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Trading information (Making Merchant runs profitable)

Shadowfax

SOC-12
I put this post in our pirate discussion, but since we were only covering the aspects of this system as they relate to piracy there, I decided that another posting here under a different title might be more appropriate:

One idea I had is that systems with a high enough techlevel probably maintain some kind of an information network like the world wide web. Each system that has the population, the technology and the money to invest would probably build itself a network node with computer centers and data storage nodes (ISPs).

Since faster than light travel is the fastest means of communication, all those people on all those systems out there are going to be hungry to know what is happening around them, in their sub sector and in the core.

Now the Xboat system covers most of the day-to-day informational needs of the various imperial systems, but Merchant vessels can also supplement that information and indeed often do it more timely that the Xboats can simply because the Xboats make regular runs and nothing gets disseminated in between runs. A merchant ship jumping into a couple of hours later from another system would have the opportunity to transfer more current information and news than what had recently come in on the Xboat.

What I propose is that all merchant ships carry a "burst emitter array" and a "receiver". Every ship jumping into the System from somewhere else will be queried by the system's computer network node. There will be a series of "internet protocols" (if you will) that compares the actuality (topicality/"currentness") of the information and news in the ship's Data-base to the current information in the System's Database Node.

New or more current information from the incoming ship will be tagged and all the data will be sorted into categories like "commercial class-A", "commercial class-B", "public knowledge", "warnings and advisories" etc. The ship's computer and the Node computer will exchange information so that the ship's DB is brought up to date with the information about the system that they jumped into (weather reports, tourist information, news, warnings and advisories, want ads, advertisements, etc, etc. ) and the system's database node will be brought up to date with the most current information about the systems that the ship has recently visited.

The best part is that each ship and system will have bought certain information rights and while some information will be traded freely other information can be bought and sold at pre-arranged prices based on classification. Since the system has a larger population and therefore more informational need, the merchant stands to make a small profit on the information that he sells and the advertising that he agrees to transmit.

This brings a new element into the game that may make some of your merchant runs more profitable, ans even sustainable because ships can buy and sell information and advertising when they jump in to the jump point.

There are just sensor buoys floating out there in any system with a decent tech level and an imperial network node. The buoys are connected to the System's network node. When the ship jumps in it is hailed by the buoy and transmits a burst signal with all its information to the buoy.

The information is classified, compared and sorted. Newer information that is of public record is transferred immediately. Other information is sorted in to commercial classification codes and is automatically bought and sold between the ship and the System's information network. The Merchant's account is credited with so many credits for the selling of interesting new information and getting paid for carrying advertising to the next system Node.

Certain trading information can be highly prized by Corporations, Governments or Organizations operating in the system. In some cases they may be willing to pay top credit for the information that the merchant has. Class-A commercial information would be the most highly valued information and could contain current stock prices or going rates for goods and services from neighboring systems.

The ship's bursar and owner pre-arrange and set what parameters are to be used for buying information with a computer program, so that there is no chance of a ship going in the "red" because of a information sales deficit. The profit is not much, but it is often enough to cover docking fees and tariffs on goods and maybe even cover some of the costs of fuel.

The ship's crew would certainly not be able to look at all of the information individually, but computer evaluation programs could be written to disseminate the information. The bursar would see abstracted reports about what information a particular system bought on a regular basis and could change his bid for offering the information manually if he so desired. In most cases the ship's computer would handle all the buying and selling of information and would ensure that no deficit is incurred.
 
My quick thoughts...

The first line of information exchange as you note is the X-Boat network and the primary worlds (those on the X-Boat route). But I get the feeling you think it's not scheduled very often. I figure it's daily or more often that an X-Boat leaves for the next system on it's run. Some systems will see several X-Boats arriving and leaving daily.

The next line of information exchange is handled by Scout/Couriers who fan out from the X-Boat route between secondary worlds (those not on the X-Boat route but deemed worthy and within J2, which beats your standard J1 traders). These are less scheduled and often handled by the Detached Duty office imtu. Mail may wait days, weeks, or longer depending.

The last line of information exchange is handled by the Mail Contract that some subsidized routes maintain (though that is in canon actual physical mail*). This is as an adjunct to the regular IISS services of the X-Boat and Scout/Couriers, as well as insuring service to some tertiary worlds that would only rarely see official traffic.

That doesn't leave a lot of systems for Free-Traders to make money on information services. And it's probably worlds they'll avoid as well for the simple fact that they aren't great trading opportunities.

I think information of this nature might be best handled as speculative cargo. A lot of those tertiary worlds might care less what The Imperium is doing as it doesn't affect them in the slightest. Others might be interested and willing to pay though. And there's always a chance that some information is not going through the regular channels on the well covered routes, which could be very valuable (and possibly illegal ;) ).

I think I may have to steal that idea and add it to my TU :)

I wonder what Trade Code DMs should/might apply? What base value? What dtons* and/or computer block* sizes does it come in?

* imtu the X-Boat and Scout/Courier information packets are in computer block requirements, the subsidized merchant mail contracts are in dtons (5dtons reserved per the book) which I think is partly a secure computer (a mdl/2 at 2dtons) for just information packets and a locker (3dtons, same as the Scout/Courier cargo hold) for physical mail and other packages.
 
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My quick thoughts...

The first line of information exchange as you note is the X-Boat network and the primary worlds (those on the X-Boat route). But I get the feeling you think it's not scheduled very often. I figure it's daily or more often that an X-Boat leaves for the next system on it's run. Some systems will see several X-Boats arriving and leaving daily.

---------------Is it specified? Even if it is more often then daily there may be great profit in getting fresh information that came in a few hours even minutes later than the Xboat. Several Xboats a day can't cover the need. Don't believe me, talk to a Trader on the Boerse or Stock exchange. Investment rates can climb and fall. High tech super fast information nodes in-system can disseminate and post this information in seconds IMTU. So every Merchant trades in information even if they are going to a well travelled world. Also keep in mind they may have visited somewhere where no one has been in a long while - there are opportunities there - even if they were in backwater systems. Consider if a new mine was opened or a war broke out. There is so much information. The population of the planet will also have a huge demand for information. Everyone will have there standing queries, offers, bids requests and tons and tons of parameters to sort, classify, disseminate and condense the info that they want and think that they need.

The next line of information exchange is handled by Scout/Couriers who fan out from the X-Boat route between secondary worlds (those not on the X-Boat route but deemed worthy and within J2, which beats your standard J1 traders). These are less scheduled and often handled by the Detached Duty office imtu. Mail may wait days, weeks, or longer depending.

-----------------------I always figured that the Xboats and Scouts would be carrying information of a more governmental nature. Still, even with all the scout couriers out there I can still imagine people using any ship's database as an information store to refresh their information. The tact of ships coming and going will determine how well informed the people on the world are. Population will create demand and so will industry and commerce. I think they would try to get news and information from whereever they could not just the XBoats.

The last line of information exchange is handled by the Mail Contract that some subsidized routes maintain (though that is in canon actual physical mail*).
----------------There are still arguments that support some degree of actual physical mail. The Subsidized merchants could handle this FED-ex style service and in addition trade information. In fact, nearly every ship would have an account to trade information. Sure every now and then someone would beat you to the jump and you wouldn't make any profit, but the bursars/stewards programs that you are running would keep you from taking a loss, unless you wanted to take a small loss in exchange for some information of particular interest to the crew. You follow me on this?

This is as an adjunct to the regular IISS services of the X-Boat and Scout/Couriers, as well as insuring service to some tertiary worlds that would only rarely see official traffic.
---------------On those worlds there would also be a demand for information even if it was only the latest Downloads of "Debbie does Daneb" for the miners of some Outland-like backwater.

That doesn't leave a lot of systems for Free-Traders to make money on information services. And it's probably worlds they'll avoid as well for the simple fact that they aren't great trading opportunities.
----------------I disagree. I do not think that the ISS and the Xboats would be able to cover the huge demand for current information in even the big systems. Think of demand for fresh information that these trunk-worlds would have. Think of the demand in volume that a high population world would have. I doubt that the Xboats can cover that demand. No, people want as many fresh updates as they can get. A system like this would enable it.

------------- The computer network node, its protocols and the data bases (spheres) would handle all of the emitting, receiving, data-processing and payment transactions in a matter of seconds. New information would be posted on the system's network in minutes. All the processing would be on the back-end, that means, nobody would actually see this data or the processing of it on the ship's computer or the network node. I mean sure you could look at it, but no one would want to. No one could look at it and make any sense of it until it was posted on the net. Everything would be handled automatically by the protocols - even the buying and selling (Of course, here you could set your parameters to glean what you wanted.). Your trading program would handle your highest information priorities first (That rare model of jump coil that you are looking for, Zhodani wine, or just class C cargo trade data for the next destination Regina in 3 weeks time after your layover. ), then come the secondary and tertiary priorities. Some would have been set by the captain and crew manually through the ship's steward. Other priorities would be set by the ships trade program which would be trying to negotiate the best deal with the best buyer on the network node (They make their postings and have their programs too.) If the ship miraculously found no market for its data, then the trade program wouldn't buy any information and no debt would be incurred. If then the captain needed to find out about that jump coil he could manually override the trade program, ordering it to buy the information about the seller of the jump coil and pay the price in credits. Nothing would be left to chance and you couldn't go in the hole, because the trade program would never let you buy more than you sell.

I think information of this nature might be best handled as speculative cargo. A lot of those tertiary worlds might care less what The Imperium is doing as it doesn't affect them in the slightest.
-----------------Sure, but they care about their neighbors that they trade with. The merchant had to jump to them as well on its way in.

Others might be interested and willing to pay though. And there's always a chance that some information is not going through the regular channels on the well covered routes, which could be very valuable (and possibly illegal ;) ).

-----------------Yes. Even the demand for legal stock and trading information would be huge and it has to be as fresh as the investors can get it. I do not see the government or the military using this system. They would have their own way of transmitting information it would involve a completely different technology and it would be encoded, encrypted and locked down to beat all hell. In fact, a lot of this kind of mail might be physical mail and it would definitely be handled by the scouts and the naval couriers. I am sure that organized crime, terrorists and pirates would use the information network to transmit info as well. There would also be an army of people and computers trying to keep tabs on them pick out their messages, decode and interpret them etc.

I think I may have to steal that idea and add it to my TU :)

------------------That makes me feel good. I am gald you like my idea. Now, if I could only have made money with this idea. ; - )

I wonder what Trade Code DMs should/might apply? What base value? What dtons* and/or computer block* sizes does it come in?

------------------I can't say much about that, because I gave up using the trade tables in Merchant prince. I do that stuff arbitrarily, so I don't even remember how that system works. I would abstract it, because you are dealing with tons of variables based on the system, its population, its location, its demand and who just might have jumped in 1 milli-second before the merchant with the same data. I would try to abstract this because there is no point in trying to keep track of it all. I would make as simple system with a very wide range of very random results and very few modifiers.

* imtu the X-Boat and Scout/Courier information packets are in computer block requirements,
-----------------Huh? Sorry I don't follow you. What do you mean by "computer block requirements"?

the subsidized merchant mail contracts are in dtons (5dtons reserved per the book) which I think is partly a secure computer (a mdl/2 at 2dtons) for just information packets and a locker (3dtons, same as the Scout/Courier cargo hold) for physical mail and other packages.
--------------------------Are you talking about the mainframe size computer tonnage requirements here or what, sorry I don't get it. I can understand the physical post, but as far as the information stored in the ship's databases goes, well we are talking about GPBs google-pex-bytes (I need a better name perhaps, but 1GPB much bigger than a terabyte!). I figure the computers use protocols to sort out the differences in technology just like the banks today have retroactive SWIFT Messaging to ISO various older standards for smaller banks that can't quite afford to keep pace and implement the new ISO standard right away. The information comes pre-sorted in to trade classifications that are imperial standard (set up by the INC = Imperial Normalization Commission) protocols sort out all the information, based on demand and price bids and assign ID-Tags of course it is checked for validity and its date/time stamp is compared to information in the System-node with the same ID-tag. All of this goes on in the computer behind the curtain so to speak. The end user only gets his reports and sees that he got the info he was looking for and made X credits. The profit from selling your information and carrying advertising could on rare occasion could be big, but usually it will just help to cover the costs of fuel and fees.
 
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Just the simplified Book 2 computer program slots. Model/1 with 2/4 Capacity and so on. So the Model/1 can hold 6 information packets if not doing anything else. I don't bother with figuring out how much actual info it is since that is too variable depending on the type of data, the form it's in, the encryption it underwent, the redundancy against data loss, and so on. It's a lot of data though. I mean a mind-boggling lot even for one info packet. Only the high pop main worlds generate enough to come close to taxing the X-Boat data banks, and the Scout/Couriers manage most of the time since they're off the mains.

Yes up to the minute data is vital, when you can get it in a second at the speed of light (i.e. on the same world). A little less so when it's hours old (i.e. another world in the same system). Much less vital when the soonest you can get it makes it a week old and acting on it at least two weeks old :)

Daily reports and updates is more than enough even for very busily trading worlds separated by a jump. More than a few jumps and any hot trade data is useless imo. The less volatile data and trends can take it's time and serve just as well.
 
I figure it's daily or more often that an X-Boat leaves for the next system on it's run.


Dan,

Just a quibble here. We ran the numbers on the "Multiple Daily X-boat Departures" once and it doesn't make economic sense. Given jump drive's temporal accuracy, you can easily have boats that departed later arriving sooner which means that the journey of the boat, or boats, dispatched before it were "wasted".

Seeing as temporal accuracy is distributed on a bell curve or sorts, one boat per 24 hours per destination seems like a good compromise between message speed and "wasted" equipment.

Some systems will see several X-Boats arriving and leaving daily.

Yes, as long as different systems are involved. Regina would have 2 arrivals and 2 departures during any given 24 period while Jewell would have 5 arrivals and 5 departures.

The last line of information exchange is handled by the Mail Contract that some subsidized routes maintain...

Although canon is rather vague on the subject, I think mail contracts are one of the driving forces behind subsidized routes. The planets, counties, or duchies subsidizing those routes must do so for more than just the passenger and freight moving along them.

The rules, and text they are derived from, only touch briefly on mail contracts because such contracts tie the players to a certain schedule and region. Even the famous March Harrier of TTA "lacks" a mail contract, having one would prevent the players from flying off during their "free time" or even having that free time in the first place.

I also don't think the governments, agencies, or corporations involved would be eager to hand over a dTon of physical and/or electronic "mail" to Cap'n Blackie and the crew of the Running Boil, so players with mail contracts should be rare to the point of vanishing.


Regards,
Bill
 
Yes up to the minute data is vital, when you can get it in a second at the speed of light (i.e. on the same world). A little less so when it's hours old (i.e. another world in the same system). Much less vital when the soonest you can get it makes it a week old and acting on it at least two weeks old

------------------------Some information is valuable even when it is old. You also have to remember that the population of the planets in the System are still dependent on information getting to them at all. In some cases it may be too late to act on certain information that is true. In other cases the information will still be of value. Some things don't change that fast and you just have to know that a particular even has happened:

i.e. L-Hyd Tanks are now being produced regularly and in great numbers at the General Shipyards on Regina and all anyone has to do is put in an order and then pick them up. Will be worth more than the sharp short term rise in porkbellies 48 systems away.

The news of the L-Hyd production on Regina will spark a wave of orders and open a new market that wasn't there before. Plus there will be repeat business. Also, some new routes will open because of the tanks and maybe a new mine will be built in some backwater system because the people there will finally be able to transport the raw materials. Whereas the porkbelly price rise is useless minutes after it is divulged.

Daily reports and updates is more than enough even for very busily trading worlds separated by a jump. More than a few jumps and any hot trade data is useless imo. The less volatile data and trends can take it's time and serve just as well.
--------------------Yeah, this is true. I guess we are saying the same thing.
 
>>>>>Just a quibble here. We ran the numbers on the "Multiple Daily X-boat Departures" once and it doesn't make economic sense. Given jump drive's temporal accuracy, you can easily have boats that departed later arriving sooner which means that the journey of the boat, or boats, dispatched before it were "wasted".<<<<<

>>>>>>Seeing as temporal accuracy is distributed on a bell curve or sorts, one boat per 24 hours per destination seems like a good compromise between message speed and "wasted" equipment. <<<<<<

---------------------Right, so the beauty of the system is that the network node scanning the information automatically sorts out the old information from the databanks of whatever ship has just jumped in system. The network node doesn't even spend the time to download anything it doesn't need.

Since every ship is equipped with this equipment as part of its standard communication array (its not that expensive). Thus every ship jumping in system is gleaned for "hits". Hits are data that have not yet been harvested from X-boats or other vessels that have jumped in system prior to the current vessel.

If you consider the data storage capacity of computers today and extrapolate that to tech 15 (or even just tech 12), you'll see that every incoming ship can transmit tons of data and the best part is that those ships are jumping to the system to trade anyway.

The more ships jumping into the system the faster the data in the Node is actualized. Look how fast sorting routines work on computers today. Look at how the world wide web works and expeand it exponentially due to the increased level of technology! These Nodes and databases and arrays can handle vast amounts of information in milliseconds. The key to it are the information sorting and retrieving protocols which run lightning fast in the background automatically as soon as the ship enters the jump-point.

There is some hardware involved and most of your larger systems will want to have some redundancy in place. This of course gives us another set of jobs and occupations for all those electonics and computer hacks out there.

Maybe the network node is maintained by the starport authority, maybe by the system government, maybe by the Imperium itself. I haven't committed myself to any of those yet.

My best guess is that is an interstellar organization with Imperial backing (just like the military's ARPANET was the basis for the www) and that each of the systems has a "presence". The infrastructure itself (the hardware) could be paid for and maintained by the scout service, or the system government or the starport authority or private companies or and combination thereof.

The system would certainly pay for itself. That would be true for the owners and custodians of the infrastructure as well as the ships carrying the information.


As far as the X-Boats go, I see the Imperium and other governments maintaining them as part of their communication network. I don't see them transferring commerical data - I mean sure maybe if they were paid a fee to do it they would, but this would be low priority non-time sensitive stuff.

My guess is that the Xboats are mostly carrying encoded and scrambled information and that they are only transfering middle and low level military and government information that is not meant for the public.

I would be next to impossible to crack these codes even if you did intercept an X-boat. Any top secret military information would probably be taken care of in person by J-6 courier anyway.
 
Shadowfax: you can't extrapolate the data densites too much higher; physics precludes it.

1TB/CC is looking to be close to limit.
 
Shadowfax: you can't extrapolate the data densites too much higher; physics precludes it.

1TB/CC is looking to be close to limit.

----------------Yeah, our physics, but not tech 15 physics . . . or am I missing your point? Btw. is cc supposed to be cubic centimeter?! Ok, you are having me on right?
 
You know - this thread sparked a thought of mine, and I can't help but wonder...

Just how economicially viable is the X-Boat system? In other words, does the carried data/goods carried on the x-boats pay for the cost of operations, cost of maintenance, and cost of replacement ships/parts during the operational period in question?

It might be interesting to run an analysis on just what an Xboat system has to charge in order to remain solvent without government subsidies. Lest people think "How difficult can it be to run a government subsidy - the statement I will respond with is "How often can you use the government run subsidy concept before the cost of all those government subsidies begin to run the government into bankruptcy?"

Just a thought to be sure ;)
 
No, in all seriousness, data densities are approaching the point where the physics as known preclude increasing the density too terribly much past 1TB per cc for any reasonable extrapolation. Each bit requires at least 1µ with .5µ circuitry. presuming, of course, some form of access, each is thus 2µ per layer, so 0.5E12 bits per cc is a reasonable estimate.

Why .5µ? because that's the point at which most resistors are subject to electron tunnelling. You have to have some way of getting information in and out, and so that's why two layers deep.
 
You know - this thread sparked a thought of mine, and I can't help but wonder...

Just how economicially viable is the X-Boat system? In other words, does the carried data/goods carried on the x-boats pay for the cost of operations, cost of maintenance, and cost of replacement ships/parts during the operational period in question?

It might be interesting to run an analysis on just what an Xboat system has to charge in order to remain solvent without government subsidies. Lest people think "How difficult can it be to run a government subsidy - the statement I will respond with is "How often can you use the government run subsidy concept before the cost of all those government subsidies begin to run the government into bankruptcy?"

Just a thought to be sure ;)

Well, without knowing just how much it carries...

We can only get so far without knowing the data density and the relative amount of data travelling.
 
Right, so the beauty of the system is that the network node scanning the information automatically sorts out the old information from the databanks of whatever ship has just jumped in system. The network node doesn't even spend the time to download anything it doesn't need.


Shadowfax,

What you don't seem to understand is the economics of the situation. Is the benefits of more frequent updates - even with the new/old sorting you describe - worth the cost of more frequent departures?

Given the size of the Imperium,the cost of the X-boat network is quite literally astronomical. The numbers were run back on the TML several years ago using the DGP maps. Granted, the DGP maps may not be entirely accurate but, considering the size of a sector, the number of x-boats routes they show are definitely within the ballpark.

Assuming the daily arrivals I spoke about, Regina with her three X-boat routes has 42 x-boats working: seven outbound and seven inbound on each route. A system like Jewell will have seventy. That's ~2982 MCr worth of x-boats for Regina alone and 4970 MCr for Jewell. Assuming only daily arrivals, each link of the x-boat network is going to have 994 MCr of x-boats assigned to it.

And that's only x-boats. There's a very good argument that each link has a 275 MCr tender assigned to it; i.e. three for Regina and five for Jewell. Then there is salaries, maintenance, fuel, stores, groundside/orbital stations, backups, and all the rest.

The cost is so huge that, if the Imperium's military budget is said to include the x-boat system, the system would go a long way towards soaking up all those trillions we wonder how the IN spends.


Regards,
Bill

P.S. FWIW, I (roughly) count 90 x-boat links in the Marches alone, a sector of which the Imperium only controls half. That's 89460 MCr in daily arriving x-boats alone, again not counting all the other costs of the system.
 
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Shadowfax,

What you don't seem to understand is the economics of the situation. Is the benefits of more frequent updates - even with the new/old sorting you describe - worth the cost of more frequent departures?

Given the size of the Imperium,the cost of the X-boat network is quite literally astronomical. The numbers were run back on the TML several years ago using the DGP maps. Granted, the DGP maps may not be entirely accurate but, considering the size of a sector, the number of x-boats routes they show are definitely within the ballpark.

Assuming the daily arrivals I spoke about, Regina with her three X-boat routes has 42 x-boats working: seven outbound and seven inbound on each route. A system like Jewell will have seventy. That's ~2982 MCr worth of x-boats for Regina alone and 4970 MCr for Jewell. Assuming only daily arrivals, each link of the x-boat network is going to have 994 MCr of x-boats assigned to it.

And that's only x-boats. There's a very good argument that each link has a 275 MCr tender assigned to it; i.e. three for Regina and five for Jewell. Then there is salaries, maintenance, fuel, stores, groundside/orbital stations, backups, and all the rest.

The cost is so huge that, if the Imperium's military budget is said to include the x-boat system, the system would go a long way towards soaking up all those trillions we wonder how the IN spends.


Regards,
Bill

P.S. FWIW, I (roughly) count 90 x-boat links in the Marches alone, a sector of which the Imperium only controls half. That's 89460 MCr in daily arriving x-boats alone, again not counting all the other costs of the system.


------------------My point is that all ships would be helping to disseminate information not just the X-boats. There would be different classifications of information. I figure that the X-boats would carry public information. Whereas merchant ships and free traders would have more commercial information. These merchant and passenger ships are just following their normal routes. So they are not jumping for the sole purpose of disseminating information, they are just providing an additional supplementary update on top of that what the X-boats do. They are following their normal trading and passenger routes not jumping extra.

--------------For example, a free trader is contracted to carry some goods and a few passengers perhaps from System A to B. The trader's communications array picks up and stores current information from system A's Node and then he jumps to system B. On his way in to unload freight and passengers he passes by a System-B Node-buoy that interfaces again with his communications array. The buoy checks the timestamps of the data packages stored from System B to see if they are more current or not and if they are it informs the node and begins to run queries.

------------------The queries are run on informational tags that sort information based on its subject, classification and value. When a match is found an offer is made. If the offer coincides with the ship's accounting parameters (i.e. if the price is right) then the information is automatically sold and the free trader's account is credited.

----------------Ship's, organizations, companies, governments and individuals, who have an account with the system node (you pay a fee to be a member just like you do with your ISP) can also place queries (Like want ads) for information or things that they are looking for, want to know or want to buy/sell. The information about the goods or services could be bought and sold for a nominal fee. This nominal informational fee is what I am talking about. Transactions are handled automatically based on the parameters entered. The free trader's information is bought and his account is credited. he never makes a loss, because the parameters that the ship's accountant sets in the computer always ensure that a profit (however small it may be) can be made.

-------------------A hit list would be generated for items where buyers and sellers wanted to be personally involved in the decision making process and they would be informed as well. For example, If I lived on System A I might want to sell 100,000 old cleaning robots of a particular model. I would place an ad, which I would upload to System A's system node (think of it like an ISP). When the free trader jumps into system A he receives a communications burst from the node with all the system node's data. This data burst contains everything from the current travel weather on System A to market information on its stock exchange, to government announcements concerning the Amberzone in neighboring system Z and it also contains my ad for the sale of 100,000 cleaning robots. When the free trader jumps to system B and his ship's communications array is queried System B's node discovers my ad for the sale of the robots and matches it with a buyer who placed a query for 50,000 cleaning robots of the same model. The buyer has offered to pay X credits for information about this model of cleaning robot. So the free trader gets X credits for the information and the buyer is informed that there is a seller on System A with 100,000 cleaning robots that fit his specifications and are at the right price. That is more than enough to cover his order of 50,000 robots, so he will act fast and place an order. The buyer and the seller are brought together through the matching of the offers parameters with the parameters of the order, but the Free trader earns his credits through the informational fee that is paid.

-----------------This is a simplified example. Conceivably all sorts of information commercial and otherwise would be traded in this manner. The free trader always makes some money, because he is just carrying the information.

------------------The data transfers from various ships complement the regular bursts of information provided by the X-boat network. No one is going out of their way and making any extra jumps just for to collect informational fees. It is just something that is done. Every ship is a potential goldmine of salable information, but those informational fees though they add up rarely cover more than upkeep and maybe if you are really lucky one refueling.

----------------Follow me now?
 
No, in all seriousness, data densities are approaching the point where the physics as known preclude increasing the density too terribly much past 1TB per cc for any reasonable extrapolation. Each bit requires at least 1µ with .5µ circuitry. presuming, of course, some form of access, each is thus 2µ per layer, so 0.5E12 bits per cc is a reasonable estimate.

Why .5µ? because that's the point at which most resistors are subject to electron tunnelling. You have to have some way of getting information in and out, and so that's why two layers deep.

You are 100% spot on with the technologies in use now--- but keep in mind that DNA stores data on the order of 1 bit per cubic nanometer, which would be ~111 exabytes per cubic centimeter if I did the math right, so we know that there exists in nature methods to store data much more efficiently then we do now. So to quote Feynman, "there's plenty of room at the bottom". At least if IYTU you're willing to consider other storage technologies. The trick, of course, is not to select something that would break the TU when you do it.
 
You are 100% spot on with the technologies in use now--- but keep in mind that DNA stores data on the order of 1 bit per cubic nanometer, which would be ~111 exabytes per cubic centimeter if I did the math right, so we know that there exists in nature methods to store data much more efficiently then we do now. So to quote Feynman, "there's plenty of room at the bottom". At least if IYTU you're willing to consider other storage technologies. The trick, of course, is not to select something that would break the TU when you do it.

--------------------Yeah, and when I consider that when my grandma was my in her 20s there were no microwaves, no plastics, no TVs, very few cars, no PCs, No World Wide Web, no penicillin and no one had landed on the moon. Well, who knows what physical "laws" may be overturned by the time we reach tech 15?
 
--------------------Yeah, and when I consider that when my grandma was my in her 20s there were no microwaves, no plastics, no TVs, very few cars, no PCs, No World Wide Web, no penicillin and no one had landed on the moon. Well, who knows what physical "laws" may be overturned by the time we reach tech 15?

All the technologies you have mentioned do not violate the physics known to the physicists at the time of your grandmother's birth. A small but vocal minority believed mankind couldn't exceed the speed of sound, but they were wrong, and widely believed wrong. Sound's speed was measured in the mid 1800's.

All were plausible by the physics of the 1850's. Jules Verne was writing of such stuff in the 1880's.

To quote my high school science teacher: Physics doesn't change... it just adds the special case exemptions.

Now, 50 years ago, they genuinely didn't know that electron tunnelling effect rendered non-conductors semi-conducting at sub-micron levels, but they had predicted (due to wavelengths) issues with wires that small.
 
This whole set-up would be brilliant for an Unofficial TU that has no X-Boat system, it really would.
For practical purposes the Imperium of the OTU doesn't have an X-boat system. That is, not one that makes a difference to communication speed, except at a very local level. Any information that has to go more than 9 parsecs will arrive by weekly jump-6 navy courier before it arrives by six-hourly X-boat.


Hans
 
How eerie!

This conversation sounded vaguely familiar...so i looked though my notes for my many game related projects, and i found this. These notes refer to my "Open Season" project, that of the Terran Exodus IMTU.

These are raw notes, so forgive my lack of eloquence...they are transcribed exactly as written on 12/06/08...

Corporate Traders - aligned with merchant houses or mfg cartels, very few opportunities for independents

Scouts - independent, form own contracts with world govts for mail delivery or load data on their own (Want the news? Pay me!)
Some have media contractrs (Journalist/Scout?)
run science data services

In system communications

*REF - C J CHERRYH Merchanter War series
std - release courier-bot upon arrival in system, it goes to tgt + announces details?

* courier-bots in transit to outer system on schedule, have extensive radar + comm gear to send updates to mainworld

Yes, it seems eerily prescient...but it does show a set of circumstances where data does have some value.

BTW, this would happen in the Merchant Guild Era, about 2100-2250 IMTU.

I hope I managed to stir the pot enough to keep this very interesting discussion going...
 
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