What you want to do then is ROI, and also how much the investor wants to reinvest into new ships and how much money they want to bank from profits.
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Trade and Commerce
- Thread starter ovka
- Start date
What you want to do then is ROI, and also how much the investor wants to reinvest into new ships and how much money they want to bank from profits.
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
I cant comment on other rules sets, but the standard starship loan in MgT is 220% of the ships base price (ie 120% interest).
assuming a company could afford it, paying upfront without taking a loan would be a significant saving in the long run. this might be part of the advantage that megacorps have, as they can pay outright for their ships hulls, which would render a lot of routes to "marginal" for a tramp to operate profitable.
just to show an example: the stock 1,000 Dton "Heavy" freighter costs 271 Mcr. Loan repayments at the standard rate would be ~1,130,000Cr a month.
maintenance and life support costs are 34,000Cr/month. that's something like 30 times less.
doing some very quick and dirty maths. this ship has a cargo bay of 550 tons. If the ship hauled an average of 400 tons every 2 weeks, or 200,000 CR a week, it would take.... about 25 years to make back its purchase price, not counting maintenance and crew costs
Assuming a useful lifespan of ~50 years (if they are giving loans out with a 40 year span, they must reasonable expect that the ship will be making money for at least that long), it would show a rough ROI of 100%, I.e. you double your money. and this is all at J1.
with a loan to pay off, you'd need to be running at full load, every jump, and every jump is J2 (so 1,200 cr per ton), gives us ~1.3Mcr a month, or just about enough to pay the bills.
all the above assumes a 2 jump/month schedule. if you could step up to 2.5 or 3 jumps a month the profit margins rise, obviously.
assuming a company could afford it, paying upfront without taking a loan would be a significant saving in the long run. this might be part of the advantage that megacorps have, as they can pay outright for their ships hulls, which would render a lot of routes to "marginal" for a tramp to operate profitable.
just to show an example: the stock 1,000 Dton "Heavy" freighter costs 271 Mcr. Loan repayments at the standard rate would be ~1,130,000Cr a month.
maintenance and life support costs are 34,000Cr/month. that's something like 30 times less.
doing some very quick and dirty maths. this ship has a cargo bay of 550 tons. If the ship hauled an average of 400 tons every 2 weeks, or 200,000 CR a week, it would take.... about 25 years to make back its purchase price, not counting maintenance and crew costs
Assuming a useful lifespan of ~50 years (if they are giving loans out with a 40 year span, they must reasonable expect that the ship will be making money for at least that long), it would show a rough ROI of 100%, I.e. you double your money. and this is all at J1.
with a loan to pay off, you'd need to be running at full load, every jump, and every jump is J2 (so 1,200 cr per ton), gives us ~1.3Mcr a month, or just about enough to pay the bills.
all the above assumes a 2 jump/month schedule. if you could step up to 2.5 or 3 jumps a month the profit margins rise, obviously.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Megacorporations are likely to have close to vertical integration, probably financing and building their own ships in their own yards.
salochin999
SOC-13
@killemall
Well it's more for the OP. If he wants to run a free trader to shipping magnate campaign then it works - he just needs his free trader guy to make enough money to put down a large down payment when he comes to buy one of the more expensive ships so the bank repayments are lower (and eventually make enough money to start his own shipyard).
The J3 megacorp shipping that is part of canon works fine imo if a) it's a manufacturing megacorporation using its own ships to make regular shipments on a non speculative basis i.e. 100 gravs a month or b) if it's a megacorps shipping firm which buys ships without loans or has its own shipyard.
.
@Xerxeskingofking
Yes.
Although they'd still need to fill the hold to make a profit - an expensive J3 ship with 1000 dtons cargo operating on a route where on average they are only carrying 100 dtons might have a hard time making money.
This is why I think the corporate side would concentrate on the regular trade i.e. fixed contracts for 10,000 dtons of x to Glisten every month or 3000 dtons of y from Glisten every month.
.
@Condottiere
That's my take on it also.
###
I think the big thing here is the difference between regular shipping and speculative shipping in a world where information takes months.
If Strouden has a demand for 80-120 gravs a month from Mora (for whatever reason) then with instantaneous communications the amount being shipped could be constantly adjusted but without instant communication it can't so how many would they ship to minimize risk? If they shipped 100 they'd probably break even but 90 a month might be safer or even 80.
So it seems to me the corporations would take the *safe* trade i.e. the trade where they knew in advance they had a buyer but that would still leave a lot of room for speculative traders as the safe trade would only be say 70% of the total cos slow information.
So imtu
1) megacorps dominate the regular long distance trade between alpha systems (with some speculative traders filling the gaps)
2) minicorps dominate the regular short distance trade between each alpha and its hinterland (with some speculative traders filling the gaps)
3) small traders work the boondocks
and a player could theoretically work their way up from 3 to 1.
What you want to do then is ROI, and also how much the investor wants to reinvest into new ships and how much money they want to bank from profits.
Well it's more for the OP. If he wants to run a free trader to shipping magnate campaign then it works - he just needs his free trader guy to make enough money to put down a large down payment when he comes to buy one of the more expensive ships so the bank repayments are lower (and eventually make enough money to start his own shipyard).
The J3 megacorp shipping that is part of canon works fine imo if a) it's a manufacturing megacorporation using its own ships to make regular shipments on a non speculative basis i.e. 100 gravs a month or b) if it's a megacorps shipping firm which buys ships without loans or has its own shipyard.
.
@Xerxeskingofking
assuming a company could afford it, paying upfront without taking a loan would be a significant saving in the long run. this might be part of the advantage that megacorps have, as they can pay outright for their ships hulls, which would render a lot of routes to "marginal" for a tramp to operate profitable.
Yes.
Although they'd still need to fill the hold to make a profit - an expensive J3 ship with 1000 dtons cargo operating on a route where on average they are only carrying 100 dtons might have a hard time making money.
This is why I think the corporate side would concentrate on the regular trade i.e. fixed contracts for 10,000 dtons of x to Glisten every month or 3000 dtons of y from Glisten every month.
.
@Condottiere
Megacorporations are likely to have close to vertical integration, probably financing and building their own ships in their own yards.
That's my take on it also.
###
I think the big thing here is the difference between regular shipping and speculative shipping in a world where information takes months.
If Strouden has a demand for 80-120 gravs a month from Mora (for whatever reason) then with instantaneous communications the amount being shipped could be constantly adjusted but without instant communication it can't so how many would they ship to minimize risk? If they shipped 100 they'd probably break even but 90 a month might be safer or even 80.
So it seems to me the corporations would take the *safe* trade i.e. the trade where they knew in advance they had a buyer but that would still leave a lot of room for speculative traders as the safe trade would only be say 70% of the total cos slow information.
So imtu
1) megacorps dominate the regular long distance trade between alpha systems (with some speculative traders filling the gaps)
2) minicorps dominate the regular short distance trade between each alpha and its hinterland (with some speculative traders filling the gaps)
3) small traders work the boondocks
and a player could theoretically work their way up from 3 to 1.
Last edited:
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
There should be space for smaller corporations who are able to react more quickly to market needs and changes, pretty much the difference between Microsoft and Google and Facebook at the beginning of the noughties and teens.
salochin999
SOC-13
Yeah, as supply and demand can't be accurately balanced due to slow information then there'd be a profit vs risk calculation.
As in the example of a system having a demand for 80 to 120 grav's per month. The safe part of that trade with a guaranteed profit is 80 (maybe more
using probability). The risk part is the 0 to 40 part.
If you assume corporations can always take the "safe" part of the trade i.e. the regular, contracted shipments with a guaranteed profit that leaves plenty of room for people prepared to accept the higher risk.
As in the example of a system having a demand for 80 to 120 grav's per month. The safe part of that trade with a guaranteed profit is 80 (maybe more
using probability). The risk part is the 0 to 40 part.
If you assume corporations can always take the "safe" part of the trade i.e. the regular, contracted shipments with a guaranteed profit that leaves plenty of room for people prepared to accept the higher risk.
As a person who works in the Transportation and Logistics industry let me toss out some ideas.
First they are going to get their ships at a discount of some type. Maybe this means they have a deal with the ship yard or the Bank for a good deal for volume of business. Now if they own the Ship Yard they might not give themselves a discount, just so they can write if off on Taxes. I have worked for a business who does this, lots of money changing hands but it all goes into the same pocket. Megacorps would be good at this.
Ok next and where I see the money maker is what present day cruise lines do. The ship enters port on Saturday gets all the passengers off and resupplies so it can go back out Sunday. Now while this might not fit directly with the rules commerce of this scale is beyond the scope of normal PC's. This is why I like the lighters in the back of the GURPS Far Trader. It allows the rapid transfer of cargo between ships which allows more jumps per month. Since if a ship is idle its not making money and if you are good and fast you can get 3-4 jumps a month.
First they are going to get their ships at a discount of some type. Maybe this means they have a deal with the ship yard or the Bank for a good deal for volume of business. Now if they own the Ship Yard they might not give themselves a discount, just so they can write if off on Taxes. I have worked for a business who does this, lots of money changing hands but it all goes into the same pocket. Megacorps would be good at this.
Ok next and where I see the money maker is what present day cruise lines do. The ship enters port on Saturday gets all the passengers off and resupplies so it can go back out Sunday. Now while this might not fit directly with the rules commerce of this scale is beyond the scope of normal PC's. This is why I like the lighters in the back of the GURPS Far Trader. It allows the rapid transfer of cargo between ships which allows more jumps per month. Since if a ship is idle its not making money and if you are good and fast you can get 3-4 jumps a month.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Rapid turnaround is the name of the game for airlines and container ships.
My believe is that for their primary routes, megacorporations have their own terminals and fuel processing plants, which cuts time and local costs.
My believe is that for their primary routes, megacorporations have their own terminals and fuel processing plants, which cuts time and local costs.
Rapid turnaround is the name of the game for airlines and container ships.
My believe is that for their primary routes, megacorporations have their own terminals and fuel processing plants, which cuts time and local costs.
Oh they have alot of stuff like that. I can probably go into pretty good depth but since its also tecnicly work I tend not to.
salochin999
SOC-13
This would be another distinction between people shipping stuff they know they're getting paid for and speculative traders.
The former don't need to spend time looking for a buyer.
The latter are more like traders showing up at a market and hiring a stall.
The former don't need to spend time looking for a buyer.
The latter are more like traders showing up at a market and hiring a stall.
This would be another distinction between people shipping stuff they know they're getting paid for and speculative traders.
The former don't need to spend time looking for a buyer.
The latter are more like traders showing up at a market and hiring a stall.
Or more to the point how MegaCorps would most likely do business vs what is fun in a RPG.
salochin999
SOC-13
Or more to the point how MegaCorps would most likely do business vs what is fun in a RPG.
I guess.
For me the point is the OP wanted a Free trader to Oberlindes line game and thought there was a problem with that based on the earlier threads which were based on taking out full loans.
There's no problem - just need to make enough money on the Free trader to not have to take out a full loan on a bigger ship.
I guess.
For me the point is the OP wanted a Free trader to Oberlindes line game and thought there was a problem with that based on the earlier threads which were based on taking out full loans.
There's no problem - just need to make enough money on the Free trader to not have to take out a full loan on a bigger ship.
That brings up a salient point.
Let's say that 10 years into the loan the characters want or need to get out from under the remaining 30 years left.
They could sell the ship at X % off due to age, but would still be left with a very large debt.
Or go big, sell, say split the proceeds up four ways to provide the down to loan for four ships and service the older debt between the four.
Probably the usual mechanism would be to surrender the ship as collateral and default, with a -2 Soc hit or something like.
Or sublet the ship to another crew to service the debt and they keep profits, or a long term 70% charter deal. I have to think there are a lot of those around, which could be a cheap way for characters to get into the merchant game without incurring the debt McGuffin.
salochin999
SOC-13
@kilemall
Yeah or the original guy died leaving a part-paid second hand ship sitting on a planet somewhere.
Yeah or the original guy died leaving a part-paid second hand ship sitting on a planet somewhere.
@kilemall
Yeah or the original guy died leaving a part-paid second hand ship sitting on a planet somewhere.
Which gets into how does the Imperium treat deceased estate debt, inheritance etc.
I expect planetary assets follow planetary law and interstellar assets follow Imperial law.
So one might 'shop around' for planets with law amenable to one's estate model which might be easier and less expensive then the Imperium, or seek to buffer oneself from such issues by investing and leaving assets of an interstellar nature.
Also provides some potential play where the favorite uncle dies and leaves a character the half-paid ship and the transfer is relatively routine, but his little starport D hovel facility is all manner of troublesome due to the quirks of the local laws and customs.
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