TOEs

[Vargas]

A question to the assembled multitudes: what kinds of TOEs do non-human military forces have? For example, would Aslan follow the same triangular structure humans follow or do they do something different? (I tend toward the latter). How about K'kree and Droyne? (I can guess the answer for Vargr )

 

[mike wightman]

I would go for each alien race doing things their own way.

In fact I would go for minor human races doing things differently too.

 

[ElHombre]

droyne would likely use an element of six. (it's ALWAYS six!) but a good reason most terrna armies use the old system of three units plus a support element is because it works. two up, one back will cover most situations that a unit will come up against.

one to hold the front, another to swing around, the last to cover the other two's butts in case things go wrong.

the fun with aliens is those 'support' units. zhos will use their teleport commandoes, aslan might have a 'berserker' unit, k'kree will have their centaur artillery (hey, they're as big as a horse. let 'em carry BIG guns!).

 

[BetterThanLife]

There is a canon Aslan Mercenary Unit, which, while organized in a superficially similar way to Imperial units also shows racial differences. Remember span of control is still going to be in the 3-5 unit range as none of the alien races are that different in terms of intellectual capability, Droyne being a possible exception.

Remember also that your enemy is going to influence your TO&E. So while they may develope differently at the outset, when they clash things are going to get similar. Your TO&E is going to be based on perceived enemy and potential enemy capability and organization. Since the Imperium is the biggest bully on the block, attention is going to be paid, at least with the major races and political entities, to how the Imperium does things. Will they all have the same solutions to similar problems. No! Absolutely not. However they will look, at least on the surface, similar.

 

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
*snip*
Remember also that your enemy is going to influence your TO&E. So while they may develope differently at the outset, when they clash things are going to get similar. Your TO&E is going to be based on perceived enemy and potential enemy capability and organization. Since the Imperium is the biggest bully on the block, attention is going to be paid, at least with the major races and political entities, to how the Imperium does things. Will they all have the same solutions to similar problems. No! Absolutely not. However they will look, at least on the surface, similar.

This also means that Humaniti´s galactic neighbors are encourage to keep their TOE at least superficially similar to Humaniti´s, to lull them into thinking that their forces are organized just like human forces - while keeping an organizational surprise up their sleeves (or whereever it is that these aliens keep their surprises).

 

[Badbru]

I would have thought that the Aslan "base four" number system from their four digit hands might have influenced their TO&Es but I don't recall anything in Canon about it. Although there is an Aslan TO&E/unit writeup in one of the JTAS issues isn't there?

 

[stofsk]

The hell is a 'TOE?' I'm no good with acronyms.

Something to do with unit formations?

 

[mike wightman]

TOE = troops, organization, & equipment according to some,

TOE = table of organization & equipment according to others.

 

[veltyen]

Table of Organisation and Equipment.

Units, how they are organised and what they are equiped with. Often nested within each other for sanity reasons. Very standard military term.

For example the kit that every soldier is equipped with (theoretically) is listed, but generally only once, differences are noted.

A simple squad TOE might go something like.

-Mech Infantry Squad-
Squad commander (Sargeant)
Comms
Medic
3 * Gauss Rifle Infantry
Gauss Rifle Marksman
Support weapon (Light Mortar)
Heavy weapon (PGMP)
Heavy weapon assist
G-Carrier
G-Carrier Crew (Pilot, Gunner, Comm)

With appendices for what each individual soldier in that position is armed with, and what is carried as standard on the G-Carrier. Later on the above might be assigned into a platoon, where in the same fashion it becomes

Command Unit
3 * Mech Inf Squad

...and so on up to divisional and army levels. Theoretically most countries should be able to assemble a TOE for ... well basically the lot, all armed forces and how they fit together.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I agree that Aslan would probably go with a quad organization. I generated (w/ T5 playtest materials) an alien race with two sets of arms with different numbers of digits on each side - and then tried to build a ship around that rather unique measuring/counting system. Their military (or, more probably Merchant) organizational chart would be terribly complicated....

 

[Rotters2]

Sigg Oddra says:
TOE = troops, organization, & equipment according to some,

TOE = table of organization & equipment according to others

I always thought a TOE was one of those little things that you find at the end of your FOOT????

 

[BMonnery]

Aye, the canonical Imperial Platoon TOE from Book 4 was:

Platoon HQ (1 Officer (2LT or LT), 1 Gunnery Sergeant plus one (Lance Corporal Signaller?))
2 Sections, each with
1 Section Commander (Sergeant)
2 Squads
1 Squad Leader (Lance Sergeant)
2x 4 man fireteams (Commanded by Corporal/ Lance Corporal)

1 Officer, 7 Sergeants, 33 Junior Ranks

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Badbru:
I would have thought that the Aslan "base four" number system from their four digit hands might have influenced their TO&Es but I don't recall anything in Canon about it. Although there is an Aslan TO&E/unit writeup in one of the JTAS issues isn't there?

According to Aslan Mercenary Cruisers (FASA 1982) The Teahleikhoi Regiment, which is mentioned in many other canon references, is organized as follows.

2 Fireteams of 4 individuals plus a squad leader make up a squad. 1 individual in 3/4ths of the fireteams carries a PGMP-14 the rest are armed with Gauss Rifles. In the remaining 1/4 of fireteams the PGMP gunner is replaced with a medic. There are 4 infantry squads in a platoon, plus the Platoon Leader, Platoon Sergeant and a vehicle squad consisting of a single fire support vehicle with a crew of 3. (Total in the platoon is 41.) A Company is 4 Platoons, 2 sp artillery vehicles (crew 3 each), a Maintenance section with 25 individuals, Aid Station with 9 individuals (6 medics, 3 drivers), Logistics section (5 individuals), and the Company HQ.

Now it specifies that Mechanics are females and low caste males, since Aslan Males, the combat troops, don't maintain their gear. It also states that the logistics personnel are also lowcaste males or female. The Company Commander is assisted by a Male Senior NCO and a Female Exec, who handles the day to day running of the company, book keeping, paperwork, etc.

It also specifies that a speciality platoon may be supplied to the Company to reinforce it.

AFAIK that is the only canon reference to an alien TO&E. It is extremely similar to a typical Human organization, except for the differentiation of roles by gender and caste.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
Aye, the canonical Imperial Platoon TOE from Book 4 was:

Platoon HQ (1 Officer (2LT or LT), 1 Gunnery Sergeant plus one (Lance Corporal Signaller?))
2 Sections, each with
1 Section Commander (Sergeant)
2 Squads
1 Squad Leader (Lance Sergeant)
2x 4 man fireteams (Commanded by Corporal/ Lance Corporal)

1 Officer, 7 Sergeants, 33 Junior Ranks

Actually there is no reference to an Imperial organization in LBB4. The unit in question is an example of a Mercenary Unit Organization and many of the numbers are in a range. The Canon Imperial Marine references are in Adventure 1 (The Kinunir) which has a Platoon of 35 and 4 officers, which is more like a Spec Ops Cadre Unit than a line unit. Supplement 5 lists the Marine Complement of 150 Marines aboard an AHL class Cruiser as a Company and Supplement 9 lists 200 as a reinforced Company (Ghalalk class Armored Cruiser.) and 8000-16000 as the equivalent of a reinforced division. (Kokirrak Class Drednaught.)

There have been some references to organization of Imperial forces in later books but they are generally very vague. (Rebellion sourcebook as an example gives no real clue as to how big units are.)

 

[leadhead]

Canonical TO&E for the Imperial Marines appeared in JTAS 12 (p42).

Canonical TO&E for Zhodani Commandoes and Regular Line units appeared in JTAS 11 (p26).

Canonical TO&E for the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarls (4518th Lift Infantry Regt) appeared in JTAS 9 (p12) and was reprinted in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'

TO&E for a Navy Battle Squadron also appeared in 'The Spinward Marches Campaign'

A standard Imperial Marine platoon is
HQ: 1 Fire Support APC (driver, gunner, platoon Lt., platoon sgt.)

Squads (x5): APC (driver, gunner, squad leader, and 2 four-man fire teams)

Total: 6 APC, 59 men

 

[BMonnery]

Per book 4

A Fireteam is 4 men
A Squad is 9 men
A Section is 19 men
A Platoon is 41 men (including an officer)

The org chart falls out of this and books very like the Starship Troopers (book) platoon Orgchart of:

Platoon Commander (Generally 2Lt)
Platoon Sergeant (Ships Sergeant)
2 Sections of:
Section Leader (Sgt) and Assistant Section Leader (Cpl) with:
3 Squads of 8 men lead by a Corporal with a Lance Corporal as assistant

The Kinuir unit appears to be a Special Forces Company:

Force Commander (Force Commander (Major))
Company First Sergeant (First Sergeant)
Clerk (Corporal)
Vehicle Driver (Pte)

3 Squads of:
Squad Leader (1st Lieutenant)
3x 3 men Fireteams (Lead by a Cpl thru Leading Sergeant)

Definately a Spec Ops type arrangement, although their skill levels are recruit level (CRM 1 etc.)

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
Per book 4...

As already pointed out in this thread, the TOE from LBB:4 is of a mercenary company. Whether that TOE bares any resemblence to an Imperial TOE is open to serious debate.

The Kinuir unit appears to be a Special Forces Company: (snip) Definately a Spec Ops type arrangement, although their skill levels are recruit level (CRM 1 etc.)

The marine force and naval crew aboard Kinunir were generated with LBB:1 and are therefore 'skill poor' when compared to characters generated with LBB:4 and LBB:5 systems.

Again, what can be inferred from those TOEs is open to serious question especially considering that the ranks and skills present were not generated using CT's final chargen system.

YM obviously Vs.


Bill

 

[Scarecrow]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
2 Fireteams of 4 individuals plus a squad leader make up a squad.

So that's 9 individuals, right? Or is the Squad Leader one of the 8 making up the two Fireteams?

1 individual in 3/4ths of the fireteams carries a PGMP-14 the rest are armed with Gauss Rifles. In the remaining 1/4 of fireteams the PGMP gunner is replaced with a medic.

This is where I get really confused. So, if there are four fireteams (2 squads), one individual in three of those four teams carries a PGMP - ie three individuals carrying PGMPs and 1 medic? So 1 Squad would have 2 PGMPs and 1 Squad would have a PGMP and a Medic?

Or does it mean that only one individual in all of those three fireteams carries a PGMP, ie 1 individual out of 12, and the fourth fireteam has a medic?

The reason I ask, is that I've been getting interested in Stargrunt II recently and I'm considering expanding some of the military sets of my paper miniatures into full blown companies for use in the game.

Crow

 

[tjoneslo]

GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces has the extended TOE for the Imperial Army and Marines. In detail. Including exact counts of officers, vehicles and weapons used. I believe the TOE is the same as the one in JTAS, but expanded to include more details.

GT:AR3 has a few paragraphs about Dryone military. It is based upon groups of six. A squad has six Warriors, a platoon has 30 warriors plus another support squad consisting of a Leader, and a number of Dryones (for medical treatment) and Technicians (for equipment repair), and possible a Scout.

GT:AR3 also goes on to point out the Hiver have no Military, being complete pacifists. They do however have the Ithklur and lots of robots. Presumably they use a similar to human three pronged squads, supplemented with combat robots.

GT:AR2 discusses the K'kree military. There are the Crazies who are the elite, and everyone else. Basic military organization is the ring'r (platoon), a group of 50 armed K'kree. With heavy weapons, and a 5,000 ton transport. If one or two ring'r are insufficient to address the problem, the whole herd shows up with lots of recon by fire to flatten everything. K'kree are not subtle creatures.

GT:AR2 has the Aslan in differing sized groups, with a squad of 4 to 12 depending upon circumstance. Aslan use a base 8 numbering system so squads of 4 or 8 make perfect sense to them. (Point of confusion joke: Aslan says there are 10 members in his squad, human counts only 8 and asks where the other two are...)

GT:AR1 has a complete TOE for the Zhodani military, based around the JTAS article, but again expanded.

And as expected, Vargr militaries are variable.

Any aliens that I missed?

 

[mbrinkhues]

Btw: The Three+One organisation is not the only one used by humans. Actually just within the last 100 years the organisations have changed every 10-20 years on average (i.e Germany currently has the fifth organisational form since 1955 - and the most useless IMHO(1))

1+3+1 (One Staff/Supply, 3 Combat, 1 Combat Support with Artillery/Tanks/Combat Eng) per batallion is not that uncommon.

Infantry Platoon and Squad size is often based on vehicle capacities. I.e a truck or M113 based platoon is 10 dismounts(Including an NCO)+driver, a Bradley or Marder based one is 6 dismounts+3 crew(Including an NCO). Platoons can be anything from three to six squads with either 4 or 3+heavy weapons being common.

Companies have the same variety. 3-4 platoons plus a support/staff platoon. Again the number often depends on where the heavy weapons (mortars, GPMG, AGL) are located

Artillery companies (aka Batteries) have anything from 4 to 12 tubes per unit and tanks have been organised in anything from 3-6 per platoon(troop).


Hv. weapons companies can be anything from a rather uniform 12 tracked mortars and two observation tanks to 6 tanks, six towed mortars and six towed 20mm autoguns. Or maybe you prefer assault guns?

Special companies like air defence, scout or tank hunters are totally wild. If you need a reason to mix medium tanks and armored cars call it a rece unit.


So just by looking through the real world TOE's of the last 50 years those of us without access to JTAS / GURPS Alien races should find something for all the races.

(1) Not enough tanks and infantryman, to many (>= 1) special forces