rate. Baseline tonnage is the tonnage where a 30% profit is attained. Imperial calendar is used; Maintenance and payment is figured on 12 op months of a 13 month year, with 4 weeks down time allotted for annual maintenance.

I'm not quite understanding this either.

Is this for the 95 dT shuttle?

What does, "For regularly scheduled service, I'd round up travel time, then add a day," mean? If it takes six hours, you round it up to a day and then add a day??

It might be helpful for the seated passage to be calculated by hour, so that a seat rate can be calculated based on the length of travel.

So ... a TL8 95t 1G shuttle costs MCr17.86. It needs to make MCr 0.893 annually to cover the mortgage. It needs to be overhauled annually at a cost of MCr0.01786. It needs to be fueled: one dTon every 4 weeks in service, MCr 0.006 for the year, I'm assuming they're not running the plant while they're overhauling it. There's no data on life support costs for short-hauling. It needs to be crewed: what does a boat pilot earn? So, needs to bring in MCr0.91686 annually, plus crew and life support costs to be determined, to break even - Cr2729 (plus the above) per day from its 69.3 dTons of space, a bit under 40 credits per dTon per day plus for cargo transport, assuming destinations within 24 hours. A wee, wee bit more for over, 'cause you have to make room for the cabin, pay the added cost of the cabin, pay for cabin life support. Crew costs add from half a credit to three credits per dTon per day for one crewman, depending on the pay rate for - if you're running the ship 24/7, then you need to quadruple that, 4 crew to fill a 160 hour weekly schedule, leave it down 8 hours weekly just to simplify the math. Mark up for whatever reasonable profit level you want after that.

I'm not understanding how you're arriving at the figures. I'm coming up short.
 
THe expected return is 30%; the numbers are based upon looking at the whole range of craft in 5 ton increments from 20Td to 95Td. (95 isn't the most efficient.)

I've "designed" them as pure cargo craft, with bridge and model 1, and 1 gun. A stateroom for the crewman is present.

Since no other rule is present, and the HG requires a Pilot, used the standard pilot salary.

Spreadsheet's too large to upload directly. 414 designs, plus the collations and then the conclusions. Only the latter of these are included above.

The cost shown is the cost per ton or passenger per day. I DO NOT MIX UNITS if I can avoid it on a single table. For short runs, it's easier to simply divide the day by the trip time; a run to orbit is about 1 hour, plus load/unload... figure the shuttle can get 6 runs a day. (probably with 2 crewmen on alternate shifts). Fuel costs

Adding gunners would increase costs noticeably.

A HG designed 95Td 1G shuttle needs 1Td of fuel; 3G to match the one in Bk2/TTB is 2.85Td of fuel (which should be rounded up to 2.9). It's not the optimal size, tho'.

Then there's the 30% profit margin on the optimal tonnage.

Here's the 95Td 3G design:
TL8TL9TL13TL15
nG, PPn3333
Tons95959595
TL891315
DesTL91214
Comp Model1000
Comp DesMod1
Tonnages
Bridge19191919
Computer1000
JD3.83.83.83.8
MD 1G7.67.67.67.6
PP11.48.555.72.85
Turret (1x1)1111
Fuel, Jump000
Fuel, PP2.852.852.852.85
SR2222
Cargo46.3550.253.0555.9
Overage0000
MCrCosts
Hull 6 SL7.67.67.67.6
Bridge0.4750.4750.4750.475
Computer2000
JD0000
MD 1G1.521.521.521.52
PP34.225.6517.18.55
Turret (1x1)0.20.20.20.2
SR0.10.10.10.1
MCr Total46.09535.54526.99518.445
Command0000
Plt1111
Nav0000
Engr0000
Gnny0000
Medic0000
Service0000
MoPymt192,063148,105112,48076,855
AM Share3,8422,9632,2501,538
Salaries6,0006,0006,0006,000
Fuel, 2xJump0000
Fuel, PP1425142514251425
LS, Mo4,0004,0004,0004,000
Monthly Cr207,330162,493126,15589,818
Per Ton7,404.642857142865,803.321428571434,505.535714285713,207.78571428571
Per Mo Cr/Td4473.143236.912378.041606.76
per day Cr/Td159.75115.6084.9357.38
% Monthly98989796

Other prices (seats, passages) have to include the costs for the Stateroom (and for HP, a steward). Note that the basal cost I used is figured not from the lowest cost by tonnage, but from the median with a 30% overage. Canon says 20 Ton launches are standard; they can't make money at the above rates, but 30T Ship's boats can at most TL's and G-ratings, so I'm good with them.

Also, keep in mind that a 95Td shuttle kitted for short run, and allowing 1 Td per passenger in cargo space (in case it's transferring a load of HP people to a ship) is carrying 46 passengers and 47.4 tons of cargo.

Also, Carlo: your working finances out in years rather than months is a rather nasty bit of obfuscation; all book expenses are listed PER MONTH, not per year. I did just discover a glitch, tho'... I got the bridge tonnage (and thus bridge costs) wrong. On the low side, I was. I'll edit in corrections .
 
Last edited:
That's the optimal rate of return over expenses on CT Bk2 ships at J1.

Figured out how? The rate of return I expect is 6.25% or even a bit less, assuming investments into system craft is safer than investments into starships (But I usually ignore that possibility).


Hans
 
Last edited:
...
Also, Carlo: your working finances out in years rather than months is a rather nasty bit of obfuscation; all book expenses are listed PER MONTH, not per year...

Obfuscation?? The major expense is a 40 year mortgage: "Standard terms involve the payment of 1/240th of the cash price each month for 480 months. In effect, interest and bank financing cost a simple 120% of the final cost of the ship, and the total financed price equals 220% of the cash purchase price, paid off over a period of 40 years." Routine maintenance is an annual expense. Between your 13-month calculations and the game's 12-month mortgage cycle, we seem to be shifting back and forth between a 12 month year and a 13 month year, so I opted to cut out the confusing element and go with the one item that was consistent between the two - the year. Did I miscalculate somewhere?
 
Obfuscation?? The major expense is a 40 year mortgage: "Standard terms involve the payment of 1/240th of the cash price each month for 480 months. In effect, interest and bank financing cost a simple 120% of the final cost of the ship, and the total financed price equals 220% of the cash purchase price, paid off over a period of 40 years." Routine maintenance is an annual expense. Between your 13-month calculations and the game's 12-month mortgage cycle, we seem to be shifting back and forth between a 12 month year and a 13 month year, so I opted to cut out the confusing element and go with the one item that was consistent between the two - the year. Did I miscalculate somewhere?

Canon says: 13 months to the year; 40 year mortgages with 480 monthly payments; only annual maintenance is an annual expense, and takes an average of 2 weeks.
 
Figured out how? The rate of return I expect is 6.25% or even a bit less, assuming investments into system craft is safer than investments into starships (But I usually ignore that possibility).


Hans

Figure the op expenses of a Bk1-77 pure cargo design small enough to fill with freight, divide that by tons of cargo for same ship, then compare to the freight income.

Note that realized profits will be less; few ships ever leave totally full.

Oh, and the optimal CT design was 800Td... standard hull for discount, and no 1000Td+ crew increases. (There being no 900 Td standard hull).
 
Canon says: 13 months to the year; 40 year mortgages with 480 monthly payments; only annual maintenance is an annual expense, and takes an average of 2 weeks.

I don't recall seeing 13 months mentioned anywhere.

Canon says the Imperial calendar doesn't have months. IMTU I have starship payments fall due on every day that is divisible by 30.


Hans
 
Canon says: 13 months to the year; 40 year mortgages with 480 monthly payments; only annual maintenance is an annual expense, and takes an average of 2 weeks.

Okay, but the two statements are in conflict.

Library Data, A-M:
Dating Systems. Three major dating systems are in use when referring to historical events— Terran, Vilani, and Imperial. A fourth system (Zhodani olympiads) is of passing interest.
... Terran years have 365 days and are considered a standard for length of year. Years are further subdivided into months and weeks, although these divisions have fallen into disuse outside the Solomani Sphere.
...Imperial dates count from the year of the founding of the Third Imperium,
specifying the year zero as a holiday year. ... Imperial dating uses a Julian system for specifying days. Each day in the year is consecutively numbered beginning with 001. Thus, in the year 1105, the first day of the year is 001-1105. Weeks of seven days and months of 28 days are used to refer to lengths of time, but rarely to establish dates."

480 months is not 40 years under Imperial convention; it's 36 years and 12 months. Canon doesn't mention having any sort of an annual holiday from the mortgage payment. Book 2 rules, if I recall, were adopted before there was much canon about the Imperium and its practices. They were based on the conventional Earth/Gregorian 12-month calendar that players are accustomed to - thus 480 months is 40 years. The Imperial calendar arrived later.

I don't know of any canon source that's settled the conflict, but there are several ways to handle it. One could, as Rancke suggests, make payments due every 30th day of the year. One could make payments due every 4 weeks and declare the 13th month a mortgage holiday month - no payments due that month. One could require payments every 4 weeks and ignore the Book-2 reference to a 40-year mortgage, with the mortgage paid off in 37 years. One could recalculate the payment period to cover 520 q-4-week installments instead of 480 installments - which does have the advantage of making them a little easier to meet. As there is no canon solution, any solution is by definition an IMTU solution, though the first clearly hews closest to canon intent than the others.

We can dicker till the cows come home but my estimate was based on a 52 week year, which is pretty much on target whether your year is 13 months and a day or 12 months and a 5-day. About the only mistake I can find is that some of the numbers assume income when there isn't any - in that month of down time. I didn't calculate for 800 dTonners because, as far as I know, he wasn't asking about 800 dTonners: an 800 dTonner implies daily traffic of 1400 or more passengers. I don't know if he's thinking about a starport with that level of passenger activity.

OK, revise:
TL8 95t 1G shuttle costs MCr17.86, needs to make MCr 0.893 annually to cover the mortgage.

Annual overhaul costs MCr0.01786.

Fuel costs: one dTon every 4 weeks in service, 4 weeks annual downtime planned for 2 weeks of overhaul and 14 days of random unexpected events through the year. MCr 0.006 for the year

No data on life support costs for short-hauling.

Crew costs: Cr 6000 for 4 weeks, we're going to be generous and pay the 4 weeks when it's not running 'cause we don't want our pilots wandering off to work for someone else. 6000 x 4 crew x 13 pay periods = Cr312,000 annual budget for crew. Likely to be other personnel needs, but we'll put that aside for the moment.

Annual break-even budget: 0.893+0.01786+0.006+0.312=MCr1.22886

Available working days: 336

Minimum income needed: 3658 daily

Cargo space available: 69.3 dTons, assuming no crew cabin.

Minimum income per dTon of space per day: about Cr53.

Optimal income per dTon of space per day: about Cr 69.

Factoring in a crew cabin adds about Cr 2 to that.
___
TL8 95t 2G shuttle costs MCr27.36, needs to make MCr 1.368 annually to cover the mortgage.

Annual overhaul costs MCr0.02736.

Fuel costs: 1.9 dTon every 4 weeks in service, 4 weeks annual downtime planned for 2 weeks of overhaul and 14 days of random unexpected events through the year. MCr 0.0114 for the year

No data on life support costs for short-hauling.

Crew costs: Cr 6000 x 4 crew x 13 pay periods = Cr312,000 annual budget for crew.

Annual break-even budget: 1.368+0.02736+0.0114+0.312=MCr1.71876

Available working days: 336

Minimum income needed: 5116 daily

Cargo space available: 61.75 dTons, assuming no crew cabin.

Minimum income per dTon of space per day: about Cr83.

Optimal income per dTon of space per day: about Cr 108.

We won't factor in a crew cabin 'cause this is supposed to be a passenger flyer.

So for Rancke's purposes we're getting cargo rates of about Cr 70 per dTon and passenger ticket rates of about Cr 54 per person. His Cr50 tickets cover costs nicely and give him a 20% profit margin, which gives him an annual profit of ~Cr 352,000 from which to fund any other infrastructure and pay the owners.

The 800 dTonner would indeed be more profitable, with 2.5% of tonnage in bridge instead of 20%, assuming there's traffic to support it. Also means a much lower percentage of personnel expenses. I'm getting minimum overhead of Cr55 per dTon per day for a 2G 800 dTonner, so the 800 dTonners support passenger tickets as low as Cr 36 per person with a 30% profit margin.

I think Rancke's more looking at what's reasonable for his setting. If his concept of the starport involves heavier traffic, he can scale up the size of his shuttles and scale down ticket prices proportionally and end up with something reasonable.
 
Okay, but the two statements are in conflict.

Library Data, A-M: [...]

Right you are. I never noticed that bit. All I remembered was that the treatment in MT:Referee's Companion made no mention of months.

480 months is not 40 years under Imperial convention; it's 36 years and 12 months. Canon doesn't mention having any sort of an annual holiday from the mortgage payment. Book 2 rules, if I recall, were adopted before there was much canon about the Imperium and its practices. They were based on the conventional Earth/Gregorian 12-month calendar that players are accustomed to - thus 480 months is 40 years. The Imperial calendar arrived later.

The 40 years figure is just as explicit as the 480 months figure. 480 months are 40 years, not 36 years and 12 months. It is, as you say, a canon conflict. The obvious solution is to say that financial months are different from Imperial calendar months.

I didn't calculate for 800 dTonners because, as far as I know, he wasn't asking about 800 dTonners: an 800 dTonner implies daily traffic of 1400 or more passengers. I don't know if he's thinking about a starport with that level of passenger activity.

I have some figures for passengers (well, tourists, but I don't think other passengers will add much to the flow) somewhere. I'll see if I can find them. But I'm definitely not thinking in terms of 800 dTonners, just small craft. If more capacity turns out to be needed, I'd add more shuttles, not increase the size.

So for Rancke's purposes we're getting cargo rates of about Cr 70 per dTon and passenger ticket rates of about Cr 54 per person. His Cr50 tickets cover costs nicely and give him a 20% profit margin, which gives him an annual profit of ~Cr 352,000 from which to fund any other infrastructure and pay the owners.

I'm pleased to hear it. Thanks for the work you've put into this.

I think Rancke's more looking at what's reasonable for his setting. If his concept of the starport involves heavier traffic, he can scale up the size of his shuttles and scale down ticket prices proportionally and end up with something reasonable.
Since it's for an adventure (actually, background for two different adventures, one in 1105 for MGT and one in 1120 for the GTU), I was looking for what was reasonable for the OTU. ;)


Hans
 
Since it's for an adventure (actually, background for two different adventures, one in 1105 for MGT and one in 1120 for the GTU), I was looking for what was reasonable for the OTU. ;)


Hans

There is no one answer for the OTU; each different system has different expectations, and there is no canonical pricing for OTU in-system travel.

The CT HG designed small craft have anywhere from 5 to 15 fewer tons for the same performance as the canon Bk2, tech level dependent. The CT HG craft will have the same costs and performance as the HeroTrav and T20 versions, due to the same design parameters.

MT will have different answers, because the costs of building system shuttles will be different.

TNE and T4 will have nearly identical parameters as each other, but different from other editions, as they share the same design parameters and operational costs.

T5 will generate yet another different answer. And even getting to that involves either house rules or beta rules.
 
There is no one answer for the OTU; each different system has different expectations, and there is no canonical pricing for OTU in-system travel.

Nevertheless I'm going to write my adventures based on the assumption that there is.


Hans
 
Nevertheless I'm going to write my adventures based on the assumption that there is.


Hans

You really should write them based upon the assumptions for the system for which they will be published, otherwise expect to be lambasted for "getting it wrong"...
 
You really should write them based upon the assumptions for the system for which they will be published, otherwise expect to be lambasted for "getting it wrong"...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I guess that's a burden I will somehow have to muster the fortitude to bear.

Seriously, if I write two adventures set in (practically) the same setting and the prices differed, I would have to come up with an explanation for that, and since "The Cosmic Axis has shifted" doesn't work for me, I would be at a loss to do so.



Hans
 
Last edited:
Seriously, if I write two adventures set in (practically) the same setting and the prices differed, I would have to come up with an explanation for that, and since "The Cosmic Axis has shifted" doesn't work for me, I would be at a loss to do so.
"Planets move and orbits are elliptical, so the distance and time are constantly changing."
On the other hand, for a story or adventure, just pulling a number out of thin air works for me. ;)


As a serious contribution, fixing the economics and calculating a reasonable cost for passengers is a great idea. I applaud all the effort made. But ...

The actual cost of operating the shuttle will be pretty much fixed once the actual craft is built (a 30 seat shuttle will cost roughly the same to operate with 29 passengers or 4 passengers). The 'airline' can somewhat alter the number of flights per week in response to seasonal demand, but there will be empty seats some of the time. I suspect that there will still be variability in ticket prices based upon peak season and off-season passenger rates and company expenses. All that doesn't even include the sort of fancy 'we can sell x seats at discount prices, y seats at standard prices and z seats at higher last minute prices' profit maximization that goes on with a real airline.

So a lot of factors far beyond the operating cost of a shuttle with ## seats and #G acceleration could impact the ticket price in an adventure.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top