TNE questions.

[whartung]

I guess you could argue 3 seperate scenarios.

One is the "Legacy of the Herorot" scenario. One way trip with no real followup, or very long gaps between contact (years, not months).

The next, is the supported colony as Badbru discusses. Most of early America was like this.

And finally, there's the decline of a more advanced civilization.

The technological hurdles are two fold: knowledge and resources.

I think most of us would agree that knowledge would not be a limiting factor. Experience, yes (it's one thing to know how to build a steam boiler, and another to actually do it). Granted, we take ubiquitous knowledge for granted today (between Google and Amazon, we can learn pretty much anything of practical value today). But even a robust colonization effort would have decent knowledge transfer (bringing two paper copies of "Encyclopedia of Colonization" covering everything from structural engineering and animal husbandry to basic pharmaceuticals and agriculture). "Here's everything you need to know about how to build a machine to read these CD-ROMS which will have everything else you need. When you can build a machine that can read the media, you're ready for the material on the media."

Seriously, for the skeptical, imagine taking vast amounts of information, compressing it, using any algorithm, and printing out the result on durable stock. Describe the algorithm in plain language, and let the bored "Monks" start decoding it in their free time -- by hand if necessary. (There's a competition to compress Wikipedia -- they have 100MB down to 16MB now.)

So, anyway, I'm assuming that knowledge can be transferred to the colony, and recoverable.

Next is resources.

The nut there will be metals, frankly. Finding a supply near enough to the colony and processing it properly. It takes a lot of work to extract metal from the ground, the Earth does not give up its bounty easily. But anyone who has studied mining and prospecting knows that two guys with some picks, shovels and a mule can make large holes in hard rock given time. It's a LOT of work, but it can be done.

But you have to build up that labor pool and be able to have enough to allocate to other production besides simply food and shelter.

That's where the horses and cattle and other beasts of burden come in. It's cheaper to have a stable hand care for a few dozen animals which can then be used for, well, horsepower. Better to have 4 horses driving a water pump than 4 men. They grow faster, can pull more weight, and you can eat them when you're done. And the 4 men could be tending to other animals. Beasts of burden are great force multipliers.

So, in truth, I think that colony placement has the largest affect on colony success. The closer to resources useful for industrialization, while still being able to feed the colony, the faster that industrialization can occur.

But putting the colony on a desert island with nothing but mango, coconuts and fish gives you a fishing colony -- and perhaps a bunch of hot chicks running around half naked.

 

[Greg]

1) Shipping volume. How much incoming supplies does the colony need? Is the available shipping tonnage sufficient? Keep in mind that the higher the tech, the more spare parts and supplies you'll need to carry. So bringing parts and construction gear to build a few small local manufacturing workshops might be a wise choice - it cuts down on the transport requirements; and in the New Era, there's always a shortage of ships. Producing food, water and life-support supplies locally really helps as these tend to take up a hefty volume.

I think you are being penny wise, pound foolish. Manual labor costs shipping volume, and lots of it. Most high-tech equipment is such a powerful force multiplier that a single far trader full of, say, robotic grav-assisted mining equipment can outproduce a hundred shiploads of manual laborers. Which will the shipping-limited Reformation Coalition prefer?

 

[Terry McInnes]

The colony described in the World Tamer's Handbook colonization adventure was originally settle by colonists from Baldur and Oriflamme. The main reason was to escape the harsh environment (physical and political) of their home worlds and settle a new world where they could breath the air and live free lives. They took the chance that they could produce or find valuable exports that coud be traded for goods from their home worlds. If they can't produce exports in relatively short order, the colony could die.

That being said, that was just one scenario you can use in a colonial campaign. There is nothing stopping a referee from establishing a mining colony on a bare vacuum world. Colonization can be whatever you want. I chose the campaign I included because I wanted to include the feel of the raw frontier in Traveller New Era, something that to my mind has been missing. I also thought it made a neat element in my novel.

One major fault in all versions of Traveller is that people tend to get hung up on rules and designs. (The Gearhead Syndrome) To me, the basic point of the game is to adventure and have fun. I hope a frontier colony is one setting where you can do just that.

 

[Golan2072]

I think you are being penny wise, pound foolish. Manual labor costs shipping volume, and lots of it. Most high-tech equipment is such a powerful force multiplier that a single far trader full of, say, robotic grav-assisted mining equipment can outproduce a hundred shiploads of manual laborers. Which will the shipping-limited Reformation Coalition prefer?

Why do you think that I've talked about developing a local industrial infrastructure in the next paragraph (and bringing equipment to set up the local industrial capabilities)? That's exactly the reason - local labor should be industrialized to make it efficient.

 

[Greg]

But you talk about plows and muskets and diesel tractors while reserving the fusion reactor for a select few industries like the hospital. I do not understand how you decide which industries require imported technology and which are developed locally at ~TL 6.

 

[jfwking]

Most high-tech equipment is such a powerful force multiplier that a single far trader full of, say, robotic grav-assisted mining equipment can outproduce a hundred shiploads of manual laborers. Which will the shipping-limited Reformation Coalition prefer?

So you want to ship 500 autonimous farming and industrial robots on RC shipping. Well your paper work seems to be in order Captain. Now if you would like to come over to the high port to thumb print, sorry did you say you never leave your ship. Come to mention it your voice is a little, erm, lacking in emotional tones. What was your name again captain. Hey wait a minute why are these farming robots powering up..........................

 

[Golan2072]

But you talk about plows and muskets and diesel tractors while reserving the fusion reactor for a select few industries like the hospital. I do not understand how you decide which industries require imported technology and which are developed locally at ~TL 6.

I'm sorry for being unclear, as you've clearly misunderstood me: the muskets, tractors, plows and AK47s were examples for items that need relatively little infrastructure to sustain and the hospital was an example for something that requires an infrastructure. Blame sleep-deprivation and over-long work-shifts for this.

To make it clear, my point was that a higher-tech on-site infrastructure was, in fact, needed if you need to run a large-scale colony. And that infrastructure is first and foremost power-generating infrastructure (almost everything beyond TL7 requires electricity to run, or, for the very least, maintain).

I apologize again for writing this while being groggy and messing it all up

 

[Ishmael]

It seems to me that diesel tractors would be a waste compared to horses in that you'd have to import the fuel...at least until you had a refinery of some sort...and drilling to get crude..alcohol powered is better, I suppose. AK47's are easy to maintain, but making new ammo is rough if you can't get lead or powder easily...or making casings to exact ( relatively ) tolerances.

If the point of a colony is to be self-sufficient, and not just a mining outpost that'll fold up once the vein peters out, or some other off-world supported moneymaker, then simply importing everything without being able to maintain ( make replacement parts, etc ) it seems a bit short sighted.... not to mention giving another planet total control over you...gov type 6. But hey, revolutions have to happen somewhere.

Beasts of burden make their own replacements given food, and they themselves are edible. Try that with mechanized stuff.

 

[Terry McInnes]

I came across a quote today that I would like to paraphrase:
"We on this planet should never forget that men first crossed light years not to find soil for their plows but to secure liberty for their souls."

This quote illustrates to me a major motivation for forming a colony throughout history and in the future.

 

[whartung]

AK47's are easy to maintain, but making new ammo is rough if you can't get lead or powder easily...or making casings to exact ( relatively ) tolerances.

Each colonist family gets an AK47 and a 1000 rounds of ammo. Barring armed insurrection to consume the ammo, that will keep in a corner with practically zero maintenance for 20 years, especially with a synthetic stock. Load on Monday, and shoot all MONTH. 1000 rounds is a standard loadout of a modern Light Machine Gun infantrymen. What's a normal soldier carry nowadays, 200-300 rounds of ammo? The point being this is not a lot of ammo.

I assert if the colonists need to rely on 20 year old cartridge ammunition, that the colony has some real problems.

Beasts of burden make their own replacements given food, and they themselves are edible. Try that with mechanized stuff.

The key is simply resources. A machine shop with two lathes and the proper raw material is practically self-sustaining. As they say, the lathe is the only machine that can duplicate itself. While that may or may not be true, it is true of a modestly equipped machine shop. Given enough raw material, machine shops can make more machine shops. Given enough machine oil to protect it, the machinery itself is practically immortal.

Horses make horses, machine shops make machines.

Wheelwrights and blacksmiths did amazing things with hammers and hot rocks. Most early auto mechanics were blacksmiths.

Bring enough machine tools to build a smelter and small steel mill, and park it next to a rich iron deposit. First things you start making are more smelters and more machine tools. Hell, don't build the colony ship out of exotic carbon fiber and Superdense. Build it out of steel and aluminum. Then the colony can land and recycle the ship for raw materials.

Basic chemistry can go a long way to tranmuting local raw materials into useful things like explosives, and internal combustion engines run on all sorts of fuels. Gasoline just happens to be handy and plentiiful. And when you talk about needing a refinery to make diesel (or whatever), sure you do. But don't think "Standard Oil", think "Grandpa's still". You can make small refineries.

Think how much work could be done with 50 gallons of diesel in a motor. What do you do first with that 50 gallons? Create the raw material to make another 50 gallons. After that, you can use the surplus for new work. Rinse and repeat to the level of industrialization necessary, sustainable, or desired.

Water wheels, wind power, etc are all useful. Look at Harpers Ferry. The armory was placed there specifically to leverage the Potomac and Shenandoah rivers for power.

Modern steel has been around since the 1600's (obviously it has got better quality since then). The technology to make this stuff isn't rocket science, and most importantly, the knowledge to make this kind of stuff won't have to be relearned.

The game is getting the raw resources to be refined, and that kind of information would need to be attained during the planetary survey, and would affect the placement of the colony.

I don't think any colony population plans on using flints to start fires, wear animal skins for clothes, and live in caves with stone spears. And I would like to think that a reasonably forward thinking colony project would make re-industrialization a key factor in the colonies survival, and equip accordingly to bootstrap that as quickly as possible.

 

[Starviking]

Location, location, location

The higher your tech-level is, the more infrastructure - both physical and social - you'll need to maintain and operate it and the more diverse raw materials you'll need. A small country (or even mid-sized city) with the right know-how and good sources of metal could probably maintain TL4 all by itself; TL5 requires a somewhat larger economy.

Whilst that might hold for worlds in normal development, the planetary locations of interstellar colonies might mitigate this a bit.

Here's an example from where I live, Northern Japan. In my prefecture there is one area that had a reasonable amount of oil, silver, gold and coal. All sources have now been economically exhausted, but they all lasted up until the 60's-70's. This area is about 40km long by 15km wide. Also has a lot of hydro resources and plains for farming.

Now let's imagine a similar area on a world an interstellar polity is considering colonising - but just as a low/medium priority. The reasons may be many, lack of resources, wanting to spread colonisation efforts over the greatest amount of systems feasable (We claim these stars!) , or a private colonisation effort.

The scout team do a orbital survey, identify good seed colony sites, then zero in on the perfect site using densitometers. They return to base, present the survey results, make their recommendations, the bureaucracy decides some things and voila! The colonists depart to set up their colony.

They have fuel, minerals, food and water to support their growth and expansion for decades, if not centuries.

They know the exact location of the oil, coal and minerals - and have detailed plans of how to get them. They know the climate and geography of the whole planet, and they have had their expansion areas mapped and surveyed to great detail.

Most importantly, the initial colony setup procedure included setting up mineral extraction facilities, dams, hydro plants using high tech equipment (for speed), but TL5-6 equipment - manufactured from durable high tech materials for utilization. None of the gears of society are going to come crashing down unless nature or society does something about it.

Durable Diesel engines, turbines, lights, boilers, etc can be provided that can be run indefinitely with normal maintenance.

Possibly the homeworld could also provide durable TL8-9 processors, sensors and control gear of high tech manufacture, making the colony virtually a TL8 or 9 settlement.

This is a colony that can expand on its own if necessary, and keep itself at higher tech levels than a normal society of that population level. With trade and reasonable support from home it might be able to achive a decent population level and tech level in a generation or two. If their local resources are valuable enough they might also be able to afford some of the luxuries of life (air rafts, automeds, satellites, etc) without having to rely on the Bureau of Colonisation.

I'm assuming an Earth-like planet here, but this system could be made to work in slightly more hostile environments (Atmo 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, D, E, F; Hydro 1-9).

Starviking

P.S. Just south of this area is a town that has it's own municipal oil well, which is used to provide heating oil for the town.

 

[whartung]

Whilst that might hold for worlds in normal development, the planetary locations of interstellar colonies might mitigate this a bit.

Here's an example from where I live, Northern Japan. In my prefecture there is one area that had a reasonable amount of oil, silver, gold and coal. All sources have now been economically exhausted, but they all lasted up until the 60's-70's. This area is about 40km long by 15km wide. Also has a lot of hydro resources and plains for farming.

Precisely.

If a Jump capable society wants to colonize a planet, they're going to do the necessary prep work to make it as successful as possible, and this includes scout surveys to find locations like this.

Even if the colony ship was sent out blindly to a planet that "should" work, I would think that they'd come in with the capability to find such a spot upon arrivial.

Basically imagine a colony ship with 2-4 small craft with the appropriate sensors, as well as theability to refine fuel from sea water. The ship can land the colony someplace with a reasonable climate and then they use the small craft to scout the rest of the planet looking for a more permanent site.

Once they find that site, they can move the colony to it. Until then, they can live off of a combination of ship stores and local foodstuffs. The premise being basically they plan to leverage the offworld tech with the goal to become free of its dependency as quickly as practical.

So that means bringing enough spares (including cannibalization of other machinery) to maintain the colony through its settlement phase and get them through their early industrialization phase. I would like to think that things like fusion reactors will be maintainable for a few years without carrying vast amounts of parts. A fusion powered starship with a couple of fusion powered small craft should provide a vast surplus of power for quite some time.

None of this prevents domesticated livestock or work animals. They could well be used in the early years, notably for transportation: scouts on horses, wagons for hauling, etc. But a couple of John Deere tractors can plant and prepare a LOT of acreage very efficientlty.

 

[epicenter00]

The colony described in the World Tamer's Handbook colonization adventure was originally settle by colonists from Baldur and Oriflamme. The main reason was to escape the harsh environment (physical and political) of their home worlds and settle a new world where they could breath the air and live free lives.

Okay, I get this part. So they're essentially exiles. They don't have the standard "set up" package that a government would provide them* because they'd be beholden to their governments (the same governments they disagree with). So they wouldn't be quite as well supported.

They took the chance that they could produce or find valuable exports that coud be traded for goods from their home worlds. If they can't produce exports in relatively short order, the colony could die.

You lost me here. If they have good enough relations to still be able to trade with their homeworlds (as opposed to moving their trade to Aubaine or something), I would think they would have some basic support - at least not so bad that they would die off.


* I would think in the Traveller universe, people have been colonizing planets for thousands of years - so I would think colonization isn't quite the monumental effort it is to imagine now.

 

[Terry McInnes]

Using the term "die off" may have been too harsh. I did not mean that literally. "Fail" would have been more accurate. The point I was trying to make was that not all colonies succeed. Some may fail for economic reasons, mis-management, etc. If the colony does not produce a marketable product to earn income and pay back the home world's investment, support from the home world could dry up and the colonists would be forced to return home.

That being said, the rules in World Tamers Handbook provide for catastrophes that could wipe out a colony. Then it really would die off.