TNE Interpretation Question

[epicenter00]

???

I thought TNE was the darker/est of all the incarnations ? Unless you have
some very dark classic-era games and players.

I must say, even my own black-guards don't kill women and children but that's just me.

Mega Traveller's rebellion and Hard Times seem to approach this, but I thought TNE was farther beyond that.


>

I think in this case your definition of "dark" varies from mine. When I refer to dark, I refer to the actions of the players as opposed to society around them. In that respect, quite often the "darkness" runs in the opposite direction - CT is usually the darkest, MT is a bit less, and TNE probably the least.

In CT, the player characters and the scenarios around them often have them acting like the Guild. No-questions-asked hauling (aka "smuggling"?), gun-running, killing people over short-term profits, terrorism, fighting other people's wars with no questions asked, and so on are all staples of CT era Traveller. While there's a lot of exploration scenarios, I think a lot of CT scenarios involve a lot of pretty dubious activity done pretty much purely for profit.

In MT, that classic Third Imperium is falling apart - riven under the weight of its exposed decadence and ripped apart by civil war. While in many cases player continue on the same vein as CT-era games (or get worse) in many cases, players do actually choose a side or start trying to help people devastated by the factional fighting.

TNE, the Third Imperium is gone. The sins (which are all the RC seems to be able to look at) and its virtues are history. However, players tend to be the types who are trying to create a new interstellar society, rebuild their society, and help other people build theirs. Of course, this moral goodwill is already poisoned by "practicality" such as Smash-And-Grab raids and so on, but the fact that there is a moral center to be tested/tarnished differs quite a bit from the "let's do it for money" mentality of most CT campaigns, which makes the universe of TNE pretty dark, but the players at least are beacons in that (or trying to be in most cases) instead of being part of the darkness.

 

[Starviking]

The Covenant of Suffren sort of throws a wrench into this entire operation, as they're also a power with a B-class starport (or maybe A? I don't remember anymore), as they'd also be able to deal with the Guild on an equal or even a superior position, but the Covenant didn't exist in print at the time that PoT was written. This line is further compromised if you follow the 1248 timeline with the factional cores from the Rebellion-era still extant.

Suffren has only a C-class port, but they also have a Naval Base. In my TNE 'verse one of the big missions after contact with Suffren was a technical assistance mission to help the Covenant upgrade that port.

 

[Starviking]

IIRC PoT mentioned a dictator trying to get additional starcharts. The one that had troops on a nearby world interfering in the civil war there

There is also mention of captured RC personnel being tortured to death by TEDs in an attempt to extract jump programs info.

 

[Starviking]

Given the players often have a 3-6 TL advantage in fights against the forces of TEDs, they tend to walk all over TEDs. RC standard ground force TL is 12 while a lot of TEDs are hanging around the TL 8 to 9 range, in space the difference is greater. My players tended not to hoard tons of equipment, but they tended to carry the best they could find and are often pushing TL14-15. In situations like that, I find the local TL8 TEDs pretty much don't stand a chance.

Whilst that's true, there are often TEDs with significant amounts of relic equipment - like Hodg (TL10 base, TL13 relics), Berkin (TL5 base, TL12 relics), Janie (TL5 base, TL11 relics), Keipes (TL5 base, TL10 + 11 relics) .

You also have the Guild throwing spanners in the works by supplying high-tech equipment: TL12 Active EMS Sensors supplied to Montezuma and TL12 Strategic SAMs to Clallum. This will probably continue until the Guild are neutralised.

I think there's enough stuff out there to give PCs a nasty surprise if they're not cautious. Also, anyone can suffer from a bad luck day...

 

[epicenter00]

Suffren has only a C-class port, but they also have a Naval Base. In my TNE 'verse one of the big missions after contact with Suffren was a technical assistance mission to help the Covenant upgrade that port.

Is it a class C? I suppose it must be. I just remember since Suffren was able to construct Covenator-class ships, they had to have a B class starport (or maybe an A) because I don't think C-class starports are able to modify starships like that - IIRC, the minimum rating for that was B, maybe A. True, Covenators aren't new ships, but I think even kitbashing new ships from older ones required a B class starport. (Alternatively, I think that Traveller's starport classification was always too rigid in that respect.)

 

[Starviking]

Is it a class C? I suppose it must be. I just remember since Suffren was able to construct Covenator-class ships, they had to have a B class starport (or maybe an A) because I don't think C-class starports are able to modify starships like that - IIRC, the minimum rating for that was B, maybe A. True, Covenators aren't new ships, but I think even kitbashing new ships from older ones required a B class starport. (Alternatively, I think that Traveller's starport classification was always too rigid in that respect.)

I think it was said in the TNE Screen booklet that the C port (in conjunction with the Naval Base?) could modify spacecraft and starships, thought the Covenantors are a pretty extreme modification.

I agree on the starport classification rigidity being a bit too extreme. That said, perhaps what we're seeing with Suffren is that there was B-class activity under way there in the past (Converting large warships to SDBs, Covenantors) but now that they're built the manpower has been released for more vital jobs and so it's back down to a C-class port.

 

[Badbru]

"Astrogators guide to Diaspora", a MegaTraveller supplement stated Sufren, capital of the then "Union of Sufren" produced their own naval ships but purchased their mercantile hulls from a neighbouring system. Madora IIRC. However even at that time Sufren was listed as having a B Class starport. I thus concluded that they built their naval ships at the Naval base.

 

[Slatz_Grobnik]

Conclusion: I think the line about deep space jumps really were highlighting the strengths of the Guild. Without a monopoly on this information, they're really sort of a weak faction. Eventually, I think GDW wanted the RC to face the real threats which they were more suited - the Guild could never field an army or a navy and while the Guild could make like difficult for the RC, they ultimately couldn't ever stop the RC from going where they wanted to, when they wanted to. The RC was laying down all these battalion troop transports and "blue space" naval vessels and needed an enemy like Solee that was more suited to such a military.

Nail on the head. The RC has firepower and Hiver U. The Guild has knowledge. The Guild knows the Wilds much better than the RC does, if only because the Guild isn't out to "save" the Wilds. The Guild understand how to get to a TED, understand what a populace actually needs. Part of this entails their having a much better map of the sector, both physical and political. It is, after all, taking the whole of the free trader network and focusing it.

I think that the problem in a lot of ways was that GDW, once creating the perfect "shadow RC," didn't necessarily know where to take it. To the extent that TNE was supposed to be the morally clear Traveller, the Guild winds up subverting that big time. The trouble started in PoT, which, I think ends up with a throwaway line regarding the Guild as just free traders plus oligarchic jerks, which doesn't do justice in the least.

But, yeah, I always took that as referring to, in effect, the superiority of the Guild's maps.

 

[jfetters]

Nail on the head. The RC has firepower and Hiver U. The Guild has knowledge. The Guild knows the Wilds much better than the RC does, if only because the Guild isn't out to "save" the Wilds. The Guild understand how to get to a TED, understand what a populace actually needs. Part of this entails their having a much better map of the sector, both physical and political. It is, after all, taking the whole of the free trader network and focusing it.

*Excactly*

 

[Ranana_occutt]

Its the second one.

The question is not very well written.

To make it more clear via insertion of one two-letter word bolded:
Have any relatives of you or of your spouse ever been convicted or imprisoned?

 

[Whipsnade]

For real ? o: Or is that your clever sense of humor ? Book and Page if you have it. (I believe you I just want to see for myself -- and use it).

Gadrin,

Kafka confused T20 and MJD's M:1248 with TNE. The "deadspace" phenomena is first mentioned in the former and explained in the latter.


Regards,
Bill

 

[kafka47]

Bill, 1248 is merely TNE Mk II, as it has been stated elsewhere it is Traveller's future. I think the principle of complementarism is at work T20 is the bedrock upon which 1248 is founded and all the GDW & IG stuff exists as strata above and below it.

So whether we like or not they are Traveller.

 

[Gadrin]

Nail on the head. The RC has firepower and Hiver
U. The Guild has knowledge. The Guild knows the Wilds much better than the RC
does, if only because the Guild isn't out to "save" the Wilds. The Guild
understand how to get to a TED, understand what a populace actually needs.
Part of this entails their having a much better map of the sector, both
physical and political. It is, after all, taking the whole of the free trader
network and focusing it.

I think that the problem in a lot of ways was that GDW, once creating the
perfect "shadow RC," didn't necessarily know where to take it. To the extent
that TNE was supposed to be the morally clear Traveller, the Guild winds up
subverting that big time. The trouble started in PoT, which, I think ends up
with a throwaway line regarding the Guild as just free traders plus
oligarchic jerks, which doesn't do justice in the least.

But, yeah, I always took that as referring to, in effect, the superiority of
the Guild's maps.

Well just how much does the Guild know about the RC ? It seems they'd have to
know enough to be able to deal with them at least peripherally. I suppose
it's a GM's decision.

I could see them IMTU generating false leads and such for the RC to swallow.
I take it the term Star Viking was coined by the Guild (or at least fostered).

And... so did you deal with this (your post) in your games or it's just
something to note ?

So is the Guild larger than the RC in terms of ships ? If they've got better
maps it stands to reason they've got more ships and information coming from
those jumping around the region.

Or does it ?

>

 

[Gadrin]

So it looks like the Guild is roughly ~100 ships or so.

RC is what... 5x that ? 10x ?

Have any canon Smash & Grab raids been done against the
Guild ? It sure seems like a good source of data (from their
ships) and navigators.

Or is the RCES too goody-goody (trek-like) ?

Or simply that's left for the GM to create ?

>

 

[epicenter00]

Well just how much does the Guild know about the RC ? It seems they'd have to know enough to be able to deal with them at least peripherally. I suppose
it's a GM's decision.

The Guild initially knows more about the RC than the RC knows about the Guild. The Guild could be assumed to know pretty much everything published in the Path of Tears supplement.

The RC wouldn't know nearly as much, though it probably wouldn't be hard to learn.

I take it the term Star Viking was coined by the Guild (or at least fostered).

Yep.

So is the Guild larger than the RC in terms of ships ? If they've got better
maps it stands to reason they've got more ships and information coming from
those jumping around the region.
>

The Guild has several advantages in spacing. While spacers in the RC have the advantage of a superior technical education from the Hivers, the Guild is essentially a coalition of free trader types, which in TNE are basically like wandering traders. They've been plying space since the Virus, so basically know it better than anyone else.

The Guild essentially want to be a monopoly - their plan is to force any remaining free traders into their fold and failing that, kill them or take their ship at the very least.

The primary disadvantages to the Guild is that they're not going to have warships, and while the events of the Guilded Lily posit a method for the Guild to get new ships, their primary disadvantage is that not only can they not make new ships, their fleet are essentially aged and worn trading vessels. They don't have the burgeoning shipyards of the RC, aren't laying dawn warships, and aren't training Marines.

 

[Gadrin]

The Guild initially knows more about the RC than
the RC knows about the Guild. The Guild could be assumed to know pretty much
everything published in the Path of Tears supplement.

The RC wouldn't know nearly as much, though it probably wouldn't be hard to
learn.

Okay. I thought the RC was bigger ? So even if they are the ships & captains
that form their ranks are no where near the size or the experience (or both)
of the Guild ?

The Guild has several advantages in spacing. While
spacers in the RC have the advantage of a superior technical education from
the Hivers, the Guild is essentially a coalition of free trader types, which
in TNE are basically like wandering traders. They've been plying space since
the Virus, so basically know it better than anyone else.

So they've been lucky enough to avoid Virus (at least the survivors have).

Would it be fair to say the Guild has some technical knowledge of Virus ?
(canaries etc). If they know everything in Path of Tears, then I guess I'll
have to re-scour that to cover this question.

The primary disadvantages to the Guild is that
they're not going to have warships, and while the events of the Guilded Lily
posit a method for the Guild to get new ships, their primary disadvantage is
that not only can they not make new ships, their fleet are essentially aged
and worn trading vessels. They don't have the burgeoning shipyards of the RC,
aren't laying dawn warships, and aren't training Marines.

So they might given their economic base, be able to buy some ships (at least
in theory). While the RC won't (or probably won't) sell to the Guild
directly, the Guild could purchase equipment from them on the sly. Or would
the RC deal with the Guild ? (I just picked up Smash & Grab and at least one
mission has the RC in a "must happen" scenario, mainly due funds. So the
Guild could be a temptation to parts of the RC at least in theory).

>

 

[Gadrin]

Grabs the Path of Tears book.

"Hmmm, The Star Viking Sourcebook/Reformation Coalition Manual".

And the Guild is suppose to know all that ? They must have one hell
of a spy/intelligence gathering network.

I could see them gaining some information, such as where the RC
has it's shipbuilding yards and maybe some of the other key planets,
especially if the word gets around, but I'm not sure they'd know
everything the RC knows.

I bet they could guess at logical SAG targets in some cases and
inform locals of what's coming the next X months or years. That's
where they'd sell their 14.5mm weapons and ammo and other
anti-RC items. I think the setting is geared towards that.

The Guild introduced Slavers as part of their operation a decade or
so ago; so it seems likely they could also deal with the Vampire
fleets with some success too (since the VFs deal routinely with TEDs).

>

 

[epicenter00]

Okay. I thought the RC was bigger ? So even if they are the ships & captains that form their ranks are no where near the size or the experience (or both)
of the Guild ?

I think you're still mistaking the Guild as a nation like the RC is. They aren't. The Guild can be said to "hold" two (or three), I believe (I think like two planets called "Jump" and one called "Justabit"). None of these planets are particularly economic powerhouses boasting large educated and skilled populations nor factories. Their captains are pretty independent, and compete vigorously with each other.

The impression that the reader is left with regarding the RC is that they've really only begun going back into the stars after being jumpstarted by the Hivers with technical education and economic aid to help in their re-industrialization into spacefaring societies. Worlds like Oriflamme and Aubaine would have probably made it back into space "soon" (Aubaine more sooner than later). A certain number of Free Traders come from the RC's members and have joined them, as well as miscellaneous system-bound ships.

The Guild certainly has the advantage of greater first-hand knowledge of many star systems in the Wilds - the RC's knowledge of worlds is severely limited, especially in the time of Path of Tears.

So they've been lucky enough to avoid Virus (at least the survivors have).

Would it be fair to say the Guild has some technical knowledge of Virus ?
(canaries etc). If they know everything in Path of Tears, then I guess I'll
have to re-scour that to cover this question.

The Guild is a reasonably technically competent group and have dealt with the Virus for as long as the RC. They probably have various and effective methods of dealing with the Virus - Canaries and so on are probably the least of their technical tricks.

So they might given their economic base, be able to buy some ships (at least
in theory). While the RC won't (or probably won't) sell to the Guild
directly, the Guild could purchase equipment from them on the sly. Or would
the RC deal with the Guild ? (I just picked up Smash & Grab and at least one
mission has the RC in a "must happen" scenario, mainly due funds. So the
Guild could be a temptation to parts of the RC at least in theory).

Ships are supposed to be extremely rare and extremely precious in TNE. I think sales of ships are uncommon in the extreme in that area of the Traveller Universe. This is, mind you, like magic weapons in Dungeons and Dragons - they're supposed to be so rare, but it's routine for certain kinds of player-character groups to have like 3-4 starships, but ignoring anomalies like PCs, they're very rare. People who have ships, as a rule, don't sell them.

The RC is portrayed as having nowhere near enough ships to do everything they want to do. They're phasing out older, less capable ships as they build new purpose-built ships, but ships can only be completed so quickly - I think there is a comment in one of the books about every single shipbuilding slip in Aubaine's shipyards to be booked solid for the foreseeable future.

The situation outside of the RC in that area is worse. There's not a single other "A" class starport in the region. The Covenant of Suffren can't make new ships. Nobody can make new ships.

As a GM, my view is that the Guild isn't going to be getting ships from the RC directly or indirectly. They might send agents or individual Guild captains might work out clandestine deals to get ship-parts (even critical ones like jump drives) from the RC without the RC really catching on, but they're not going to get a whole ship without a lot of foul play.


And yes, I think the Guild would know that. The RC is not a "closed" society - it doesn't have checkpoints and the movement of its citizens is limited by the paucity of ships available to move them in, not some internal control policy. I don't think it's hard for a Guild member to pose as an "innocent" free trader on some relatively open world (there's a few of those, even in Wildspace) or show up to some Auction in the RC and start chewing the fat with various people, trading information, buying people drinks, and just watching the news/reading the newspapers.

 

[Gadrin]

Okay, did some thinking last night about this subject

1. The Guild resorts to piracy to get new ships, so yes, they probably don't
purchase ships; or at least when they don't have to.

2. The Guild has some sort of Knowledge Monopoly and it says they have the
knowlege to "build and repair starships" -- PoT p145

3. The Guild holds "effective total monopoly" on how to plot Deep Space Jumps
-- PoT p145. I have to think "Deep Space Jumps" is not your regular jump, due
to the fact there are the RC and the Free Trader Network out there jumping
around too. At the moment Deep Space Jumps are something akin to "empty hex
jumps" the Aslans "deep space jumps" (AM1 p38). Same exact wording.

4. Guild doesn't often back strong candidates, their MO usually follows the
"divide and conquer" formula.

5. To supply TEDs and develop markets, they have to have a manufacturing
base. Undoubtedly this is where the "wealthy guild captains" get their wealth
from: a supply they can return to over and over again.


>

 

[shield]

okay

some guild thoughts

"The Guild resorts to piracy to get new ships, so yes, they probably don't
purchase ships; or at least when they don't have to."

Piracy is risky, all that gun fire, easier to extort / intimidate the crew to join the guild, get a TED to turn over a derelict in exchange for goodies, or just restore a derelict.


"2. The Guild has some sort of Knowledge Monopoly and it says they have the
knowlege to "build and repair starships" -- PoT p145"

They have a B class port on Jump and its ability to perform annual maintenance is probably a big selling point to get people to join the guild. They can certainly repair ships using slavaged parts and some new build. As for building a new ship - possible with lots of salvaged gear and some new build. but very much a cottage industry based on Jump's population. It is noted in Guilded Lilly that a new guild ship is a big surprise.

"To supply TEDs and develop markets, they have to have a manufacturing
base. Undoubtedly this is where the "wealthy guild captains" get their wealth
from: a supply they can return to over and over again."

Yes its a combination of properly run salvage sites especially for the high tech stuff no longer in manufacture. The other obvious source of supply is the TEDS themselves. You give a TL8 TED a nice bunch of relic equipment and get his slave labourers to make TL8 crunch gun ammo and other TL8 stuff. Ship this to a TL6 TED and in exchange his slaves make TL5 crunch guns. Then sell the guns to the really low tech TEDs.

Just uploaded a short essay on the guild in Diasporia and what they might be doing and where. Its in the COTI files library

Cheers
Richard