Trade is too expensive.

[whartung]

Seems pretty clear the ships are more chartered under various terms then picking up spot market lots, otherwise they are doing speculative too.

Well, that's sort of what already happens. It just happens to be backwards.

Rather than picking up a lot with a set destination, you pick a destination and see what lots are available. The former wouldn't be super hard. Just roll on the same table for all the "nearby" ports.

Mind this is where "per parsec" pricing would shine. There has to either be a fixed rate (like now, 1000Cr per ton), or a "willing to pay" rate associated with the lot.

This is important because if a generated lot is given an amount willing to pay AND a time to be delivered, a ship could, for example, pick up two lots. One for System A and one for System B, assuming that the the B lot says "must be delivered within 3 weeks" or whatever.

I think this could be a much more dynamic system outside of speculation.

 

[kilemall]

Well, that's sort of what already happens. It just happens to be backwards.

Rather than picking up a lot with a set destination, you pick a destination and see what lots are available. The former wouldn't be super hard. Just roll on the same table for all the "nearby" ports.

Mind this is where "per parsec" pricing would shine. There has to either be a fixed rate (like now, 1000Cr per ton), or a "willing to pay" rate associated with the lot.

This is important because if a generated lot is given an amount willing to pay AND a time to be delivered, a ship could, for example, pick up two lots. One for System A and one for System B, assuming that the the B lot says "must be delivered within 3 weeks" or whatever.

I think this could be a much more dynamic system outside of speculation.

Er, I’m saying we focus too much on the free booting lot system and maybe should treat it as the better then empty last option and instead be rolling for charters.

 

[mike wightman]

Being a merchant means being part of a service career - the character is not a PC Traveller yet.

Once you muster out you are now a Traveller - if you are lucky enough to have reached high enough rank and you roll a 6 you can get a ship. You are now a PC free trader Traveller.

How did the character earn enough during their career to get the down payment for the ship? Is it inherited, is it a reward, was it a prize taken during a trade war etc?

Where are all the second hand, third hand ships that are cheaper than new builds? Where are the war surplus or end of life megacorp vessels being sold off cheap?

 

[aramis]

All of what you say is true, I am only quoting from page 48 of LBB3: The typical methods used in life by 20th century Terrans (thrift, dedication, and hard work) do not work in Traveller; instead, travellers must boldly plan and execute daring schemes for the acquisition of wealth and power.

So one would say that the system is working as it was designed to? That the PC's have to go on adventures or go broke. Though if one merely wanted to mirror reality, most of the wealthy are simply born into it. Which granted, does not make for much of a game. Though if one wants a more realistic economics, I did write up a base system in my setting, except going back to the physics example, there is a frame of reference. I think that there could be a lot of competing systems, even large countries here on Earth are broken up into economic zones, generally formed around urban areas. So say the planets do similar, they are going to expand, and dominate a little space, a few jump numbers away, and that is being super lenient, because I have a feeling looking at gross transportation weights, that almost all interstellar trade in incidental.

Except that, in pure 3LBB, a basic cargo box of 200 Td J1, if on a good route, makes a slim profit.

Td​	MCr​	Item	Cr Per 2 weeks
200​	8.0​	Hull (Standard)	100​	Docking fees
0​	2.0​	Streamlining
10​	10.0​	JD A=1
1​	4.0​	MD A=1
4​	8.0​	PP A=1
20​	1.0​	Bridge
1​	4.0 0.6​	Computer Plus software (Jump 1, Maneuver, Navigate, Target) - will require cassettes to jump
1​	0.3​	Single Turret
0​	0.5​	Pulse Laser
16​	2.0​	4 SR for Crew PEMG	8,000 7,500​	LS Salary
10​	0.0​	PP Fuel (4 weeks)	2,500​	2 weeks
20​	0.0​	1J1 Fuel	10,000​	1 jump
117​	0.0​	117 Td cargo
	40.4​	Base cost. MoPay=Cr168334	84,167​	1/480th of price on std financing (1/240 per mo)
		Annual Maintenance kCr40.4	1,684​	1/24 of Ann. Maint.
		​	113951​	Total/2 weeks
		Profit Cr3049​	117000​	full cargo bay no mail

Breaks even at 98%. May be able to get incidentals and/or mail, adding up to KCr30/jump.

You can make a little more if you add a few staterooms and post "no steward available" (so no HPsg). Costs are Cr5063 per 2 weeks (increased payment 1042, maint 21, 4 tons of cargo) for +Cr937 jump if filled. 4 mid passengers is an almost always filled number in the more inhabited core systems. It's even usually full in the Aramis Trace.
Note that adding a steward costs Cr8063 off the profits, and so unless your route usually generates 4+ HPsg, not worth it.

Risking unrefined fuel is going to save kCr10 per jump... but is it really worth it?

Spoiler:

Only if you can afford the FPP and your GM has allowed it in from HG or TCS.

1/36 chance of drive failure per week means 1-2 failures per year. So, no.

Those are comparable margins to current for both sea and truck for pure freight.

 

[mike wightman]

The free trader is an Amazon delivery van...

 

[Condottiere]

So refreshers are optional?

 

[robject]

"Trade is too expensive" is a VERY common issue that's regularly dredged up.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Breaks even at 98%.

Hence the whole "flirting with bankruptcy every year" risk factor.
Add in vulnerability to piracy (1G, model/1bis computer) and you're really flirting with bankruptcy.

Risking unrefined fuel is going to save kCr10 per jump... but is it really worth it?

Spoiler:

Only if you can afford the FPP and your GM has allowed it in from HG or TCS.

1/36 chance of drive failure per week means 1-2 failures per year. So, no.

Ah, but that Fuel Purification Plant can basically "pay for itself" in fuel cost avoidance in just a few months, after which ... it's all gravy.
The "revenue density" of a TL=9 FPP (9 tons) is even a net profit gain after it has been paid off.

• Cr9000 revenue lost due to 9 ton reduction in cargo capacity
• Cr12,500 fuel cost avoidance due to not needing to buy refined fuel when wilderness refueling
• Net profit: Cr3500 per 2 weeks versus Cr12,500 fuel cost

Even if you have to buy unrefined fuel from a starport, you're still going to be ahead on profit margin.

• Cr9000 revenue lost due to 9 ton reduction in cargo capacity
• Cr2,500 fuel cost for buying 25 tons of unrefined fuel
• Net profit: Cr500 per 2 weeks versus Cr12,500 fuel cost

So having a Fuel Purification Plant is simply "too much winning" on profits to want to avoid getting one, from an economics standpoint ... provided you still have enough cargo capacity left over to be useful to your business model.

 

[Condottiere]

Let's be frank, the economics in Traveller don't make sense, all we can do is game the system.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Let's be frank, the economics in Traveller don't make sense, all we can do is game the system.

They don't make sense, but they work as a mini-game with a limited scope.
Beyond that, "you can't get there from here."

 

[Spinward Flow]

all we can do is game the system.

So ... just like we do with every other game in existence (including the real world one)?

They don't make sense, but they work as a mini-game with a limited scope.
Beyond that, "you can't get there from here."

I prefer to think of it as putting limits on the boundaries of the puzzle box.
How you solve the maze challenge is YOUR problem to deal with.

 

[Dragoner]

Except that, in pure 3LBB, a basic cargo box of 200 Td J1, if on a good route, makes a slim profit.

Td​	MCr​	Item	Cr Per 2 weeks
200​	8.0​	Hull (Standard)	100​	Docking fees
0​	2.0​	Streamlining
10​	10.0​	JD A=1
1​	4.0​	MD A=1
4​	8.0​	PP A=1
20​	1.0​	Bridge
1​	4.0 0.6​	Computer Plus software (Jump 1, Maneuver, Navigate, Target) - will require cassettes to jump
1​	0.3​	Single Turret
0​	0.5​	Pulse Laser
16​	2.0​	4 SR for Crew PEMG	8,000 7,500​	LS Salary
10​	0.0​	PP Fuel (4 weeks)	2,500​	2 weeks
20​	0.0​	1J1 Fuel	10,000​	1 jump
117​	0.0​	117 Td cargo
	40.4​	Base cost. MoPay=Cr168334	84,167​	1/480th of price on std financing (1/240 per mo)
		Annual Maintenance kCr40.4	1,684​	1/24 of Ann. Maint.
		​	113951​	Total/2 weeks
		Profit Cr3049​	117000​	full cargo bay no mail

Breaks even at 98%. May be able to get incidentals and/or mail, adding up to KCr30/jump.

You can make a little more if you add a few staterooms and post "no steward available" (so no HPsg). Costs are Cr5063 per 2 weeks (increased payment 1042, maint 21, 4 tons of cargo) for +Cr937 jump if filled. 4 mid passengers is an almost always filled number in the more inhabited core systems. It's even usually full in the Aramis Trace.
Note that adding a steward costs Cr8063 off the profits, and so unless your route usually generates 4+ HPsg, not worth it.

Risking unrefined fuel is going to save kCr10 per jump... but is it really worth it?

Spoiler:

Only if you can afford the FPP and your GM has allowed it in from HG or TCS.

1/36 chance of drive failure per week means 1-2 failures per year. So, no.

Those are comparable margins to current for both sea and truck for pure freight.

That is cool, thanks for the breakdown. IMTU, I also have the central government help pay for things like maintenance, because these ships are their "merchant stellar" like the merchant marine, and it is good to have extra lifting power outside the navy yards.

 

[mike wightman]

This is why I described the free trader as an Amazon delivery van. The free trader at jump 1 moves freight and passengers from the trade hubs that the megacorp big boys jump between and worlds on jump 1 mains - they may even be making insystem jumps in some cases.

 

[Condottiere]

Delivery drones are probably more efficient.

The way it's structured, because aerospace freight goes to a specific destination, passenger service is available, instead of the other way round.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The way it's structured, because aerospace freight goes to a specific destination, passenger service is available, instead of the other way round.

Aye.
First you decide where you're going, based on the amount of cargo wanting to go to different places within your starship's range ... and then after your destination is announced, passengers start presenting themselves wanting to go to that declared destination.

 

[Dragoner]

This is why I described the free trader as an Amazon delivery van. The free trader at jump 1 moves freight and passengers from the trade hubs that the megacorp big boys jump between and worlds on jump 1 mains - they may even be making insystem jumps in some cases.

Exactly even imtu where due to using real star systems, and it needs to be more looked at as a jump 3 universe, I mean there is a jump 2 main as well; jump 1 is great for in-system work. Plus there are larger carriers, ferries, that lash smaller ships to them, and drop them off. Though I figure that a lot of freight is preplanned years in advance, players are small stuff, like OTC or the spot market. One thing that happens irl is that haulers will ship at a loss to avoid deadheading, or running with no cargo.

 

[Condottiere]

Works great with the big boys, since they can run operations at a loss until they starve out the competition.

But apparently, prices are fixed and regulated.

 

[Sir Brad]

Character Starships are the modern equivalent of a Cargo Plane used to service remote areas like Alaska, Northern Canada, the Australian Outback off the Quntas Link routs, the outer islands of the Pacific nations or most of Africa.

or the Flying Boats and Clippers of the Inter war years, heck it could also be seen as the Tramp Freighters that plied the sea lanes from the late 19th century till the mid 20th, lots of them where titled to the Capitan but he oftern had heavy bank loans on them or Investors expecting Dividends on a regular basis.

there is Money to be made if you are willing to put in the hard work and accept the risk

 

[Condottiere]

The Douglas Skytrain.

Or Dougray Astrotrain.