TL changes to travellermap for T5

[savage]

MT and TNE outlined almost 30 worlds or so out of 11,000 that had reached TL G. I propose that the TL G (as described) is not something that should have been rolled back. If anything alterations to other fictitious world stats should have been adjusted. I point out that there are stories here being impacted.

In Massilia, TLG is described as inwardly focused, xenophobic in many cases. Clearly, data shows another of number potential colony, corp, daughter or captive worlds. TNE 1248 has more worlds not mentioned since the Regency was on a building project with the Darrians, Vincennes and Pashus.

Stories being impacted:

• Pg 75 knightfall - Massilia sector is prized by Rebellion factions for its high tech
• Only 7 worlds in the TLG we're high population. An Ancients site is on Jonen a TLD world. Possibly studying the site has assisted the Ergo.
• Vargr prize Kasuu as high TL (Challenge)
• Dlan would not have the TLG quality advantage in ship building. Remember there support Depot is on TLC and all there Domain depots are lower TL.
• Xenophobic high tech worlds. Traders want their goods.

Looking at TLE-G, High Populations 8+

TLG bases

Navy bases on high pop worlds: Ergo (owned by Rebin), Shiwoneen
Navy bases on low pop: Forever, Janeen, Cragun3, Zalucha, Cordell
Scout bases Tooka, Vonda, Coxe, Pashus
Described in Canon: Krishan, Gasha, Kaggushus, Deneb/Depot, Kasuu, Shiwoneen, Darrian​

TL E/F High Pop with Navy bases: Dirac
TL E/F High Pop with Scout bases: Igganir
​

Worlds described as TLG

Depot/Deneb 1613 A100644-G NaNiVa 220 DdF9II
Vincennes/Deneb 0112 A899AA6-G HiinCp 113 Dd
Pashus/Deneb 1432 A23255-G NiPoRsZ 812 DdA9V
Dlan/Illelish A8D1ADE-G
Kasuu/Corridor AA79CD-G
Gemid/Vland 1903 A423979-G HiNaInPo 724 VnK0V

24 in Massilia

Huon/Massilia B100948-G HiInVaNa F1VM8D
Forever/Massilia 0134 A000100-G N NiAsLo K6 II M6 V
Ergo/Massila 0314 A20099B-G HiInVaNa 804 F9VIM5D
Kaggushus/Massilia 0402 A442AA7-G HiInPoCp 904 F1D
Ticularosta/Massilia 0508 A100654-G NiVaNa 322 G3VM9D
Quuke/Massilia 0530 A100579-G NiVa 801 GV1M6D
Amaya/Massilia 0720 A100321-G NiVaLo 924 K9IIIM5D
Shimshan/Massilia 1029 A110720-G Na 813 M0VK3D
Lagna/Masillia 1029 A110A97-G HiInNa 231 G3VM8D
Arar/Massilia B233A72-G HiPoNaCp 524 F3 V
Shiwonee/Shiwonee 1430 AA86831-G NiAnCp 433 F7V1M9D
Gasha/Massilia 1508 A240510-G NiRs 924 MaG4D
SultanBelts/Massilia 1601 A00200-G NiAsLo 100 M8V
Krishan/Massilia 1910 A109AE-G HiNaVaCp 814 G1VM1D
Dumeras/Massilia 2308 B789AAD-G NHiA 103 Ma F4VM4D
Wynd/Massilia 2407 A310 AAB-G hiInNa 914 MaG4V
Janeen/Massilia 2408 A100610-G NiVaNa 302 MaK1VM2D
Caragun3/Massilia 2506 B434678-G Ni 323 MaG0V
Zalucha/Massilia 2508 A100610-G NiVaNaCp 302 Ma M7V1M2D
Cordell/Massilia 2731 A100203-G NiVaLo 893 MaG8VM7D
Vonda/Massilia 2735 B110102-G NiLo 431 MaM4VM7D
Coxe/Massilia 3009 B000101-G NiAsLo 414 MAM3V
Tooka/Massilia 3124 A241553-G NiPoAnCp 602 MaF3VM4D
Porto/Massilia 3211 B256AEC-G Hi 114 MaF1V
Non-3I
Darrian
​

Not only have we moved from TLG changing canon without necessity but also TL changes on other worlds Depots, etc.

Lowering TL for Depot/Corridor changes the military dynamics of Vland Domain.
Raising TLs on low TL depots made sense.

 

[aramis]

Elimination of the TL G imperial worlds was one of Don's personal goals...
Since Don had Marc's ear on the T5 survey revision...

I tend to agree that they make for interesting stories.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

When was this changed? I just reloaded my db mid last-week.
The 1248 books have worlds that recovered or maintained TL G...This is across all the UWP stats from the four 1248 Sourcebooks.
Sector Hex Name StSAHPGL-T
Deneb 1122 Vincennes A899AA6-G
Deneb 1128 Dekha A10099A-G
Deneb 1417 Starn A000996-G
Deneb 1613 Depot A100568-G
Old Expanses 403 DETHENES BA89A43-G
Spinward Marches 627 Daryen A463955-G

 

[77topaz]

Looking at TravellerMap, it seems the Traveller 5 Second Survey has only retained three TL-G worlds in the Imperium:

• Vincennes (1122 Deneb) A899AA6-G
• Pashus (1432 Deneb) A432455-G
• Gannvair (3206 Fornast) A00025A-G

Additionally, there is one TL-H world in the Imperium in the T5SS:

• Sabmiqys (2117 Antares) A560056-H

 

[Ackehece]

So Galaxaid is T5 era.... virus previously nuked everything and the higher the TL the more likely the impact of virus. Galaxaid is set that going forward TL16++ is standard, that would be ~TL-G. Seems fine and TL-H would seem even within the realm. With experimental (TL-H) and prototype (TL-J) mods a world could be advancing, especially a research oriented world.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Looking at TravellerMap, it seems the Traveller 5 Second Survey has only retained three TL-G worlds in the Imperium:

• Vincennes (1122 Deneb) A899AA6-G
• Pashus (1432 Deneb) A432455-G
• Gannvair (3206 Fornast) A00025A-G

Additionally, there is one TL-H world in the Imperium in the T5SS:

• Sabmiqys (2117 Antares) A560056-H

Sabmiqys is in Imperial space, but it's hardly an Imperial world. In fact, as far as the Imperium is concerned, it's questionable as to whether or not it's even an uninhabited planet.

 

[savage]

When was this changed? I just reloaded my db mid last-week.
The 1248 books have worlds that recovered or maintained TL G...This is across all the UWP stats from the four 1248 Sourcebooks.
Sector Hex Name StSAHPGL-T
Deneb 1122 Vincennes A899AA6-G
Deneb 1128 Dekha A10099A-G
Deneb 1417 Starn A000996-G
Deneb 1613 Depot A100568-G
Old Expanses 403 DETHENES BA89A43-G
Spinward Marches 627 Daryen A463955-G

Thanks. I specifically left 1248 out of it. I don't believe any of those we're axed.
A review, comparison of 1248 would be necessary. It was pretty late when i finished pre-1248.

 

[savage]

Looking at TravellerMap, it seems the Traveller 5 Second Survey has only retained three TL-G worlds in the Imperium:

• Vincennes (1122 Deneb) A899AA6-G
• Pashus (1432 Deneb) A432455-G
• Gannvair (3206 Fornast) A00025A-G

Additionally, there is one TL-H world in the Imperium in the T5SS:

• Sabmiqys (2117 Antares) A560056-H

Gannvair...missed it. Thanks. Sabmiqys doesn't count.

 

[savage]

Elimination of the TL G imperial worlds was one of Don's personal goals...
Since Don had Marc's ear on the T5 survey revision...

I tend to agree that they make for interesting stories.

Thank you Aramis. I think any MT / TNE fan would be bothered by the changes.
robject voiced a concern on another thread.


If we all put some thought into this. I would be happy to request a re-inclusion by Marc. I don't have his ear, like Don. But I think that this is pretty harmless on the part of DGP.

Even for Depot/Corridor, the test play cards that we're shipped for T5 said TLF.
There are really two subjects but I'll cover both of them in one thread.

 

[savage]

Here is my first question for a T5 expert. Are there any world builder reasons for the TL drop in T5? T5 is 1105 and the Rebellion 1116+. I don't believe its realistic to assume 20+ worlds broke the TLG barrier of general technology level globally within a 11 year span of 3I time. Or we could suggest when the TL changes occur in the Lorenverse. We could say Capital itself is TLG by 1150 or 1250. If that makes sense. I'm also not a believer that high pop worlds can change multiple TL overnight or within a few years.

Second question, look carefully at the data i've provided. Can anyone see any political reasons to change, outside of Ergo, Shiwoneen there are no serious military threats to the Imperium from Massilia. DLAN of course reaches TLG and figures it has the advantage. But it took time to build those ships. Hard to believe there depot is TLD. Ergo is also owned by the former Rebin Empire while Rebin remains a paradise. Certainly they're happy under the Imperium. Don't believe i need to mention Shiwoneen.

Looking at TLE-G, High Populations 8+ I count 7 worlds in Massillia.

TLG bases

Navy bases on high pop worlds: Ergo (owned by Rebin), Shiwoneen
Navy bases on low pop: Forever, Janeen, Cragun3, Zalucha, Cordell
Scout bases Tooka, Vonda, Coxe, Pashus
Described in Canon: Krishan, Gasha, Kaggushus, Deneb/Depot, Kasuu, Shiwoneen, Darrian (Daryen)​

TL E/F High Pop with Navy bases: Dirac
TL E/F High Pop with Scout bases: Igganir
​

Worlds described as TLG

Depot/Deneb 1613 A100644-G NaNiVa 220 DdF9II
Vincennes/Deneb 0112 A899AA6-G HiinCp 113 Dd
Pashus/Deneb 1432 A23255-G NiPoRsZ 812 DdA9V
Dlan/Illelish A8D1ADE-G
Kaasu/Corridor AA7A9CD-G 1209
Gemid/Vland 1903 A423979-G HiNaInPo 724 VnK0V
Gannvair/Fornast 3206 A00025A-G AsLoVa 213 A7III

24 in Massilia
Huon/Massilia B100948-G HiInVaNa F1VM8D
Forever/Massilia 0134 A000100-G N NiAsLo K6 II M6 V
Ergo/Massila 0314 A20099B-G HiInVaNa 804 F9VIM5D
Kaggushus/Massilia 0402 A442AA7-G HiInPoCp 904 F1D
Ticularosta/Massilia 0508 A100654-G NiVaNa 322 G3VM9D
Quuke/Massilia 0530 A100579-G NiVa 801 GV1M6D
Amaya/Massilia 0720 A100321-G NiVaLo 924 K9IIIM5D
Shimshan/Massilia 1029 A110720-G Na 813 M0VK3D
Lagna/Masillia 1029 A110A97-G HiInNa 231 G3VM8D
Arar/Massilia B233A72-G HiPoNaCp 524 F3 V
Shiwonee/Shiwonee 1430 AA86831-G NiAnCp 433 F7V1M9D
Gasha/Massilia 1508 A240510-G NiRs 924 MaG4D
SultanBelts/Massilia 1601 A00200-G NiAsLo 100 M8V
Krishan/Massilia 1910 A109AE-G HiNaVaCp 814 G1VM1D
Dumeras/Massilia 2308 B789AAD-G NHiA 103 Ma F4VM4D
Wynd/Massilia 2407 A310 AAB-G hiInNa 914 MaG4V
Janeen/Massilia 2408 A100610-G NiVaNa 302 MaK1VM2D
Caragun3/Massilia 2506 B434678-G Ni 323 MaG0V
Zalucha/Massilia 2508 A100610-G NiVaNaCp 302 Ma M7V1M2D
Cordell/Massilia 2731 A100203-G NiVaLo 893 MaG8VM7D
Vonda/Massilia 2735 B110102-G NiLo 431 MaM4VM7D
Coxe/Massilia 3009 B000101-G NiAsLo 414 MAM3V
Tooka/Massilia 3124 A241553-G NiPoAnCp 602 MaF3VM4D
Porto/Massilia 3211 B256AEC-G Hi 114 MaF1V
Non-3I
Darrian
​

1248 TLG: Dekh, Starn, and Dethenes we're lowered to F. This is 100+ year difference in time. I have no problem with a drop to F here.
Sector Hex Name
Deneb 1122 Vincennes A899AA6-G
Deneb 1128 Dekha A10099A-G
Deneb 1417 Starn A000996-G
Deneb 1613 Depot A100568-G
Old Expanses 403 DETHENES BA89A43-G
Spinward Marches 627 Daryen A463955-G

Third Question, Looking at the Depots is there any reason to justify a TL drop in Depots in T5. I have not enclosed the Depot list from Rebellion Sourcebook.
Deneb went down from G to F. But if one studies the domains most domains have 1 high TL depot. Vland had Corridor which is dropped to D and Dag was D raised to E for no reason. After 1100 years is there rivalry between Vland and Sylea? Illelish was one man's vision but there was an uprising once.
If anything Vland should have been higher at E/F but it was raised from 9 to D.
Lishun is being phased out in 1116, it went from 7 to D. Antares went from C to D. Diabei, Diaspora, Old Exp/ Sol Rim are all now Fs. Wow.

Aslan, Solomani and Hiver's are defended, but I would say the Coreward depot's are not much of a threat to the Vargr. I originally, argued all Depot's should be mostly F (some E). Phased out Depots are probably switching locations and may suffer a TL drop as equipment is moved. For an entire star system, this is really an expensive activity.

 

[robject]

Depots were a can of worms. It seems as though there could be a Depot in a system at any TL, but on the surface this seems to make no sense. Probably this depends on if or how a depot might be different than the mainworld of the system.

 

[aramis]

Thank you Aramis. I think any MT / TNE fan would be bothered by the changes.
robject voiced a concern on another thread.


If we all put some thought into this. I would be happy to request a re-inclusion by Marc. I don't have his ear, like Don. But I think that this is pretty harmless on the part of DGP.

Even for Depot/Corridor, the test play cards that we're shipped for T5 said TLF.
There are really two subjects but I'll cover both of them in one thread.

A well reasoned appeal to Marc, preferably backed by a moot poll, tends to at least get listened to, even if not implemented.

Best way to communicate with Marc tends to be by email

 

[savage]

A well reasoned appeal to Marc, preferably backed by a moot poll, tends to at least get listened to, even if not implemented.

Best way to communicate with Marc tends to be by email

So, let's discuss the change back under T5. Then I'll do a moot poll for the results.

So, per my 3 questions. Does anyone have any T5 supporting evidence (or any version of traveller) validating the change? I'd like to resolve this within the week.

Also, Don had a lot going on. I consider this to have been a hurried effort that could use a 2nd thought.

Thanks in advance.

 

[savage]

Depots - question 3

Depots were a can of worms. It seems as though there could be a Depot in a system at any TL, but on the surface this seems to make no sense. Probably this depends on if or how a depot might be different than the mainworld of the system.

Addressing my third question;
Not really a can of worms, the disconnect is that the Depot is the system. It contains bases for different military services. Your probably correct that the mainworld stat being used by DGP. However, per there own description, the entire system is the depot, they should have addressed TL differently.

If we compare documented depots; Deneb, Corridor, Gushemege, and Lishun there are essentially two types. Front line and secondary.

Lishun was being phased out and would be considered secondary or less. Possibly because of attacks from the Protectorate. The alternative location was never made clear. It was a low investment location. one would think with Antares, Core, Fornast and Vland neighboring it. That is was not was storage for other locations. As storage it may not have had a full range of capabilities.

• Deneb was G is F,
• Core is F,
• Corridor is documented as F (and provided additional support from the navy) we dropped it to D,
• Vland the oldest space faring culture was 9 but was increased to C,
• Antares, Ley, Fornast and the Delphi Depots are D. Guess the K'Kree are not that scary after all. Ok Old Expanse is F.
• All the rimward depots are now F. Diaspora was D.
• Massila is now E but was C (it has 24 TLG worlds)
• Gushemege was E still E
• Dagudashaag was D now E. I think Illelish would have fought harder to keep it because Illelish was C
• Illelish increased from C to D

So, along the Zho, Vargr borders there is only 1 F now.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Here is my first question for a T5 expert. Are there any world builder reasons for the TL drop in T5? T5 is 1105 and the Rebellion 1116+. I don't believe its realistic to assume 20+ worlds broke the TLG barrier of general technology level globally within a 11 year span of 3I time. Or we could suggest when the TL changes occur in the Lorenverse. We could say Capital itself is TLG by 1150 or 1250. If that makes sense. I'm also not a believer that high pop worlds can change multiple TL overnight or within a few years.

savage, I do not have a T5 reason per se. I do have emails related to some of the inner workings of what Marc and Don wanted in 2014. I was doing number crunching for Don on the "Imperial Economy". Marc wanted to see this sort of ordering for economic strength:

Top: Core, Ilelish, Solomani Rim
Secondary: Antares, Spinward Marches, Vland
Tertiary: Dagudashaag, Deneb, Daibei, Gushemege, Ley, Massilia, Old Expanses, Zarushagar
Bottom: Corridor, Delphi, Diaspora, Fornast, Lishun, Verge

This ordering reflected Don/Marc desired economic strengths of the sectors. After I did my number crunching, that was not the order found. We went on as to what should be changed so the sectors would reflect that order. Nothing was considered sacred to be left untouched. The primary factors I had recommended to knock down were Starport, Population, and unfortunately TL as these had the most direct impact to GURPS and T5 numbers.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

This might be my fault directly as Massilia was very high in my analyses along with Old Expanses. Both needed to be knocked down several pegs to achieve Marc's vision.
Ranking Sector RU Proposed Category
1 Solomani Rim 829435 1
2 Old Expanses 641843 3
3 Massilia 451641 3
4 Core 446641 1
5 Ilelish 408835 1

 

[Swiftbrook]

Thank you Aramis. I think any MT / TNE fan would be bothered by the changes.

I'm a long time MT fan/supporter. I don't mind changes for T5 but I am bothered by how it impacts CT/MT cannon. I think (wishfully hope) that most of the CT/MT TL G world ratings can be justified and don't think they should be changed. After the rebellion and virus, anything goes.

Slightly off topic: I just looked at the TravellerMap.com site and couldn't find a way to choose your era/version. It might not exist yet. I'd love to be able to select Hard Times or TNE and see the impact the rebellion and virus have caused. Or just select 1100 for CT.

-Swiftbrook

 

[77topaz]

Slightly off topic: I just looked at the TravellerMap.com site and couldn't find a way to choose your era/version. It might not exist yet. I'd love to be able to select Hard Times or TNE and see the impact the rebellion and virus have caused. Or just select 1100 for CT.

That feature does indeed not exist yet (there's been a bit of discussion about it in the past, but nothing more than that). The default milieu is 1105 for the Traveller 5 Second Survey (there's a few sectors where the only available data is in another milieu, such as Yiklerzdanzh (1200), but these are labelled as such).

 

[savage]

savage, I do not have a T5 reason per se. I do have emails related to some of the inner workings of what Marc and Don wanted in 2014. I was doing number crunching for Don on the "Imperial Economy". Marc wanted to see this sort of ordering for economic strength:

Top: Core, Ilelish, Solomani Rim
Secondary: Antares, Spinward Marches, Vland
Tertiary: Dagudashaag, Deneb, Daibei, Gushemege, Ley, Massilia, Old Expanses, Zarushagar
Bottom: Corridor, Delphi, Diaspora, Fornast, Lishun, Verge

This ordering reflected Don/Marc desired economic strengths of the sectors. After I did my number crunching, that was not the order found. We went on as to what should be changed so the sectors would reflect that order. Nothing was considered sacred to be left untouched. The primary factors I had recommended to knock down were Starport, Population, and unfortunately TL as these had the most direct impact to GURPS and T5 numbers.

Third Question
Good information, i recall Don mentioning a numerical approach. Did you publish all the numbers on a different thread? I'll have to read the T5 RU material.
The problem is we sacrifice good canon and military logic

• SM, Verge, don't have depots. So it pushes up the neighbor?
• DGP specifically states Corridor is held up to support the Vargr/ Zho threat. Nothing disagrees with that like a bottom tiered depot and the support it cannot provide to the very large corridor fleet. Deneb is still an F. Mark wanted it to be in a 3rd position?
• 3I navy is loaded per other threads. Although we never came to a specific number.
• Delphi would not be a serious faction contender with 2 D depots.

 

[savage]

I'm a long time MT fan/supporter. I don't mind changes for T5 but I am bothered by how it impacts CT/MT cannon. I think (wishfully hope) that most of the CT/MT TL G world ratings can be justified and don't think they should be changed. After the rebellion and virus, anything goes.

Slightly off topic: I just looked at the TravellerMap.com site and couldn't find a way to choose your era/version. It might not exist yet. I'd love to be able to select Hard Times or TNE and see the impact the rebellion and virus have caused. Or just select 1100 for CT.

-Swiftbrook

1st and 2nd questions

Yeah. 7 TL G worlds in 1 sector and a bunch of colonies seems to be a big loss.
It would be nice to be able to access the old data with the same tool instead of switching to another tool for old data.