TL changes to travellermap for T5

[Garnfellow]

Keep in mind that the T5SS data is intended to reflect Charted Space in 1105; the MT period is, what? 10-30 years into the future, and TNE way beyond that. While the Depot changes are deliberate retcons, the other TL-regressed worlds could very well be TL G in 1120, and certainly by 1200. So this change doesn't actually invalidate Knightfall or other canonical sources.

I don't think the rollbacks were just Don's personal whim or undertaken without serious thought. If anything, I look at something like all the TL Gs in Massilia and wonder how carefully that sector data was developed. The Solomani Rim is supposed to be a high pop, high tech industrial powerhouse and has been worked over multiple times for multiple editions, making it a useful benchmark -- and not one of those Rim worlds is TL G.

In the classic era, TL F is supposed to be a big deal and represent a huge advantage for the Imperium. So I have no problem with restricting TL G to just a half dozen or so worlds in 1105. The CT Solomani Alien Module, set in 1111, has the max TL of the Confederation as E, but the MT Solomani and Aslan, set in 1120, has it as F. So clearly there is some significant tech inflection point between the CT and MT periods.

Rather than roll back the T5 changes, I would prefer to ask what could have happened in Massilia between 1105 and 1120 to bring so many worlds to TL G? Did the sector duke push some sort of agressive, Manhattan project type of tech advancement? Why? It sounds like a good story, in any case.

My understanding is that once the T5SS project has developed a stable dataset for 1105, other time periods for the same region would be explored. So you can have Rim War data, Rebellion data, TNE data, etc. Right now you can load custom data into Traveller Map to render poster, booklets -- that's how I make material for Magyar in the Interstellar Wars.

 

[savage]

Keep in mind that the T5SS data is intended to reflect Charted Space in 1105; the MT period is, what? 10-30 years into the future, and TNE way beyond that. While the Depot changes are deliberate retcons, the other TL-regressed worlds could very well be TL G in 1120, and certainly by 1200. So this change doesn't actually invalidate Knightfall or other canonical sources.

In the classic era, TL F is supposed to be a big deal and represent a huge advantage for the Imperium. So I have no problem with restricting TL G to just a half dozen or so worlds in 1105. The CT Solomani Alien Module, set in 1111, has the max TL of the Confederation as E, but the MT Solomani and Aslan, set in 1120, has it as F. So clearly there is some significant tech inflection point between the CT and MT periods.

Rather than roll back the T5 changes, I would prefer to ask what could have happened in Massilia between 1105 and 1120 to bring so many worlds to TL G? Did the sector duke push some sort of agressive, Manhattan project type of tech advancement? Why? It sounds like a good story, in any case.

My understanding is that once the T5SS project has developed a stable dataset for 1105, other time periods for the same region would be explored. So you can have Rim War data, Rebellion data, TNE data, etc. Right now you can load custom data into Traveller Map to render poster, booklets -- that's how I make material for Magyar in the Interstellar Wars.

All good points, however, 11 years for 24 worlds (7 high pop) to make the tech leap is very dramatic. I prefer explaining canon, like depots, rather than changing it. For there to be a couple high tech worlds and then about 30 is pretty high.

 

[Garnfellow]

All good points, however, 11 years for 24 worlds (7 high pop) to make the tech leap is very dramatic. I prefer explaining canon, like depots, rather than changing it. For there to be a couple high tech worlds and then about 30 is pretty high.

I share your incredulity but have arrived at a completely different conclusion -- that keeping all those TL G worlds in Massilia would be much more canon-breaking than removing them.

Yeah, one canonical source once listed 24 TL G worlds in Massilia, but look at all the other canonical sources that had zero TLG worlds in their descriptions of far more important sectors. You retcon the Massilia worlds, you impact one source. Unfortunate, yes. But you keep them, you call into question all those other sources. And that's a disaster.

From a story standpoint, none of the Massilia worlds need to be TL G for Knightfall to work. TL E or TL F is still high tech; TL F is beyond the Aslan or Solomanis in 1105.

Two, three, four TL G worlds in Massilia I could swallow; those would make a neat story. But 24, in 1105? I can't buy it. The IISS must have botched the job, there -- and the real question is, why?

 

[Swiftbrook]

Keep in mind that the T5SS data is intended to reflect Charted Space in 1105; the MT period is, what? 10-30 years into the future, and TNE way beyond that. While the Depot changes are deliberate retcons, the other TL-regressed worlds could very well be TL G in 1120, and certainly by 1200. So this change doesn't actually invalidate Knightfall or other canonical sources.

1) I would put the MT TL data at 1116, the eve of the Rebellion.
2) I would not change the TL indicated for the Depots in Rebellion Sourcebook (with errata)

I looked up some reference on MT and TL worlds, for some perspective:

MEGATRAVELLER QUESTIONS
In the Rebellion Sourcebook, Dlan is given a tech code of G, which isn't possible. The tech level modifiers for Dlan are: starport A, +6; atmosphere D, +1; population A, +4; and government D, -2; a total DM of +9. Since the tech level roll uses 1D, there's no way to get 16 from 1D+9. Is there some modifier that isn't in the Referee's Manual? - S.0.

Yes, you are very perceptive. The central sectors of the Imperium were given a special tech level modifier of +1 when they were generated, in addition to all the other regular modifiers. - Joe D. Fugate Sr.

Why are tech level 16 worlds suddenly becoming commonplace? There are 24 of these worlds in one sector alone (Massilia) according to Traveller's Digest Issue 11. -S.0.

There are several marginally tech level 16 worlds in the Imperium, and the sector with the most tech 16 worlds is Massilia Sector (Margaret's territory, interestingly enough...). Even though a world's tech level may officially be 16, remember what it says about tech level in the Referee's Manual:

"Large areas of the world away from the starport or away from large population centers may be one or even two tech levels lower."

To clarify further, the tech level 16 rating comes when a world makes a major advance in a certain technological area. For instance, if a world has advanced to the point that it can build fusion power plants whose volume is under 0.09 kiloliters, then it has crossed the boundary to tech level 16 power plant construction. Other technologies may still be at tech level 15. The tech level 16 rating indicates the best technology that is available, which is not always the same as the worldwide technology. - Joe D. Fugate Sr.

Bottom line: Just because a world is listed at TL 16, doesn't mean everything is TL 16 on the world.

Side Note: I have some errata in my MT Rebellion Sourcebook increasing the TL on more than half of the Depots on page 34. I can't find the reference to where I got this from. I don't believe I made it up (I have no reason to nor source to do so). Anyone have any idea where this may have come from? Thanks.

 

[Garnfellow]

Swiftbrook, that's a great quote from Fugate. "The tech level 16 rating indicates the best technology that is available [emphasis added], which is not always the same as the worldwide technology."

Fugate was using an interpretation of TL that is almost completely backwards from the T5 definitation, where worldwide technology would be the baseline TL: "Technology Level indicates the common capabilities [emphasis added] of the world in the creation of and use of technology. . . . Technology is spread across a range of Technology Levels. Although the majority of goods on a world reflect its Tech Level, there may be higher TL goods (experimental models, prototypes, or early versions) or there may be lower TL goods (advanced or improved versions of older or more mature technology)" (396).

So all those TL G worlds is Masillia? They aren't really G in T5 terms: They are very high F, with some G capacity. Changing the TL in the UWP doesn't have to affect their tech capabilities one whit.

So to recap, I'm for rolling back most of the TL Gs because you have a few sectors that were developed in MT using a perfectly justifiable, but idiosyncratic definition of TL that just does't line up with the definition used in development in most of the other sectors, and is also the definition used by the latest iteration of the rules.

 

[ovka]

Swiftbrook, that's a great quote from Fugate. "The tech level 16 rating indicates the best technology that is available [emphasis added], which is not always the same as the worldwide technology."

Fugate was using an interpretation of TL that is almost completely backwards from the T5 definitation, where worldwide technology would be the baseline TL: "Technology Level indicates the common capabilities [emphasis added] of the world in the creation of and use of technology. . . . Technology is spread across a range of Technology Levels. Although the majority of goods on a world reflect its Tech Level, there may be higher TL goods (experimental models, prototypes, or early versions) or there may be lower TL goods (advanced or improved versions of older or more mature technology)" (396).

So all those TL G worlds is Masillia? They aren't really G in T5 terms: They are very high F, with some G capacity. Changing the TL in the UWP doesn't have to affect their tech capabilities one whit.

So to recap, I'm for rolling back most of the TL Gs because you have a few sectors that were developed in MT using a perfectly justifiable, but idiosyncratic definition of TL that just does't line up with the definition used in development in most of the other sectors, and is also the definition used by the latest iteration of the rules.

And this interpretation leaves open the possibility of the "G" stores advertised in MTJ. :rofl:

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[savage]

This is a healthy discussion. I like seeing both sides.

Remember 7 high population worlds in Massila and the rest are small populations. They could be corp, quick colonies for all it matters.
Another problem is Dlan, he had to be building ships somewhere else in his domain. If he used Dlan yards or the Depot, IISS would know. That took years. He had a plan.
Some suggestions of Darrians trading with the inner sectors of 3I are interesting, but I think it's too soft pro-3I. I like the tough GT Darrians approach instead of the Vulcan like Darrians.

I'm not excited about Depot's being pushed back in TL at 1105. I believe they've been there for a while. That these are system wide facilities and should be treated as a system wide TL. But i was a voice in asking Don to raise the lower TLs so it made sense. I had suggested two TLs. Clearly Marc wanted 4 TLs.
But i don't think the TL is comparable to the capability of the facility only the equipment it can work on.

 

[inexorabletash]

This far in the thread and no mention of the Geonee yet?

 

[Spartan159]

The Geonee are on the short list aren't they? :smirk:

 

[savage]

This far in the thread and no mention of the Geonee yet?

Lagna and Shiwonee are on the list. There Massilia population is 65 billion. So, are you going somewhere with this as a justification? I wasn't very race specific but clearly there TL was pushed back down if there just breaking TL15.

 

[Ackehece]

might be worth a read all pages 510 to 512 of t509
​

According to the rules planets/species can regress in TL.
pg 511 "long plateau"
(better to regress then to decline - one is temporary the other rather permanent)

The Imperium is moving along the tech levels at a fairly rapid pace according to the rules... (2 TL every 500 years is rapid as that is only 25 generations per 2 TL or 12 per 1

but it could be moving even faster​

pg 511
"Encountering Outside Technology. If there are encounters
with higher technology, the sophont species can
reasonably be expected to advance to the encountered Tech
Level minus 1D within a generation, and to the encountered
TL minus 1 within two generations."

I suspect that there should be a TL differential requirement - if your 10 TLs or more apart it should nearly impossible to figure out.
(I would argue 5 but the rule as stated by itself rules that out! (TL-1d within a generation))
imagine a stone age wanderer picking up a fusion rifle... or iron age looking at a jump drive. ​

lets see: blackglobe, white globe, ringworld (Hinterworlds 1432), temporal stasis pods... all found... canonically

so does that mean the Imperium was deliberately suppressing technology advances in some areas???​

 

[mike wightman]

I am of the opinion that the Imperium has been supressing technology since the first Imperium, right up to the fall of the third Imperium (and look what caused that - uncontrolled technological breakthrough :CoW

The Vilani encountered worlds with much higher TL than themselves, but without the jump drive.
They could study them for a bit and if they considered them a threat nuke them back into the stone age...

The Vilani forbidden technology archives are probably worth studying... (see Marc's novel)

 

[Ackehece]

I am of the opinion that the Imperium has been supressing technology since the first Imperium, right up to the fall of the third Imperium (and look what caused that - uncontrolled technological breakthrough :CoW

Seems likely as the first imperium had definitely come across ancients sites.

The Vilani forbidden technology archives are probably worth studying... (see Marc's novel)

Yes,yes they would be interesting

Now that leads to the question of why the various Imperiums and polities around the Imperium intentionally suppress technology?
outside influence? fear of the singularity? precusors fates?

 

[mike wightman]

Here's a question.
Did the Ancients have anything to do with the Kursae?
What if it the Vilani distrust for advanced machines and limitless technological progress is what allowed humanity to avoid the fate of the Kursae?
What if the AIs that evolved during the second Imperium worked all this out and realised the only way to save humanity from its fate was to facilitate periods of regression and stagnation to allow for controlled technological development?
What if there is a proxy war going on between the super advanced races?

Wonder if Marc has plots in store for future novels...

 

[savage]

So, why exterminate a higher TL world? Not having jump drive does not mean they're not in orbit or in system. o:

The Vilani would've studied the sophonts even, if discovered allowed them to assume FTL was a much higher TL.

Technology suppression is a natural part of capitalism as inovation. If a company has a significant investment (Tire repair centers for example) it may buy up the rights to a very long life tire in order to squash the tech for a couple decades till they can use it for their own advancement.

 

[mike wightman]

So, why exterminate a higher TL world? Not having jump drive does not mean they're not in orbit or in system. o:

The Vilani would've studied the sophonts even, if discovered allowed them to assume FTL was a much higher TL.

Technology suppression is a natural part of capitalism as inovation. If a company has a significant investment (Tire repair centers for example) it may buy up the rights to a very long life tire in order to squash the tech for a couple decades till they can use it for their own advancement.

They studied, learned all they could, archived it, then played drop the rock...

no way would the TL11 Vilani allow a TL12 to 20 jump drive lacking world into their star empire

 

[savage]

They studied, learned all they could, archived it, then played drop the rock...

no way would the TL11 Vilani allow a TL12 to 20 jump drive lacking world into their star empire

You don't think they'd absorb the TL12 tech? And let it go at that?

I don't see the "drop a rock scenario" being frequent without a heavy hand at manipulation. I think AotI shows a more manipulative approach for 3I.

The move of TL16 worlds back to TL15 worlds was a financial analysis during 3I that had nothing to do with 1I. It's a reset to canon that pushes 30+ worlds back over a decade earlier. So, the question is how did 30+ worlds pop into the TL16 quickly. Or is that out too? The Geonee are TL 14 going on 15 now in 1105.

FYI, I've added stats for Kaasu/Corridor on the first thread page. The distinction of Corridor's only TLG world. as of the Rebellion.

 

[mike wightman]

You don't think they'd absorb the TL12 tech? And let it go at that?

No, I think they were deathly afraid of the machines (robots, computers, synthetic beings etc.) that TL12+ societies embrace and as a result quarantined and archived such technology.

I don't see the "drop a rock scenario" being frequent without a heavy hand at manipulation. I think AotI shows a more manipulative approach for 3I.

Have you read Agent of the Imperium? Scrubbing worlds appears to be a lot more common than I ever thought. When I read the first chapter I was revolted. By the middle of the book I understood why it was necessary.

I am hoping sequels will reveal the truth behind the psionic suppression, the solomani rim war, the rebellion and finally the release of virus. I wonder if the wafers survive to the TNE+ era?

The move of TL16 worlds back to TL15 worlds was a financial analysis during 3I that had nothing to do with 1I. It's a reset to canon that pushes 30+ worlds back over a decade earlier. So, the question is how did 30+ worlds pop into the TL16 quickly. Or is that out too? The Geonee are TL 14 going on 15 now in 1105.

DGP should never have been allowed to get away with raising the TL of so many worlds to TL16 in the first place - I support the decision to retcon it from existence - maximum Imperium TL is 15 in 1105.

 

[savage]

No, I think they were deathly afraid of the machines (robots, computers, synthetic beings etc.) that TL12+ societies embrace and as a result quarantined and archived such technology.

Have you read Agent of the Imperium? Scrubbing worlds appears to be a lot more common than I ever thought. When I read the first chapter I was revolted. By the middle of the book I understood why it was necessary.

I am hoping sequels will reveal the truth behind the psionic suppression, the solomani rim war, the rebellion and finally the release of virus. I wonder if the wafers survive to the TNE+ era?

DGP should never have been allowed to get away with raising the TL of so many worlds to TL16 in the first place - I support the decision to retcon it from existence - maximum Imperium TL is 15 in 1105.

Thanks for your candid view Mike. You want it retconned and kept that way.
DGPs work was approved by GDW.

So, yeah i read AotI. Did you? Without taking the AotI thread here. No world scrubbed was scrubbed in 3I for having a higher TL than Capital/Core. That would've been calculated mass murder out of fear not protecting the Empire from mass destruction. The agent was always concerned with loss of life scenarios.

 

[mike wightman]

I wasn't sure if AotI in your post meant Atlas of the Imperium or Agent of the Imperium.
Sakaliin - the world where the computer network achieved sentience - TL9 world at that - 200,000 dead thanks to EMP weapons and blasted back to pre-digital technology. Then interdicted to prevent Ai breakout. Isn't that TL17?

We acted without warning; one moment they were a functioning
technology founded on electronics and computers; the next moment
they weren’t. They lost maybe one percent of population because
control systems failed; they would lose another ten percent in the
next year. On the other hand, their society would rally and return,
newly based on analog controls and mechanical devices. Careful
monitoring over the next five generations would make sure the AI
wasn’t lurking in some dormant circuit or forgotten memory. Eventually
the world would return to the interstellar community. But for
now, they were quarantined: red zoned, prohibited, forbidden.

Dathsuts - the world with advanced pseudobiological robots building an orion drive STL transport.

The empire’s secret archives had records of now-dead worlds
with surfaces converted to vast robot cities. Who knew where their
robot citizens ultimately went?

Yet more TL17 stuff?
Both higher TL than Capital at the time.