Trade and Commerce

[ovka]

Part 1 of 8

So, I've been thinking about trade and commerce in Traveller lately. :CoW: :nonono: The first thing that occurs to me is that we may be approaching this backwards. The second thing that occurs to me is we may need to throw out one or more of the core assumptions we have always used.

There have been a few long threads on these boards concerning the economic feasibility of interstellar trade given various Traveller rule sets. Here are two:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=21552

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=33575

The general result of these threads is that given the current trade rules, it isn't practical to run a trading ship at greater than jump-1 over a long period of time. This directly conflicts with established canon which tells us that the megacorps have ships that follow the xboat routes throughout the Imperium for long distance freight and passenger service. That says to me that at least some of the megacorps have a fleet of jump-4 traders. We also have established canon with a few cases of jump-5 freighters, though those may be relegated to bulk ore carriers within the Imperium and special use cases outside of the Imperium.

One of the standard tropes of science fiction is starting out with a tramp trader and earning enough money to establish a shipping company. In fact, Oberlindes lines is a canon example of where this happened. It is an ideal that we hold out to players who wish to have that type of campaign. Unfortunately, unless the players are willing to continuously speculate on cargos, the numbers don't really allow success outside of the jump-1 mains. If long distance interstellar trade isn't economically viable, then it is hard (for me) to accept the large amount of charted space that has been settled.

I am going to break this post up into several smaller posts since it is so large.

<to be continued>

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[ovka]

Part 2 of 8

I will start by defining MU to be a generic monetary unit. It doesn't really matter if MU represents 1 US dollar from 1800, 10 Euros from 2015, 100 clam shells, or 1000 Imperial Credits from IY 1105 on a TL 15 world with a class A starport. It is just a generic monetary unit.

Next I will define HU to be a generic handling unit. HU isn't a T5 size benchmark, it isn't a mass, and it isn't a volume, it is a generic unit of measure that combines mass and volume, and measures how much effort (including any special handling) is required to ship the item. The actual mass and volume don't really matter, it is the effort to ship the item that matters.

Then I will define DU to be a generic distance unit. DU isn't a T5 distance or range benchmark. It doesn't really matter if DU represents 1 parsec, 10 AU, 100 km or 1000 m. It is just a generic distance unit.

Finally I will define TU to be a generic time unit. It doesn't really matter if TU represents 1 year, 10 months, 100 weeks or 1000 hours. It is just a generic time unit.

Now, lets consider how shipping works today. If I want to send a package, I tell the shipper what I am shipping, where I want to ship it to, and when I want it to arrive. The generic shipping charge calculation would be Charge = MU * HU * DU * (DU / TU). This doesn't mean multiply and divide these values, it means that as HU increases, MU increases; as DU increases, MU increases; as DU increases, TU increases; and as TU decreases, MU increases. In order to use this calculation, I have to define what MU, HU, DU, and TU mean, and the actual formula I want to use for combining them.

<to be continued>

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[ovka]

Part 3 of 8

Example 1
To make things easy on me, I will set MU to be 1 2015 US dollar; HU to be a 1 kg, 1 liter item with no special handling; DU to be 1 km; TU to be 100 days; and my formula to be Charge = MU * HU * DU * DU / TU. These are some nice, round numbers, and a simple formula.

Example 1a
Let's say that I want to ship an item that is 1 HU over a distance of 1 km, and I want it to arrive some time in the next 100 days. The shipper tells me that the shipping charge will be $1 [$1 * 1 * 1 * 1 / 1].

Example 1b
Assuming everything else is the same as 1a, if the item is 2 HU (2 kg and 2 liter with no special handling), the shipping charge increases to $2 [$1 * 2 * 1 * 1 / 1].

Example 1c
Assuming everything else is the same as 1a, if the distance is 2 km, and I allow the time to double, the shipping charge increases to $2 [$1 * 1 * 2 * 2 / 2].

Example 1d
Assuming everything else is the same as 1a, if I need the item to arrive in the next 10 days (1/10 TU), the shipping charge increases to $10 [$1 * 1 * 1 * 1 / (1/10)].

Example 1e
Using the same formula, to ship an item that is 100 HU (100 kg and 100 liter with no special handling) over a distance of 1000 km in 1 day, the shipping charge increases to $10,000,000,000 [$1 * 100 * 1000 * 1000 / (1/100)]. Nice work if you can get it.


Example 2
For this example, I am going to keep the same values for MU, HU, DU, and TU as example 1 and change the formula so that the charge changes logarithmically based on decreases in time (and time increases linearly based on changes in distance). My formula is now Charge = MU * HU * DU * (1 + log(DU/TU)). I added the +1 because of the ways logarithms work (log(1) = 0), and to account for a change in shipping methods as the amount of time diminishes (trucks vs trains vs planes).

Example 2a
Let's say that I want to ship an item that is 1 HU over a distance of 1 km, and I want it to arrive some time in the next 100 days. The shipper tells me that the shipping charge will be $1 [$1 * 1 * 1 * (1 + log(1/1))].

Example 2b
Assuming everything else is the same as 2a, if the item is 2 HU (2 kg and 2 liter with no special handling), the shipping charge increases to $2 [$1 * 2 * 1 * (1 + log(1/1))].

Example 2c
Assuming everything else is the same as 2a, if the distance is 2 km, and I allow the time to double, the shipping charge increases to $2 [$1 * 1 * 2 * (1 + log(2/2))].

Example 2d
Assuming everything else is the same as 2a, if I need the item to arrive in the next 10 days, the shipping charge increases to $2 [$1 * 1 * 1 * (1 + log(1 / (1/10)))].

Example 2e
Using the same formula, to ship an item that is 100 HU (100 kg and 100 liter with no special handling) over a distance of 1000 km in 1 day, the shipping charge increases to $600,000 [$1 * 100 * 1000 * (1 + log(1000 / (1/100))].


Example 3
Keeping the same values for MU, HU, DU, and TU as example 1, I am going to change the formula so that it uses natural logs instead of base 10 logs. Note that in the case of fractional charges, values are rounded up to the nearest $0.01 to benefit the shipper.

Example 3a
Let's say that I want to ship an item that is 1 HU over a distance of 1 km, and I want it to arrive some time in the next 100 days. The shipper tells me that the shipping charge will be $1 [$1 * 1 * 1 * (1 + ln(1/1))].

Example 3b
Assuming everything else is the same as 3a, if the item is 2 HU (2 kg and 2 liter with no special handling), the shipping charge increases to $2 [$1 * 2 * 1 * (1 + ln(1/1))].

Example 3c
Assuming everything else is the same as 3a, if the distance is 2 km, and I allow the time to double, the shipping charge increases to $2 [$1 * 1 * 2 * (1 + ln(2/2))].

Example 3d
Assuming everything else is the same as 3a, if I need the item to arrive in the next 10 days, the shipping charge increases to $3.31[$1 * 1 * 1 * (1 + ln(1 / (1/10)))].

Example 3e
Using the same formula, to ship an item that is 100 HU (100 kg and 100 liter with no special handling) over a distance of 1000 km in 1 day, the shipping charge increases to $1,251,292.55 [$1 * 100 * 1000 * (1 + ln(1000 / (1/100))].

<to be continued>

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[ovka]

Part 4 of 8

Note that the scales don't need to move in even amounts, either linearly or logarithmically. A table that increases the value of a time decrease as the distance increases works as well (i.e. doubling the distance makes it more or less than twice as expensive to decrease the time). The point is, as I change the four parameters (MU, HU, DU, and TU), I change the shipping charge. The shipper would be crazy to give me a flat rate for anything that I want to ship.

So let's apply the generic shipping charge calculation to Traveller. In the T5.09 Rules, I see that shipping is a flat rate of Cr 1000 per dT to the ship's next port of call (i.e. per jump).

<to be continued>

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[ovka]

Part 5 of 8

Example 4
From the Traveller 5.09 rules, we set MU to be 1000 Cr; HU to be a 1 dT with no special handling; TU to be 1 jump; and the formula to be Charge = MU * HU * TU. Note DU isn't specified, and that 1 jump as a unit of time = 10 days for the first jump (including pickup, loading, out-system transit, jump, in-system transit, unloading, and delivery) and 14 days for each additional jump to enable shore-leave for the ship's crew between jumps.

Example 4a
Let's say that I want to ship an item that is 1 HU over a distance of 1 parsec, and I want it to arrive in the next 10 days. The shipper tells me that the shipping charge will be 1000 Cr [1000 Cr * 1 * 1].

Example 4b
Assuming everything else is the same as 4a, if the item is 2 HU (2 dT with no special handling), the shipping charge increases to 2000 Cr [1000 Cr * 2 * 1].

Example 4c
Assuming everything else is the same as 4a, if the distance is 2 parsecs, and I allow the time to double (2 jumps or 24 days, not 10 days), the shipping charge increases to 2000 Cr [1000 Cr * 1 * 2].

Example 4d
Assuming everything else is the same as 4a, if the distance is 6 parsecs, and I do not allow the time to increase (jump-6 ship), the shipping charge remains the same 1000 Cr [1000 Cr * 1 * 1].

Example 4e
Assuming everything else is the same as 4a, if the distance is 6 parsecs, and I allow the time to increase by a factor of 6 (jump-1 ship), the shipping charge increases to 6000 Cr [1000 Cr * 1 * 6].

<to be continued>

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[ovka]

Part 6 of 8

This calculation completely ignores the distance travelled, and it increases the shipping charge as the time increases rather than increasing the shipping charge as the time decreases.

So, how would I fix this? I am neither a mathemitician nor an economist. The examples below represent a layman's attempt at making something workable. I'm sure that someone who who is smarter than I am can do a better job.

<to be continued>

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[ovka]

Part 7 of 8

Example 5
I'll set MU to be 1000 Cr; HU to be 1 dT; DU to be 1 parsec; TU to be = n weeks where n = ((jumps * 2) - 0.5); and the formula to be Charge = MU * HU * DU * (1 + ln( ((DU*2)-0.5) / ((Jumps*2)-0.5) )). Note that in the case of fractional charges, values are rounded up to the nearest 1 Cr to benefit the shipper.

Example 5a
Let's say that I want to ship an item that is 1 HU over a distance of 1 parsec, and I want it to arrive in the next 10 days. The shipper tells me that the shipping charge will be 1000 Cr [1000 Cr * 1 * 1 * (1 + ln( (1*2)-0.5) / ((1*2)-0.5) ))].

Example 5b
Assuming everything else is the same as 5a, if the item is 2 HU (2 dT with no special handling), the shipping charge increases to 2000 Cr [1000 Cr * 2 * 1 * (1 + ln( (1*2)-0.5) / ((1*2)-0.5) ))].

Example 5c
Assuming everything else is the same as 5a, if the distance is 2 parsecs, and I allow the time to double (2 jumps or 24 days, not 10 days), the shipping charge increases to 2000 Cr [1000 Cr * 1 * 2 * (1 + ln( (2*2)-0.5) / ((2*2)-0.5) ))].

Example 5d
Assuming everything else is the same as 5a, if the distance is 6 parsecs, and I do not allow the time to increase (jump-6 ship), the shipping charge increases to $18,222 Cr [1000 Cr * 1 * 6 * (1 + ln( (6*2)-0.5) / ((1*2)-0.5) ))].

Example 5e
Assuming everything else is the same as 5a, if the distance is 6 parsecs, and I allow the time to increase by a factor of 6 (jump-1 ship), the shipping charge increases to 6,000 Cr [1000 Cr * 1 * 6 * (1 + ln( (6*2)-0.5) / ((6*2)-0.5) ))].

<to be continued>

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[ovka]

Part 8 of 8

The set of parameters in example 5 allows jump-1 ships to continue charging the canonical 1000 Cr per jump per dT. Higher jumps scale up the shipping charge as distance increases and time decreases. The assumptions also allow for the following conversation:

Captain Jamison: Let me get this straight. You have a cargo of 100 dT, and you need the shipment to arrive two parsecs away in 3 weeks time. 3-1/2 weeks isn't quick enough. Why don't you hire a jump-2 ship to haul your cargo? They can get it there for you in 1-1/2 weeks.
Patron Smith: Because 3700 Cr per dT is more than I can afford.
Captain Jamison: Well, I can do it, but not for the standard 2000 Cr for 2 jumps.
Patron Smith: <scoffing> Your costs won't be any higher. In fact, you'll be saving on your berthing fees.
Captain Jamison: Yes, but my crew would have to forgoe their shore leave between the jumps. I'll do it for 3000 Cr.
Patron Smith: <again scoffing> I'll give you 2500 Cr.
Captain Jamison: Call it 2700 and you have a deal.
Patron Smith: 2600 Cr.
Captain Jamison: <narrowing his eyes as he notes that the patron hasn't specified that the amount is per dT> 2700 Cr *per dt* is as low as I can go. That'll save you 100,000 Cr over a jump-2 freighter.

Using the parameters in example 5, we can derive the following shipping charges per dT. Ship captains are allowed to negotiate whatever terms they can get, but anything more than the below shipping charges are likely to cause a potential customer to walk away and find a cheaper shipping agent.

1 parsec
1-1/2 weeks = 1000 Cr

2 parsecs
1-1/2 weeks = 3695 Cr
3-1/2 weeks = 2000 Cr

3 parsecs
1-1/2 weeks = 6898 Cr
3-1/2 weeks = 4356 Cr
5-1/2 weeks = 3000 Cr

4 parsecs
1-1/2 weeks = 10,438 Cr
3-1/2 weeks = 7049 Cr
5-1/2 weeks = 5241 Cr
7-1/2 weeks = 4000 Cr

5 parsecs
1-1/2 weeks = 14,229 Cr
3-1/2 weeks = 9993 Cr
5-1/2 weeks = 7733 Cr
7-1/2 weeks = 6182 Cr
9-1/2 weeks = 5000 Cr

6 parsecs
1-1/2 weeks = 18,221 Cr
3-1/2 weeks = 13,138 Cr
5-1/2 weeks = 10,426 Cr
7-1/2 weeks = 8565 Cr
9-1/2 weeks = 7146 Cr
11-1/2 weeks = 6000 Cr

I don't know how these shipping charges stack up against the shipper's actual costs for different jump configurations. I will leave that as well as the actual formula to smarter people to determine.

Note, that if a rule change for 5.09 were to take place, I would not recommend providing the formula in the rules. I would recommend providing a table similar to the above, perhaps rounded off (or up or down) to the nearest 100 Cr. Making the shipping charge calculation extremely complicated is a high price to pay for the realism that would be gained.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[rancke]

The general result of these threads is that given the current trade rules, it isn't practical to run a trading ship at greater than jump-1 over a long period of time.

No, the general result of those threads is that you can't use rules for refereeing PC-run tramp ships to figure out how regular trade is run.

The most salient point is that the canonical per-jump costs are a game artifact to make running a free trader campaign easier. They are not realistic, but they are easier to use than realistic rules.

This directly conflicts with established canon which tells us that the megacorps have ships that follow the xboat routes throughout the Imperium for long distance freight and passenger service.

And that established canon conflicts with the canonical ship design rules which tells us that absent astrographical complications, two J2s convey freight and passengers across four parsecs cheaper than J4, leaving us with the choice of discounting that particular bit of canon or change ship design drastically.

That says to me that at least some of the megacorps have a fleet of jump-4 traders.

There are places where J4 ships are the cheapest solution. There are not many of them though, and there is no causation between J4 communication routes and trade routes.

We also have established canon with a few cases of jump-5 freighters, though those may be relegated to bulk ore carriers within the Imperium and special use cases outside of the Imperium.

Really? I thought the only reference to a J5 vessel in civilian hands was to an Oberlindes courier. Could you provide me with a reference, please?

One of the standard tropes of science fiction is starting out with a tramp trader and earning enough money to establish a shipping company. In fact, Oberlindes lines is a canon example of where this happened.

Well, starting with a big family-owned import/export firm and a number of ships owned by the family who pretended to be individual tramps because they didn't have an Imperial charter.

It is an ideal that we hold out to players who wish to have that type of campaign. Unfortunately, unless the players are willing to continuously speculate on cargos, the numbers don't really allow success outside of the jump-1 mains.

Well, speculating on cargoes is the way to do long-distance interstellar trade. Buy something, ship it to some place where you're confident that you can sell if for enough to cover the costs, sell it. But you're right about the Trading Game not working for regular trade. That's mostly because the basic costs of the available goods are too low. You don't ship generic textiles at Cr3000 per T from Regina to Vland. You ship special high-quality textile at Cr300,000 per T (Figure not to scale; it's grabbed out of thin air).

If long distance interstellar trade isn't economically viable, then it is hard (for me) to accept the large amount of charted space that has been settled.

It is viable. It's just not emulated correctly by the trade system.


Hans

 

[ovka]

It is viable. It's just not emulated correctly by the trade system.

Then help me come up with something that *does* more properly emulate the trade system. Not exactly, because that would be too cumbersome, but something that allows for useful trade flows that are more believable.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[kilemall]

I too have not been happy with the lack of 'time value' built into the default transport fee system, but then again original Traveller was written in a break-bulk freight world, the intermodal revolution was just underway and perhaps not clear in 1975-1977, and the game was hearkening back more to the tramp freighter era to generate adventure- Transport Noir, to perhaps extend the Space Noir motif a bit.

Part of the tension that would drive down prices beyond your formula is the capital invested in the ship, and the need to haul something, ANYTHING, to get some cash flow out of the available tonnage. Shippers certainly know about the time/cost pressure to get something into the hold.

Hmm, well now isn't that interesting- big container lines are investing in tramp freighters as a means to cut costs during economic downturns, when they can't fill the big ships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramp_trade

Interesting article, if for no other reason then the different kinds of chartering. The one where the charterer provides the crew could be a good part time merchant/smuggler mechanic.

Which brings up a point, the chartering a starship mechanic is likely going to undercut Captain Jamison's tough negotiating stance.

The shipper can note on his PortPad the Dog Star just pulled into port and has not set the next destination for opening passenger/cargo contracting. If he hurries, maybe he can get a whole ship at a rate of 90%, it goes when and where he wants without having to bother with high time critical costs.

At an A or B starport, the shipper will have the upper hand with all the available ships docking daily. At C, D or E, the ship owner/operator will have the upper hand and likely able to charge more then the normal charter rate.

The per jump fee is the big jump killer that pays off for the small ships, because of course you are not making up for all that extra drive, engineering crew and fuel usage for the higher jump ships.

A per parsec fee makes much more sense. Then the cost of operating that ship over several weeks comes into play with salaries, and the fuel costs the same (or the larger ships have merchant base/built in refiners and buys unrefined fuel to save time and cost, decreasing per carried ton overhead).

Another driver for high priority fees going down is the 4 day standard loading time. Since there will likely be some extra tonnage open up until the last minute, even a 1 day contract could find available shipping space at the standard price.

Or if you like, make it standard that it costs 1000 Cr per ton per earlier day, or put another way the cargo standard is actually 5000 Cr with 1000 Cr taken off per day's contractual lead time (this might actually have rules support in terms of the 'mail contract' fees which would all be about last minute parcels).

 

[kilemall]

Then the missing factor would be the time velocity value.

A lot of reasons that people would want faster delivery- less pilferage/spoilage, less warehousing costs, less risk of something going wrong the less time it's in space, just in time delivery or processing, hot time critical contract, and faster payment/improved cash flow (less tonnage that is unprofitably in transit instead of being in customer hands and money back on the way).

So, simple mechanic to handle that- increase the tonnage available at the standard 1000 Cr per parsec rates. More what the Imperium would encourage, cheaper and faster.

For each roll on the major, minor and incidental cargo rolls, multiply by the average Jn³ of the trip.

Say the major cargo roll yielded 5 lots, and the contracting ship will be going at Jump-3 6 parsecs away for 2 jumps. J3³ x 5 = 135 10 ton lots to roll for, say it averages out to a roll of 3 x 10 per lot, that's 30 x 135 for a total available contractural tonnage of 4050 tons. I would probably just roll 5 times and say there were 27 lots of X result each to save time.

4050 tons x 6000Cr for a 6 parsec trip = 2.43 Mcr, not a small sum- but of course those big ship payments will be that much more- probably more a realm of play one would want to pay cash for new hulls.

Do the same for passenger traffic, and watch those big liners fill up.



So right away you'll note the larger the jump, the larger the ship that the traffic can support.

The pop and starport traffic is built in, so larger faster ships jumping between big pop starports is natural- traffic flow practically writes itself, at least at the level that players care about.

Sorry if this impinges on your image of FedEx fast delivery rates, but this seems to me to be the regimen the environment demands.

Captain Jamison could be asking a rate of 1.5 for charter as opposed to .9, and be very worried if he gets it because it's a sure sign of trouble.

 

[rancke]

Then help me come up with something that *does* more properly emulate the trade system.

Glad to, if I can. What exactly are you trying to figure out? What's the purpose? Why do you want to emulate long distance traffic?

Not exactly, because that would be too cumbersome, but something that allows for useful trade flows that are more believable.

What's wrong with the system in GT: Far Trader? It has some flaws, but it provides cargo and passenger numbers that are not provably wrong (I will put it no higher than that ).


Hans

 

[JBRocky]

Well I work in the Transportation industry trucking to be exact, and while distance determines price so does time. Aviation is by far the most expensive but if it is a critical part that is holding back production its worth it.

Now the difference is Traveller is a jump takes a week no matter what so you have to look into is high jump freight worth it. Now I have a few other gamer friends who are also in the Transportation field and while I know we could sit down for a week or two and really hash this out with practical knowledge, but that is to much like work and we just want to play and have fun.

 

[aramis]

Glad to, if I can. What exactly are to trying to figure out? What's the purpose? Why do you want to emulate long distance traffic?


What's wrong with the system in GT: Far Trader? It has some flaws, but it provides cargo and passenger numbers that are not provably wrong (I will put it no higher than that ).


Hans

its flaws are in the underlying fundamental assumptions. everything else follows on.
Namely, that modern demand mode works as well with 14 day data round trip as with 3 day.... and that majority trade will ramain demand mode. neither of which fit the data from the 19th C.

 

[rancke]

its flaws are in the underlying fundamental assumptions. everything else follows on.

Its biggest flaw is that it tends to break down at the boundaries, especially the lower bounds.

The underlying fundamental assumptions may be flawed, but you have yet to demonstrate that this is the case and that it makes any practical difference. If it's stupid but it works then it's not stupid. And it works fairly well.

Namely, that modern demand mode works as well with 14 day data round trip as with 3 day.... and that majority trade will remain demand mode. neither of which fit the data from the 19th C.

And neither of which you have yet shown makes any practical difference. I'm not even sure that it's actually the case, unless Jim McLean has specifically stated that those are the assumptions he used (which he may well have done).

He does use the gravity model, true. But you seem to assume, without any evidence, that the gravity model only works with 3 day data round trips and not with 14 day data round trips. Or even without any data round trips at all.

"The further away a trade partner is, the less the trade volume is" seems to me to be a perfectly plausible model.


Hans

 

[Travellerspud]

there are two types of shipping (in my experience, which deals with ocean containers, truck and air freight); the cheapest and the quickest.

normally, our freight needs are pre-planned months in advance (ocean containers, 2-4 weeks duration, $2-3k per 20 pallets). But when there is a change (or screw-up), we air-freight (1-2 days duration, $2-3k per pallet!)

we try real hard not to screw-up, but it happens (and when it does, we gladly pay the premium to fix it)....especially during new product introduction

 

[rancke]

there are two types of shipping (in my experience, which deals with ocean containers, truck and air freight); the cheapest and the quickest.

There is no euqivalent to air travel in Traveller interstellar traffic. It's faster ships and slower ships. However, there's an unusual feature that makes Traveller transportation unique. J2 and J3 is faster AND cheaper (per unit per distance) than J1 (And J4 is not so much more expensive that it isn't competitive; indeed, depending on astrography it can actually be the cheapest solution).


Hans

 

[JBRocky]

There is no euqivalent to air travel in Traveller interstellar traffic. It's faster ships and slower ships. However, there's an unusual feature that makes Traveller transportation unique. J2 and J3 is faster AND cheaper (per unit per distance) than J1 (And J4 is not so much more expensive that it isn't competitive; indeed, depending on astrography it can actually be the cheapest solution).


Hans

I have to agree with you to some extant. While there is no way to get freight to an interstellar destination in less than a week but there is J4 vs J1 and while not really airfreight it kind of fills a similar role.

No w when it come to the idea of faster ships and slower ships I do agree with you and it one of the reasons I love to play in the Solomani Rim around Terra where J2 will get you around but J3 or even J4 makes a huge difference.

 

[salochin999]

...

The general result of these threads is that given the current trade rules, it isn't practical to run a trading ship at greater than jump-1 over a long period of time.

...

It's been a while but I think that only applies to independent freighters where the operator borrowed the full cost of the ship (and thus has very high bank repayments each month).

If a megacorps put down 1/2 the price of a ship as a downpayment then they would have much lower monthly repayments.

A really big megacorp might even have their own shipyard.

(This is one possible explanation for a system with an A star port and a population in the thousands - private shipyard).

.

Say a megacorp has a contract to supply 100 gravs a month to another system J3 away with a J1 route available and say each grav needs 10 dtons including packaging that's 1 x 1000 dtons a month via the J3 route or 3 x 1000 dtons via the J1 route

so 1 mill vs 3 mill CR.

The J3 option is clearly cheaper for the megacorps but if J3 isn't economically viable for an independent freighter even if fully loaded then it still won't happen unless the megacorp uses its own ship.

So the question isn't always just independent freighter vs independent freighter; in some cases the options might be freighter vs megacorp's own ships.

.

So the key point is bank payments. It's only uneconomic cos of the bank repayments and those are based on some random dude - like a player - wanting to borrow the full price of a ship from a bank at the repayments in the rules

but if someone - like a megacorps or a very rich free trader player - with enough money to put down a large downpayment then they will have lower monthly repayments

(although it's been a while since I did the sums for this so may have missed something.)