Trading information (Making Merchant runs profitable)

[Sifu Blackirish]

So to quote Feynman, "there's plenty of room at the bottom". At least if IYTU you're willing to consider other storage technologies. The trick, of course, is not to select something that would break the TU when you do it.

Well, another thread comes to mind, where nanotechnology was discussed.

If nanotech is ingrained, you wouldn't even think of it as special. Think of how computerized cars are now. I had a '93 Buick that still started and ran okay with a warped head gasket. That onboard computer must have been doing handsprings to get it going, but i didn't notice (much).


so, with nanotech and synaptic processing, those densities discussed earlier would be credible.

 

[RockyMountainNavy]

Advance Knowledge

FWIW, a "canon" datapoint taken from the MT Guide available for download:

Advance Knowledge: Though current technology in the Imperium allows jump 6 travel, the standard means of ferrying information, the xboats, only travel at jump 4. Publicly, the Imperium writes this discrepancy off, citing the high cost of building new ships and the fact that many frontier routes simply do not need jump 6 service. The cost of jump 6 is high enough to make a universal jump 6 xboat network inefficient. But the Imperial government also knows the power of information, and maintains a variety of naval couriers which can make jump 6. Knowing vital facts before they become general knowledge is essential to a well-run bureaucracy.
When Strephon was assassinated on 132-1116, the word went out immediately by both naval courier and the standard news services. The following table shows the increasing discrepancy between the advance word and the official news:​

Assassination 132 1116 132-1116
World Advance Official
Word (J 6) News (J 4)
Vland 202 1116 237 1116
Dlan 244 1116 300 1116
Daibei 250 1116 309 1116
Terra 311 1116 036 1117
Regina 328 1116 067 1117
Home 001 1117 117 1117

Note that Dulinor announced the news locally in Dlan 245-1116. The further from the event, the greater the discrepancy between the advance word and the official news reports. As an example, at Regina, there was over one hundred days between the time the government and nobles knew about the Emperor's assassination and the time the official news reports were broadcast to the public. This gave the nobles one hundred days to prepare themselves, possibly to sway public opinion, and to lessen the shock when the news became available to the masses.​

 

[rancke]

FWIW, a "canon" datapoint taken from the MT Guide available for download:

Advance Knowledge: Though current technology in the Imperium allows jump 6 travel, the standard means of ferrying information, the xboats, only travel at jump 4. Publicly, the Imperium writes this discrepancy off, citing the high cost of building new ships and the fact that many frontier routes simply do not need jump 6 service. The cost of jump 6 is high enough to make a universal jump 6 xboat network inefficient. But the Imperial government also knows the power of information, and maintains a variety of naval couriers which can make jump 6. Knowing vital facts before they become general knowledge is essential to a well-run bureaucracy.​

It's worth very little, because it makes several unwarranted assumptions: One, that there are no civilian jump-5 and jump-6 ships, even though any PC with the requisite amount of money can get one build at an TL15 shipyard; and two, that every single Imperial bureaucrat and admiral who get the advance notice is capable of and has the motivation to keep the secret secret. There are 34 Imperial subsectors Behind the Claw important enough to warrant its own regular fleet. That's 34 dukes/counts, 34 fleet admirals, and every member of their staffs that they impart the information to. To imagine that a couple of hundred people can keep a secret like that is highly unlikely. Then there are the megacorporate private couriers. Unless we want to imagine that the megacorporations wouldn't have their own courier networks (and I for sure have extreme difficulty imagining that), we have another 3 or 400 regional managers who gets the advance notice. Then there are the planetary governments of the high-population worlds, who may not have a very extensive courier network, but would most certainly have one for communication with Capital. And finally, unless the Imperium expressly suppresses jump-5 and jump-6 (Which we know is not the case), there will be a few high-speed passenger liners connecting all the sector capitals at the very least.

The whole story just doesn't make sense.



Hans

 

[aramis]

But Hans, the cost profile of J5 and J6 ships is insanely high... both in terms of building and operating, and especially shipping.

Few civilian groups are going to be able to afford more than a few, since the benefit is only felt on distances greater than 8 Pc...

 

[rancke]

But Hans, the cost profile of J5 and J6 ships is insanely high... both in terms of building and operating, and especially shipping.

A jump-6 passenger ship needs to charge a per parsec cost about six times as much as a jump-3 ship[*]. So the question becomes, are there enough rich people on one sector capital who'll pay six times the cost to get to the neighboring sector capital twice as fast to keep at least one high-speed passenger line between them in business? Rich people tend to put a premium on their time.

[*] Though in this case power plant fuel tankage makes a huge difference; my calculations are based on the assumption that power plants consume a reasonable amount of fuel, rather than the ridiculous amounts that HG demands.​

Few civilian groups are going to be able to afford more than a few, since the benefit is only felt on distances greater than 8 Pc...

1) One is all it takes.

2) All 13 megacorporations fall into that group.

3) Planetary governments of high-population worlds also fall into that group.

4) If advance knowledge is valuable, someone will be able to make a profit providing it.

5) If there are people willing to pay the cost, a passenger line can make a profit running a jump-6 passenger service.


EDIT: And then there's a group of people I haven't thought of before: Those who can afford to pay insanely high prices for a yacht -- billionaires. The percentage of billionaires in any population is very small, but any high-population world will have a decent number of them. No doubt some of them won't want to spend their cash on jump-6 yachts, but some of them will. Can you imagine the Bill Gates-analogs and Michael Jackson-analogs NOT buying jump-6 yachts? Seriously? The ultra-rich puts a high premium on their time.

So there you are, a billionaire from Rhylanor indulging in your hobby of anthropology by studying the marriage customs of Fornol, and one day the traffic from Capital suddenly ceases. Some days later -- a week, maybe even two -- the news of Strephon's assasination finally makes it the five parsecs from Capital to Fornol in one way or another. What are you going to do? I say you're going to jump into your jump-6 yacht and get home to Rhylanor as fast as it'll take you.

OK, it's perfectly possible that no billionaires from Rhylanor will be in the Imperial core at the critical time. But it's an on certainty bordering probability that SOME billionaires from Vland, Corridor, Deneb, Trojan Reach, and/or the Spinward Marches are going to be in the vicinity (quite a few on Capital itself, of course), and even a single one is going to bugger up that neat little timetable above.



Hans

 

[aramis]

Actually, Hans, it requires not just that they have the means, but the motivation. The megaorps, if they had the motivation, would have them; the only one we know about is Imperiallines, and that's on imperial subsidy.

The others must have some disincentive.

 

[rancke]

Actually, Hans, it requires not just that they have the means, but the motivation. The megacorps, if they had the motivation, would have them; the only one we know about is Imperiallines, and that's on imperial subsidy.

I can't imagine that the megacorporations wouldn't want it. And while a jump-6 passenger liner may be expensive, a jump-6 courier only costs 3.5 times that of an X-boat.

The others must have some disincentive.

What would that be? The desire to give any rival who does invest in couriers a valuable advantage? Or perhaps advanced notice isn't actually valuable? Just what sort of advantage is it the Bureaucracy allegedly derives from getting their information by jump-6 instead of by slow, plodding jump-4? The whole setup is presumably not in place just in case someone assassinates the Emperor. So why is the Bureaucracy so interested in getting their news half a year in advance? And is it possible that the Megacorporations won't see the need to keep up with the bureaucrats? I'd say that was highly unlikely.

If advanced notice is valuable, someone will attempt to get advance notice. If it isn't valuable, what's all the fuss about?



Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

If nanotech is ingrained, you wouldn't even think of it as special.

Blackirish56,

That's known in the Hobby as the Toaster Effect or Telephone Pole Effect. Objects and technologies become so commonplace that no one notices them.

The effect is generally applied to explain why robots are "missing" in the setting; i.e. people in the 57th Century see them as "toasters". Robots are literally beneath the average person's notice.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

My point is that all ships would be helping to disseminate information not just the X-boats.

Shadowfax,

It still makes no difference. In fact, depending on trading vessels to carry information regularly, routinely, and reliably to worlds will still require subsidies. Merchants are going to follow markets and if the markets aren't there or if the markets are weak, you'll get no message traffic or greatly delayed message traffic.

The trader's communications array picks up and stores current information from system A's Node and then he jumps to system B. On his way in to unload freight and passengers he passes by a System-B Node-buoy that interfaces again with his communications array. The buoy checks the timestamps of the data packages stored from System B to see if they are more current or not and if they are it informs the node and begins to run queries.

Who pays for the node bouys? Who maintains them? Who pays for the groundside equipment? The up/down links? The software? The maintenance it all requires

Who collects all the fees? Who pays all the fees? How does a ship prove it carried a data package? Why would the system pay for a packet with a timestamp older than the newest in it's queue?

Who trusts Cap'n Blackie of the Running Boil not to queer the system for his own benefit?

Follow me now?

I've done so since the beginning. I'm afraid you don't follow nature of interstellar communications in the setting, economics, infrastructure demands, and a host of other issues.

The costs, operational attributes, and temporal uncertainties associated with jump drive mean that an interstellar comm system can't work like an ISP with a 168 hour delay.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

That's known in the Hobby as the Toaster Effect or Telephone Pole Effect. Objects and technologies become so commonplace that no one notices them.

The effect is generally applied to explain why robots are "missing" in the setting; i.e. people in the 57th Century see them as "toasters". Robots are literally beneath the average person's notice.

That's not how I explain it, though. Here's a bit from another of my player fact sheets (also unfinished, alas):

"Robots that can replace men at many tasks are quite possible with Imperial technology, but in most societies they are not utilized to their full potential. There are all sorts of prejudices against robots: they can’t handle unforeseen situations, they take the bread out of the mouths of honest workers, you can’t trust them, they could go berserk at any moment, they’re creepy, etc.

Robots are also prime targets for terrorists. There are few jokes a terrorist relishes more than reprogramming a butlerbot to go berserk at its master’s next gala ball. Workers’ rights activists likewise have a penchant for sabotaging work robots, though usually they program them to mess up the work they do rather than to kill anyone. The security measures and insurance premiums this attitude imposes increase the cost of owning a robot to the point where real people often turn out to be the more economic choice."​

YMMV.


Hans

 

[robject]

Assuming the daily arrivals I spoke about, Regina with her three X-boat routes has 42 x-boats working: seven outbound and seven inbound on each route. A system like Jewell will have seventy. That's ~2982 MCr worth of x-boats for Regina alone and 4970 MCr for Jewell. Assuming only daily arrivals, each link of the x-boat network is going to have 994 MCr of x-boats assigned to it.

And that's only x-boats. There's a very good argument that each link has a 275 MCr tender assigned to it; i.e. three for Regina and five for Jewell. Then there is salaries, maintenance, fuel, stores, groundside/orbital stations, backups, and all the rest.

[...]

P.S. FWIW, I (roughly) count 90 x-boat links in the Marches alone, a sector of which the Imperium only controls half. That's 89460 MCr in daily arriving x-boats alone, again not counting all the other costs of the system.

On Thursday Marc decided the same thing about frequency: daily arrivals are likely.

I like the concept of one Tender per Xboat link.

I counted Thursday, and I came up with:

In the Spinward Marches, there are 16 terminal nodes, 47 two-leg nodes, 20 three- leg nodes, 2 four- leg nodes, and one five- leg node. At two Xboats per route leg (more or less, and the Jump-5 leg in Lunion is an exceptional case; essentially one Xboat for each direction), there are therefore approximately 365 Xboats active in the Spinward Marches, with about the same number of Xboats inactive for various reasons (e.g. reserve or maintenance).

At appx MCr 140 for an Xboat in T5, that yields a price tag of somewhere around BCr 100, plus MCr 220 for each of about 85 active Tenders + (oh, say) 85 spares, yields BCr 34, for a grand total of BCr 134. Plus all other expenses (like headcount and admin and transceiver installations...)

 

[Shadowfax]

mega post

Shadowfax,

It still makes no difference. In fact, depending on trading vessels to carry information regularly, routinely, and reliably to worlds will still require subsidies. Merchants are going to follow markets and if the markets aren't there or if the markets are weak, you'll get no message traffic or greatly delayed message traffic.

This network is not for regular primary sales. Its more like a want ads kind of system. Information of a higher commercial classification will be handled in a more dedicated manner. Someone will actually charge someone with completing the transactions as well as the shipping and receiving of any physical goods. That is not what I am talking about here.

There are some types of information that will be classified with a high commercial classification. This information will be handled carefully and bought and sold carefully. The rest of the information is almost incidental.

I guess it depends on the volume of traffic to some degree doesn't it? Still they do not need to depend on this system. It is not as critical as the information carried by the X-boat system. Information doesn't have to come routinely, regularly or reliably. It just comes and the transactions are made based upon what the ship has to offer in terms of the information that is being piggybacked and what the buyers are looking for. Maybe there is nothing there for a particular buyer one week, but next month there is. Business is first come first serve. So you do not want to be buying or selling cargoes of a perishable nature this way, but maybe you need a part and can't get it on your world. You make a posting and every out going ship carries the information with it. The first person to respond with the right price makes the sale.

If the information is important enough (i.e. The associated sale is big enough) then a ship will be charged or contracted with carrying that information directly. Someone will look at this kind of transaction -probably the ship's bursar or trader or broker or whatever. In this case the ship forms the link between the buyer in one system and the seller in another. The ship here plays a dedicated role transferring information and even shipping the goods. In the other case the ship merely transfers the information. Buyer and seller have to find their own way to transact the sale, but even this usually runs over a clearing house (maybe the starport authority) and in any case, through the network. Ships that have empty cargo space can always rent that empty space for the transaction of petty sales and shipping. It’s a way of getting the hold full if you do not have a cargo.

Each buyer will have contracted someone to execute his or her critical business. This is just a supplemental way of earning income for the merchant, an incidental sale for the seller and an incidental purchase for the buyer. That is all. If the transaction is really important then the buyer and seller will contact a dedicated service for the transaction (i.e. hire the merchantman directly to carry the goods, services or information) In this case, the buyer or seller may even travel directly to the other system to transact the sale. That is not what I am talking about here.

If you are at a hub like, well lets say Regina. There would be plenty of ships jumping in and out. In addition you would have the regular X-boats coming and going - all of them carrying information updates to the systems that they visit. Each time a ship enters the system its comm-array trades a burst of information with the system's communication array, protocols sort the info through tags and eliminate any outdated info in milliseconds. In milliseconds the info is sorted, disseminated and posted to the proper query. Given what computers would be able to do that is not that difficult to imagine.

Even if you are on a backwater world some old news and information is going to be better than none at all. Remember it is not just commercial information that is being carried. It might be news. Backwater markets might also hang behind core markets in terms of prices and values. Sales can be made before goods are shipped or after depending on the terms set up by the buyer and seller.

Who pays for the node bouys? Who maintains them? Who pays for the groundside equipment? The up/down links? The software? The maintenance it all requires

That is all part of the already existing communications infrastructure. I do not know who “owns” the infrastructure, because I do not really know how the Imperium runs the X-boat network or the starports. My guess is that it would be done through the starport authority. If the Imperium can pay for an extensive X-boat network, then they could easily pay for this. In fact, it could be a part of the Imperial communications system linking all the Imperial systems. Alternatively, each system could be responsible for its own node or a portion of the infrastructure. That could mean that some systems do not have a node, but everyone would try to get one so that they could better share information and be linked to the core. I am not entirely sure about this like I said, but it is definitely financially do-able if the X-boat system exists.

It doesn't mean that there is an entirely separate communications network for the system. There is just a segment or channel of the existing network open to deal with the transfer of this sort of information. The priority is lower than government, official or military information. The priority would also be lower than say "class-AAA" commercial information, which would be carried directly by x-boats and would be paid for in a different way. My guess is that all the mega-corps would use this exclusive classification for information. It would be closed to small businessmen. The information would be encoded differently and pass though separate channels, but on the same network. Does this make sense? An example, banks use the telephone infrastructure to send SWIFT Messages back and forth, companies use that same infrastructure to conduct B2B business and you well you call mom using it. So you are all using the same infrastructure, but your mom never gets a SWIFT message for a billion dollar Asian inter-bank financial transfer.

Who collects all the fees?

The fees paid for the carrying and transfer (selling) of the information are credited automatically to the ship's service account. This credit can act as a discount on your berthing fees and your fueling and maintenance fees from the starport authority or maybe you can use it to pay for something else. Most would use it as a credit against the cost of berthing, maintenance and fueling. Prices are adjusted automatically, based on the level of credit you have. The rest has to be paid for normally.

The buying of information is handled as a transaction against the bank account of the person querying for the information on planet. This is deducted as part of their utility payment for the use of the network node. The network node is usually owned and operated by the starport authority or maybe the planetary government.

Individuals on planet can also sell information in which case their utilities account is credited and the account of ship owner buying the information is debited. It’s basic accounting. The network protocols and the computers make the sorting, classifying, querying and posting of information and the credit transfers possible. The only lag is the balancing of the Starport authorities accounts and that occurs regularly with the next x-Boat run or the next ship to jump into system – that information is automatically piggybacked.

Who pays all the fees?

No one actually physically pays credits it’s all electronic. The computer network handles the transactions. Credits are all electronic anyway right?

How does a ship prove it carried a data package?

The data packages are tagged with a time stamp, reference code and a unique ID number for the ship. Something like the ship's VIN number. Its not like the captain is ever asked it just happens automatically. The credit shows up the bursar proofs it and knows how many points the ship earned. He may then make a decision about whether to use the points to discount berthing, maintenance and refueling costs or he buy some higher classed commercial information (something dedicated) for the next jump. There would also be information of a speculative commercial nature. Most captains and ship’s bursars would steer clear of this information or only spend a very small percentage of their profit on it (max 20%). This information would be more volatile and could bring big wins or losses for a ship. Most captains would be conservative here. After all, who wants to lose their livelihood?

. . . .

 

[Shadowfax]

Mega PostII

Why would the system pay for a packet with a timestamp older than the newest in it's queue?

It wouldn't. The sort protocol would look at the timestamp on that tag, see that it was older than the current information about that subject and tell the ship to dump/delete that worthless data from its database. The ship wouldn't get paid for it.

This can happen, but it is not so bad, because the ships information buying protocols have prioritized the information that the ship is looking to buy and set constraints, so that the ship can never go into debt. What could happen is someone could jump in just before you do and you get nothing. In which case the captain wouldn't be able to buy any high-class information, but his ship would still carry piggybacked information transmitted by the system node before jumping out of the system. Maybe he would be luckier in the next system.

The credit account is nothing that the merchantmen bank on. It is just a little icing on the cake for helping the flow of information between systems. At most you would be able to pay for a small portion of your berthing, maintenance and fueling costs. The starport authority acts as a sort of clearing house between the buyer and the seller.

Who trusts Cap'n Blackie of the Running Boil not to queer the system for his own benefit?

No one - because no one has to. The system works based on ISP (Imperial Standard Protocols). Captain Blackie and his boys would have to be really good hackers to crack that system. Sure every now and then someone will find a way to exploit the existing system, just like with the internet today. People can hack into your system on the Internet today, but here we all are communicating, trading, buying and selling on it aren’t we. There is probably also some sort of bonding or insurance that you can have to cover potential losses incurred through information fraud. I don’t know I haven’t fleshed this entire thing out yet, but clearly there is potential there.

I've done so since the beginning. I'm afraid you don't follow nature of interstellar communications in the setting, economics, infrastructure demands, and a host of other issues.

Maybe not, but I am as equally unsure that you follow what I am getting at. I think it is more of an inability on my part to be able to explain the idea in a way that it can be understood. If a system like the Internet can work then so can this system. The only difference is the jump drive.

Ok, so you have the pony express. All I am saying is that the technology for the transfer of the information is not physical. When an X-boat comes into a system what is it carrying and what does it do? As far as I understand it is carrying electronic data. It docks with a tender, which relays the X-boat's information to the planet (See Supplement 7, Pg 11). If this system works in the Imperium for the transfer of information then so does mine. In fact my system merely serves to supplement the X-boat system. The technology and the infrastructure would already be there on most worlds. Sure there would be frontier worlds and low population worlds that maybe wouldn’t be hooked up, but that is life isn’t it. There is a big difference between trading in New York, Fankfurt or Tokyo and trading in Muskira, Ash Shaab or even Derzhavinsk. That’s the verse right?

The costs, operational attributes, and temporal uncertainties associated with jump drive mean that an interstellar comm system can't work like an ISP with a 168 hour delay.
Regards,
Bill

Why not? The cost is not an issue as it is already part of the standard communications infrastructure. Ships need to be able to transmit and receive data from the system anyway.

I assume that the starport authority would be in charge of infrastructure like this. The way the organization is described it seems that they would be the logical choice. They probably charge fees from the locals to use the net. Businesses and Mega-corps probably pay for it as well. In some cases the Imperial government may even subsidize the cost. I don’t see why it would be some sort of impossibility.

As for temporal uncertainties, well yes, you will have that. Your information could be old and no one will buy so you will get no credit, but on the other hand you won't lose anything either because your computer will have set constraints on the buying of information.

You sell when you jump in system. You buy just before you jump out. That is the way it works. Thus, you know how much you have received and how much you want to buy. You never buy more supplemental information than you have credit for. Most captains will buy very little at all anyway unless they have been contracted to pick up certain information as part of their run for a buyer.

In addition, a lot of the information that you piggy-back will supplemental and will be free to you. It doesn’t cost more to send a few more million terabytes of data does it? The seller wants to sell the goods and you have plenty of storage space in your ship's Database.

The seller pays the starport authority for the "ad". The ad information is transferred to the ship without any fee. The buyer buys the information in the next system. The merchant credited from the starport authority for carrying the information. This is called the Carrying fee. The next time a ship jumps the Starport authority balances its accounts.

The information only costs the buyer in the next system something. That is called the Querying fee. You can't go into information fee debt, because you as a buyer are only looking for particular information and know what you will pay for it beforehand. you set up a constraint that says how much the information is worth to you.

No one looks at this system it just runs in the background. Millions of transactions are handled by the computers each jump.

 

[JAFARR]

I missed this earlier. Likely because I wasn't using this forum that much at the time of the OP. Information sales was how Nivin's Outsiders made their money. And they paid for information too. But our discussion is how or can it apply to Traveller.

Gunboats & Traders pg 8

The express boat (also called an xboat)​

​

​

​

is a small, fast ship filled with a pilot
compartment, message data banks, and jump drives. The fit is so tight that there is​

no room even for maneuver drives. Each is capable of jump-4 (four parsecs per
week);​

​

​

​

it jumps, relays i t s messages to the station on arrival, and then waits to be
picked up by a tender, to be refuelled and sent on its way with a new load of
messages. The local station, meanwhile, accepts messages, encodes them, and
transmits them to a tender at the edges of the stellar system. Messages brought by
the arriving xboat and intended for further down the line are consolidated with the
new data and all are sent on to another xboat already fuelled and standing ready to
leave. The entire network operates like the pony express - messages are always
moving at top speed. Transfer time for messages from one xboat to another can be
as short as ten minutes, and is rarely more than an hour.
The express boat tender is responsible for servicing the xboats when they arrive.​

It​

​

​

​

constantly roams about the stellar system, picking up newly arrived xboats,
refuelling them, performing minor maintenance operations, replacing fatigued
pilots, and generally seeing to the welfare of the xboat station. The tender also
carries data banks which relay messages to the xboats just before they leave for the
next system. It also carries replacement pilots for the xboats.
The scout/courier is the final part of the network, although this type of ship is
not restricted to working with the express boat system. The xboat network is a​

general framework of routes connecting major worlds and population centers with
other similar worlds. Economic considerations make​

​

​

​

it impossible for the network
to reach every single world in the Imperium; the scout/courier is used to fill the
gaps. When a message 'can no longer be forwarded by xboat along the major routes,​

it is​

​

​

​

transferred to a scout/courier which then carries it to the specific world in
question. Main routes are plotted to come within several parsecs of every star
system in the Imperium, so the added transit time is rarely more than an extra three​

or four weeks.

This makes it sound like the system under discussion already exists under the jurisdiction of the scout service. So what is left? Illegal information certainly. Public information to systems not on the X-boat lines certainly. But I think your best chance for a profit is a hit or miss proposition in being able to convey some bit of non-publicized information to someone who needs that specific info. That makes it sound like a patron encounter from my point of view. Streetwise, admin and laision skills would come into play in creating the chance for that encounter.

Maybe in YTU there is a version of Nivin's Outsiders, someone known to deal in information. It could be a person, a company, a libary service, etc.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Whipsnade]

The ship wouldn't get paid for it.

Shadowfax,

They don't get paid? Tell me why they're carrying the information again?

Maybe not, but I am as equally unsure that you follow what I am getting at.

I think I have a very good idea of what you're suggesting.

You want every ship flying in the Imperium to be carrying an atuomatic "handshake" comm system of a sort. As it leaves a system, it automatically uploads the latest data packet available and as it enters a system it downloads the packet it's carrying. It's all completely automatic with computers doing all the bit checking and time stamp vetting beneath everyday human notice.

I think it is more of an inability on my part to be able to explain the idea in a way that it can be understood.

In my 30+ years of professional training experience ranging from nuclear power to microchip clean rooms to statistical process control, I've learned that if you can't explain an idea in a way that can be understood you don't understand the idea well enough yourself.

If a system like the Internet can work then so can this system. The only difference is the jump drive.

Jump drive is the reason it won't work. Jump drive and human nature.

When an X-boat comes into a system what is it carrying and what does it do? As far as I understand it...

The data transfer isn't said to require docking. It's generally assumed the 'boat squirts it's data to the tender who then repeats the data via a more powerful signal to the mainworld.

If this system works in the Imperium for the transfer of information then so does mine. In fact my system merely serves to supplement the X-boat system.

You're failing to realize that there are already other systems supplementing the x-boat system. Messages don't only flow along those few lines on the subsector maps.

Do yourself a favor, google "Anthony Jackson Traveller trade maps" and take a look at the myriad routes merchant shipping flies in the Imperium. Scheduled and subsidized ships belonging to trusted and reputable firms fly those routes on published timetables. Those are the ships that already carry the message traffic you want every Tom, Dick, and Eneri to be wired for.

The technology and the infrastructure would already be there on most worlds.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Sure there would be frontier worlds and low population worlds that maybe wouldn’t be hooked up, but that is life isn’t it.

Guess what? The same worlds your Interstellar ISP system skips because they're too poor or unskilled? They're on trade routes, minor routes, but routes all the same. So the setting's already existing message system serves more worlds at essentially the same speed that your suggested one does.

So why are should they pay for your system again?

The cost is not an issue as it is already part of the standard communications infrastructure. Ships need to be able to transmit and receive data from the system anyway.

Already part of the standard comm system? Sez who?

Ships to need to transmit and receive data. Do they also need to transmit and receive at the speeds, volumes, and accuracies your automatic, beneath-human-notice, system requires? Squirting an ETA is a bit different from accurately receiving, storing, and broadcasting huge data packages.

No one looks at this system it just runs in the background. Millions of transactions are handled by the computers each jump.

Yeah, no one looks at it. That's a biggest part of the problem. It's all just automatic, everyone has to be part of the system, it normally runs beneath everyone's notice, and anyone can "spike" or "queer" the system before anyone realizes what is going on. The system uses your memory and processing power, the data arrives automatically, but there's a good chance you won't even get paid for hosting the files. You've got to automatically download the packet, don't even have choice in the matter, but no one checks it for malware.

TNE talked about how the Deyo transponders were a disaster waiting to happen. Your proposed system is an even bigger disaster because it won't rely on Deyo chips or Virus to blow up.

Summing up, message traffic in the Imperium is handled by more than just IISS X-boats. Merchants, subsidized or corporate, carry message traffic, as do couriers both military and civilian. This system is robust, safe, trusted, and covers every system on a trade route no matter how small.

Your proposed system doesn't cover as many worlds as the already existing systems do, imposes an additional financial burden on all ships and the few worlds serviced, has little or no security, and thus is wholly unnecessary.

Of course, this all applies to the OTU. What you do IYTU is your own call.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Shadowfax]

Shadowfax,

They don't get paid? Tell me why they're carrying the information again?

Well, what I mean here is they do not get paid for every bit and byte of info they are carrying, they can cary a lot of information and it is no skin off of their nose. "Why do they carry it?", because it is social, it is patriotic, its a way to serve the Duke and the Imperium and because it doesn't cost them anything to carry it.

I think I have a very good idea of what you're suggesting.

You want every ship flying in the Imperium to be carrying an atuomatic "handshake" comm system of a sort. As it leaves a system, it automatically uploads the latest data packet available and as it enters a system it downloads the packet it's carrying. It's all completely automatic with computers doing all the bit checking and time stamp vetting beneath everyday human notice.

Yes, but of course your ship's broker can install and configure various filters to look for data that you know special buyers (Your Customers) are interested in. The ship's Broker, or hell maybe its the ship's computer techie for all I care, would also set price thresholds on certain information that you would want to buy. So you could have a customer that you ran into somewhere who is looking for a deal on some rare classic jump coil part. You'd write a query for the information and set a price threshhold of so many credits (lets just say 1000Cr in this case) to receive that information. If an offer for the information queried is uploaded and it is less than 1000Cr the ship's computer authorizes the buy. If there is an offer for the same info that is over 1000Cr then you get a message that the offer is there and you are asked if you want to pay a higher price. Unless of course you have configured the filter absolutely to take only offers less than 1000Cr and disregard all other offers.

In my 30+ years of professional training experience ranging from nuclear power to microchip clean rooms to statistical process control, I've learned that if you can't explain an idea in a way that can be understood you don't understand the idea well enough yourself.

Look, I just came up with the idea. I am talking about it here to flesh it out. I am a consesus builder. I like to hear what others have to say about the idea, maybe what they have to add. Even the critique that you are giving me is fine, because it helps me define the idea more and work out the kinks. Yet, I can't help but get the feeling you just want to shoot the idea down.

Jump drive is the reason it won't work. Jump drive and human nature.

I am not going to get into a discussion about time travel and relativity, just because if we were to do everything realistically traveller wouldn't be any fun. Just like my thread with the boarding actions. Realistically I don' think that they would happen much, but they are too fun to leave out of the game.
I am not sure how human nature would interfere with such a information trade system. Maybe you can explain to me in more detail what you mean by this. Why do you think that people wouldn't use a system like this? What is to say that it is not already a part of the system that is out there. If the computer technology exists, which it certainly would even by tech 12, then its only logical that someone in the imperium would have thought up such a service and implemented it already. Even if GDW didn't think about it when they made CT.

The data transfer isn't said to require docking. It's generally assumed the 'boat squirts it's data to the tender who then repeats the data via a more powerful signal to the mainworld.

Ok, so the system that I am talking about already exists and there is infrastructure availible to support the very service that I am talking about. Or?

You're failing to realize that there are already other systems supplementing the x-boat system. Messages don't only flow along those few lines on the subsector maps.

Ok, so a system like what I am talking about is already in place perfect. I didn't know that.

 

[Shadowfax]

Shadowfax's response to Whipsnade (Part II)

Do yourself a favor, google "Anthony Jackson Traveller trade maps" and take a look at the myriad routes merchant shipping flies in the Imperium. Scheduled and subsidized ships belonging to trusted and reputable firms fly those routes on published timetables. Those are the ships that already carry the message traffic you want every Tom, Dick, and Eneri to be wired for.
I wouldn't be so sure.

So are you saying there are too many ships to carry the information or not enough?

Ok, lets say there are too many ships: That just means the updates are quicker and the competition is stiffer. You have a greater chance of earning little or nothing, but it is still no skin off your nose, because you are only carrying eletronic data that doesn't weigh anything and its not costing you anything to carry it.

Lets say there are not enough ships: Ok, I grant you that this could be a greater problem. The data may be older, but some data will still bevaluable and you also have to think about the population of a world. If there is a planet out there with even a few million inhabitants they are going to have a lot of needs and there will always be some kind of demand. The only time that I see the system having very little value is on a low pop planet with low demand and few visiting ships. Even then these people might be interested in the latest news or rates on water condensers from coreward systems. I really don't see the problems that you see. I am just kicking this around here.

Guess what? The same worlds your Interstellar ISP system skips because they're too poor or unskilled? They're on trade routes, minor routes, but routes all the same. So the setting's already existing message system serves more worlds at essentially the same speed that your suggested one does.


So why are should they pay for your system again?

Ok, so maybe my system is just a service that runs as a process in the already existing route system. I mean, the way I always thought of these trade routes is like the way international shipping works on a large scale (for the big lines) and sort of the way firefly was for the free traders. That describes or defines the polar extremes of the currently existing system, but as far as I knew the currently exisitng system only deals with cargos and the currently exisiting X-boat system only deals with data, but only along trunk routes. So marry the two systems and let them coexist. That way you have a system delivering governmental and high piority information along trunklines (the X-boat system) and a system for transferring and trading all sorts of commercial and asundry other data.

Already part of the standard comm system? Sez who?

Well, you were the one talking about "squirting data" right? If the Xboats can do that to the tenders then why can't regular merchant ships do it too? Lets turn the arguement around. Who says that given the technology it takes a special comm array to do this. I think the comm arrays that all the ships have might be advanced enough to relay this kind of information already.

Ships to need to transmit and receive data. Do they also need to transmit and receive at the speeds, volumes, and accuracies your automatic, beneath-human-notice, system requires? Squirting an ETA is a bit different from accurately receiving, storing, and broadcasting huge data packages.

Is it considering the technological advances that we are talking about the Traveller? Who is to say that it is not possible. I mean, especially now that we don't need to allocate so many tons of space for our computers as was originally thought. Look how fast IT has grown in the past few decades. Imagine how far it could be in the traveller universe. I don't think it is so far fetched for all ships to be capable of squirting data like this. They do not need to carry all the data, because a lot of it will be filtered out because it is old. Each ship will also have a data trade rating that may could possibly limit the type of data that they could carry. I ship with a a bad reputation (maybe suspicion of smuggling, piracy or just a bad credit rating) might not get the authorization to carry class 'AAA' commercial data.

Yeah, no one looks at it. That's a biggest part of the problem. It's all just automatic, everyone has to be part of the system, it normally runs beneath everyone's notice, and anyone can "spike" or "queer" the system before anyone realizes what is going on. The system uses your memory and processing power, the data arrives automatically, but there's a good chance you won't even get paid for hosting the files. You've got to automatically download the packet, don't even have choice in the matter, but no one checks it for malware.

Ok, now these are the better arguments. Hmm . . . what about the Xboat system? Does it get spiked or queered? Aren't they handling Bazillions of terabytes of info too? Do they look at all that data? Come on man. Even the financial systems that we have today are automatic. Sure there are people and processes skimming the data checking it. There are virus scanners. And the Brokers they know what info they want and are looking for. Together with the ship's computer tech they are configuring the filters and writing the queries for the information that they want to buy and setting prices on the info that they want to sell at a proprietory price.

TNE talked about how the Deyo transponders were a disaster waiting to happen. Your proposed system is an even bigger disaster because it won't rely on Deyo chips or Virus to blow up.

Sorry never heard of it. TNE doesn't exist for me. It was all one big bad dream that never happened.

Summing up, message traffic in the Imperium is handled by more than just IISS X-boats. Merchants, subsidized or corporate, carry message traffic, as do couriers both military and civilian. This system is robust, safe, trusted, and covers every system on a trade route no matter how small.

Your proposed system doesn't cover as many worlds as the already existing systems do, imposes an additional financial burden on all ships and the few worlds serviced, has little or no security, and thus is wholly unnecessary.

Well, perhaps I am not familiar with the system that is already in place in TRaveller then. I am only familiar with CT and go mainly by that. I haven't read any TNE or what came after.
The way that CT describes the system sounds very old. I don't know what TNE proposed, but if the system already exists then this service could clearly exist as a part of it, which only serves to reenforce my idea. = )

Of course, this all applies to the OTU. What you do IYTU is your own call.


Regards,
Bill

Yes, as always. Maybe I will have to get an old copy of TNE and read it. I have to confess that I read a little about TRaveller 2300 and then the rest didn't interest me, because it didn't seem to mesh well. There was one edition that was really crap I can't remember if it was the one with the computer virus or the rebellion. I think it was the virus anyway. CT is still the canon for me which is why I started this thread under the CT threads (or at least I think I did).

For me there is only CT and Striker and the rest is just out there in left field.

 

[Shadowfax]

No, in all seriousness, data densities are approaching the point where the physics as known preclude increasing the density too terribly much past 1TB per cc for any reasonable extrapolation. Each bit requires at least 1µ with .5µ circuitry. presuming, of course, some form of access, each is thus 2µ per layer, so 0.5E12 bits per cc is a reasonable estimate.

Why .5µ? because that's the point at which most resistors are subject to electron tunnelling. You have to have some way of getting information in and out, and so that's why two layers deep.

Ah, but we are talking about "physics as they are in the far future" not "as known" aren't we?

 

[Shadowfax]

This makes it sound like the system under discussion already exists under the jurisdiction of the scout service. So what is left? Illegal information certainly. Public information to systems not on the X-boat lines certainly. But I think your best chance for a profit is a hit or miss proposition in being able to convey some bit of non-publicized information to someone who needs that specific info. That makes it sound like a patron encounter from my point of view. Streetwise, admin and laision skills would come into play in creating the chance for that encounter.
Maybe in YTU there is a version of Nivin's Outsiders, someone known to deal in information. It could be a person, a company, a libary service, etc.

Part of the problem in my opinion is the spotty information available about the Xboat system and the information carried. I was always under the impression that the X-boat system was only carrying government or "state" information. Maybe there would be some kind of TAS reports or advisories or some sort of PBS/NPR "podcasts" in that data dump, but I do not ever remember reading anything about trade or commercial data being exchanged. I confess I have a bad memory, but my impression from what I read was that the X-boat system carried Imperial "state" information and maybe the news but, not private trade and commerical data.

As far as I am concerned the two systems can be married. Either my trade system exists as a separate private parallel trade data system to the current X-boat and merchant line systems or it is just a description of a service provided by the system already in place. It just seems logical to me that there would be such a informational exchange service in place. Afterall, it would seem that the demand and the technology exist.

 

[Shadowfax]

On Thursday Marc decided the same thing about frequency: daily arrivals are likely.

I like the concept of one Tender per Xboat link.

I counted Thursday, and I came up with:



At appx MCr 140 for an Xboat in T5, that yields a price tag of somewhere around BCr 100, plus MCr 220 for each of about 85 active Tenders + (oh, say) 85 spares, yields BCr 34, for a grand total of BCr 134. Plus all other expenses (like headcount and admin and transceiver installations...)

Where are you guys getting the data to even calculate stuff like this?