YESSSSS!!! Thank you! = )
Trading information (Making Merchant runs profitable)
- Thread starter Shadowfax
- Start date
YESSSSS!!! Thank you! = )
I am a bit out of my element here, because I am an old gronnard only really familiar with CT. TNE and MT don't really exist for me . . . yet.
Yet, what you say here would suggest the existence of such a system like the one that I am proposing.
Also keep in mind that the X-boats and Couriers are only talking about officiall and public (news) services not about private trade and commercial data. I doubt that the imperial government is interested in transmitting data on the price of "Finjgah" (a type of truffle that grows on Efate) [Don't look it up! I just created "Finjgah"to make my point here. Its not canon.], on the X-boat network . . . that is unless the imperial government invests in Finjgah shares. Then they might send it with those Jump-6 Couriers that are mentioned.
= P
Ok, so who is to say that by the time of the TU we will not have a whole new set of "Special Case Exemptions" that will allow us to do in the future what is impossible now.
You know what I am getting at.
Right, so the technology to support this system is already there. Its part of the standard communication arrays that are already on all or most starships. = )
Security considerations and loose ends
Just to address some of the security considerations that were mentioned. Sure, it would be possible to spread viruses through such a system. That is why there is Computer skill and nearly every ship is going to have a couple of computer specialists on board.
The internet today is susceptible to attacks and viruses and yet look how well it works.
This idea is either a system or a service that is part of the existing message system (x-boats or otherwise) in the TU.
Each planetary or system node would have its hierarchy of specialists, checks, protocols and virus software that would monitior the system. There would be backups and redundant systems that would be part of the already existing communications infrastructure.
I am not proposing the elimination of the Xboat system. Perhaps I should make that clear.
The data carried would either be "dead-data" not capable of carrying executable viral code or would be separated from the ship's vital computer system perhaps through a separate physical system or something like a VM-ware. In any case, it would be nearly impossible for data like this to have any impact on the ship's computer or its vital functions.
The data would be filtered, uploaded, re-filtered by the recieving ship, downloaded, refiltered by the recieving "PNN" ("planetary network node") and finally posted and distributed to the interested buyers on-planet with the corresponding queries.
Of course such a system or service would be highly complex and would require a whole host of standards and protocols, but that is just like the internet today, the only difference is that instead of fibre optic cables connecting continents we are talling about faster than light jump capable ships carrying data packets and connecting systems and planets to each other.
Its complex when you step back and look at the whole (just like our internet), but it is really just a conglomeration of do-able smaller parts (just like our internet, but interstellar).
Just to address some of the security considerations that were mentioned. Sure, it would be possible to spread viruses through such a system. That is why there is Computer skill and nearly every ship is going to have a couple of computer specialists on board.
The internet today is susceptible to attacks and viruses and yet look how well it works.
This idea is either a system or a service that is part of the existing message system (x-boats or otherwise) in the TU.
Each planetary or system node would have its hierarchy of specialists, checks, protocols and virus software that would monitior the system. There would be backups and redundant systems that would be part of the already existing communications infrastructure.
I am not proposing the elimination of the Xboat system. Perhaps I should make that clear.
The data carried would either be "dead-data" not capable of carrying executable viral code or would be separated from the ship's vital computer system perhaps through a separate physical system or something like a VM-ware. In any case, it would be nearly impossible for data like this to have any impact on the ship's computer or its vital functions.
The data would be filtered, uploaded, re-filtered by the recieving ship, downloaded, refiltered by the recieving "PNN" ("planetary network node") and finally posted and distributed to the interested buyers on-planet with the corresponding queries.
Of course such a system or service would be highly complex and would require a whole host of standards and protocols, but that is just like the internet today, the only difference is that instead of fibre optic cables connecting continents we are talling about faster than light jump capable ships carrying data packets and connecting systems and planets to each other.
Its complex when you step back and look at the whole (just like our internet), but it is really just a conglomeration of do-able smaller parts (just like our internet, but interstellar).
Shadowfax,
Thread necromancy notwithstanding, your idea still doesn't work.
You're a consensus builder? Fine, the consensus believes your idea doesn't work.
You want to know what others think of your idea? Fine, the others don't believe your idea works.
You want to pull some tech miracle out of you hat? Fine, your idea still doesn't work and for the same operational and economic reasons that have been repeatedly explained to you.
Your idea doesn't work in the Official Traveller Universe. It can work in Your Traveller Universe. And YTU is all that matters.
The horse is dead and it's corpse has been removed. Flogging the dried stains in the road does you no good.
Regards,
Bill
Thread necromancy notwithstanding, your idea still doesn't work.
You're a consensus builder? Fine, the consensus believes your idea doesn't work.
You want to know what others think of your idea? Fine, the others don't believe your idea works.
You want to pull some tech miracle out of you hat? Fine, your idea still doesn't work and for the same operational and economic reasons that have been repeatedly explained to you.
Your idea doesn't work in the Official Traveller Universe. It can work in Your Traveller Universe. And YTU is all that matters.
The horse is dead and it's corpse has been removed. Flogging the dried stains in the road does you no good.
Regards,
Bill
Why are we all of a sudden talking about financing a whole new line of J-5 & J-6 ships?
That has nothing to do with what I was proposing. Just so that its clear. I am not proposing that we replace the X-boat networks or supplement them by building a whole new line of J-5 & J-6 courriers.
I am talking about piggybacking data from the planetary network on all the ships that jump out of the system. The ships are already there and they are jumping somewhere anyway. The idea works just like a sneaker-net.
To be clear: I wasn't talking about building new ships just for the express purpose of sending an information upodate. I am talking about using existing ships.
But there are virtually no J5 and J6 ships in private hands, for exactly the same reason that there are no Mach 2 Business jets to ship UPS packages on as extra luggage - the operating cost of a Mach 2 jet is beyond the budget of private enterprise, so only the Government can afford to build and fly them.
Why do you think it takes a tech miracle? I really don't see that a miracle is necessary. Perhaps I am missing something, but the technology to save the data from an entire planetary network and transport it at light speed with available ships doesn't sound that implausible to me, especially when we are in the "far future" and there is already an x-boat system that does something very similar. Storing data in crytals or someother medium will surely be possible by then there are already countless theories about how it can be done.
I am not proposing the disolution of the existing X-boat/courier network as its described in canon nor am I saying that extra ship's are going to be built or extra jumps are going to be made.
And I think we are still missing each other somehow.
Of course my idea doesn't exist in the official traveller universe. No one wrote about it. I am not authorized to change official traveller history. That is not the issue here, because that is not what I am trying to do. I couldn't do that. I am not authorized to do it.
The question is whether the idea is a plausible one and whether it could fit into the existing CT environment or not. Thats all.
I still don't understand your objections. What is the issue exactly?
Is it the technology? That shouldn't be a problem.
---The necessary protocols and ablility to filter, sort and query exist already.
---It is possible to take all the data from a planetary net and put it on a ship. We could do this now with a bit of work although not as elegantly or efficiently.
---The capacity for data storage and transmission almost exist now and will surely be possible in the far future.
What is the economic objection? The basic idea is a solid one. I can see from your previous economic arguments that the complex system of paying for commerically classified pieces information might not be possible. I'll concede to you on that point if it will help.
---I am not talking about building more X-boats and making more jumps.
---I am not talking about building a parallel fleet of jump5 or jump6 courriers to replace or supplement the X-boat network.
---I am not talking about investing billions in expanding infrastructure. The infrastrucutre is already there. The infrastructure already exists on most planets and in most systems. That is how the X-boat network functions.
---I am talking about piggybacking a informational update from a planetary network on every outgoing ship (they are going somewhere else anyway) as part of standard procedure and paying the carrying ship a small bonus payment for carrying the information.
Ships are not making extra information dedicated jumps they are just getting the info and piggy-backing it as they go about their normal routes or wherever they are jumping to.
---The payment of of a carrying bonus already exists in todays networks, if not in complex the way I am suggesting at the very least in the form of a flat fee that is passed to the buyer.
Is it security?
---There are security problems on the internet today, but that doesn't stop people from using it to do business.
---The data can be stored in the ships data banks, a portion of which can be de-coupled from the ships' vital systems to avoid any Queering or one way or the other.
---There are encryption capabilities that make private information private and although nothing is hackproof just like on the internet in the majority of cases the average hacker will not be smart enough or have the time or dedicated resources to hack into your information.
Does the idea destroy some key element of the game from your point of view?
If you just look at the technology and the economics of the idea you can see that it will work regardless of the concept is applied. It works just like a sneakernet.
The traders moving the information along do not necessarily have to look at or process that information just as your ISP does not look at or process every data packet that comes flying its way over the telephone lines. They don't have to handle it, just transport upload and download.
Think of it like your ISP. Make a product out of it. You accept the terms and you carry the data everyone subscribes and pays their fees. They get the data they want, the news and etc. and you as the captain get a carriers fee that you can use to offset some of your operating costs.
Sorry, you are missing the point. You do not need a J-5 or J-6 ship. You just give every outgoing ship the data packet. They carry to the next system. They are flying there anyway. There is no need to build extra or faster ships. You just give the data packet to every commerically classed vessel and they get a carrying fee for taking the data packet to the next system.
Everyone pays for the system just like everyone pays their ISP for internet service today. Its the same concept with only one difference its not a real-time net it is a sneaker-net.
But a J1/J2 Sneaker Net will be inherently slower than the official J4/J2 X-Boat/Scout Sneaker Net. therefore your 'private data packets' will ALWAYS be older than the 'Official Data Packets'.
Why would anyone pay anything for 2 day old newspapers when you can get a current subscription for the same price?
Your model might work for a universe without an x-boat network, as an alternative, but I see no benefit compared to the X-Boat/Scout network.
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I have read this whole thread, and your model still sounds to me very much like old-fashioned Mail, only without the direct financial incentive to the carriers to participate in the system.
Your proposed data packet is simply provided on some encrypted and signed digital media, and the vetted courier takes it to its next port-of-call, wherever that may be. This could even be done without the courier maintaining a set schedule, so long as the other basic requirements to hold a Mail contract are met (commercial-grade crewing and crew accommodations, installed armament, dedicated carriage space for the contract, et cetera).
Indeed, as you are proposing the system, I see it as a justification for every Trader -- Fat, Free, or otherwise -- to strive to obtain and hold a Mail contract (and enjoy the extra guaranteed income therefrom); every port will welcome news and information from the rest of the galaxy, and it is easy money (@KCr25 per Jump) for the ship owner...
Reviewing this thread, I think what you are running up against is how the Xboat system in the OTU has completely overshadowed the pre-existing-in-canon Mail system to the point that Mail is either deprecated or forgotten.
As I see it, the IISS Communications Branch Xboat system (supported by the IISS CB Scout/Couriers) exists to provide a consistent "backbone" or "trunk" to the otherwise ad hoc Mail system across the 3I, making sure that backwater world are not "off the [information] grid", and that network bottlenecks do not form.
Military C&C will use its own, high-speed, high-tech channels and will be restricted to purely military content. (Of course, with the 3I megacorps being owned and operated by the noble families, that line will be crossed frequently in the interests of "state security": e.g., Margaret & Tukera.)
The upshot being that, as you recognize, financial and market information will need to flow slowly but steadily between worlds, and the Xboat system itself is poorly-suited to this task. OTOH, to revisit a point made earlier in the thread, the Mail system is ideal for your purpose, and could easily be extrapolated out to function in the manner you have sketched, with the added benefit of putting a modest amount of extra cash into many merchant's coffers biweekly... the cost could easily be recovered through taxation, and if entertainment and news packets are included in the irregular Mail drops (you have 5 shipping dtons to work with -- that is a lot of DVD masters), the cost to a planet's population would be negligible.
(Indeed, IMTU, some backwater planets with an adequate tax base maintain packet couriers/liners specifically so they can pull and push Mail off and on the main trade routes that otherwise bypass them.
At a tax rate of Cr1/year/person, a planet with 10 million people on it can easily maintain a courier starship to fetch Mail once a month, and the benefits will far outweigh the costs.)
Ships are coming and going all the time from systems. That means that the Xboat could jump in system and a few hours later the J3 Merchant ship "Spätzunder" could arrive in System, because it jumped a few hours after the J4 and arrived slower it has newer more up to date info than the faster earlier jumping J-4 X-boat. The planet (or System) gets an info update before the next X-boat is due to arrive 24 hours later. Business conditions could have changed in that time.
Everyone pays their ISP to access the net. Spätzunder just gets a standard info carrying fee equivalent to its ship's computer size.
All ships do not jump out of a system at the same time. Nor do they arrive at the same time. So the update provides more current potentially more accurate business information about the markets in the world that the merchant just left.
Do you follow me?
Yup. Thats right. I don't know about what is required for a mail contract, but if its required then I guess the ships would have to meet those criteria.
boomslang;338945 Indeed said:
Yup.
boomslang;338945 Reviewing this thread said:
Yup, that is what I am getting at, although I am not sure that a tax is necessary. Just a fee like we pay a flat rate to our ISP. Its just like the internet really. There are a conglomerate of companies, organizations and governments out there that are providing the infrastructure. There are different licensing deals and fees that people pay for membership and all that jazz, just like with the internet.
Its not like merchanters are going to get rich by doing it and no one is going to set up a dedicated run or anything like that.
I did toy with the idea of there also being some priority "nugget" business information that could be sent along with a data packet. This nugget data could be of special interest to a particualr buyer and seller and therefore be associated with a small bonus "express or timely" carrying fee that would be passed on to the buyer, but that might be to difficult to do, so lets just work with the idea of a flat fee or tax for right now.
Now am I missing something or are people just not understanding what I am trying to say?
I think you may have muddled the conversation a bit over the issues of transmission speed.
While out here IRL, it is the case that I have a widget running on my computer tracking FOREX values in the opposite planetary hemisphere in realtime, we should bear in mind the long commo delays that characterized economic (and military) news in previous centuries here on Terra.
The idea that financial info (and other news) is months out of date was pretty much par for the course for most of the history of civilization; this is what made forecasting and speculation so potentially lucrative or ruinous. Of course, in the exceptional case of a (TU or realworld) megacorp, they do not react to markets, they drive them, and so their organizational economics will not be nearly as volatile and info-sensitive.
The upshot is that a conventional Mail system, using trusted couriers and making a "best effort" to route news and information to every corner of the 3I, supplanted by the Xboat system to keep backwaters from falling too far behind and a classified military system to protect the large-scale controlling interests of the nobles, will reasonably establish an information infrastructure Imperium-wide that both enables and requires good speculation skills by independent merchants... plus, it puts a little more money the the pockets of average ship owners to meet the crushing operational costs that are constantly chasing them.
The only tweak is that it will be more efficient in terms of time and energy to carry the Mail on physical media -- for duplication or transshipment as needed -- than to try and handle it all with high-bandwidth EM transmissions. This, in turn, facilitates good record-keeping, historical trend analysis, and so on.
I contend that everything you are looking for is in fact already in place in the OTU, it is just lying tacitly in low-level background mechanics that MWM/LKW/etc. have not addressed particularly much... although I did discuss it briefly w/MWM a couple of years ago, so I know that he knows the possibilities...
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Do you mean 'supplemented'? (Seems to fit context, but have to make sure)
Only under the MegaTraveller rules can a J3 merchant make a profit on a consistent basis, and even then, it's pretty thin (a dozen credits a ton, or so). Under CT and MGT, a J3 can make a profit under spec by following the odds, rather than a route.
Which means, there is a desperate shortage of J3 shipping.... because it's less profitable than J2 in all modes, and J2 is less profitable than J1 by a small margin in MGT, and a large margin under all other rulesets.
So much more expensive that J2 shipping can not expect to receive financing save by agents of a served government hoping to seize the vessel for late payments, or on subsidy.
J3 is sufficiently more expensive that, except under MGT, there is no chance of making payments... under MGT, the down needed to be able to make payments is going to be about 50%....
There simply won't be J4, J5, or J6 shipping in the price-fixed OTU (for that's the only way the prices would be per parsec), since one can not make a profit even with a fully paid off ship. Under MGT, the price for shipping is high enough that one will get some traffic... but again, not much, because the profit margins will be thin. And financing will be high-down.
Yeah, that works too... although now that I think about it, "augmented" is probably the best choice of words.
But since J3 and J4 shipping is canonical too, and since price-fixing can be easily avoided by anyone (the freighter formally buys the goods from the shipper and has a contract to sell it to the receiver for a fixed sum that just happens to cover his expenses and allow him a reasonable profit), it seems obvious to me (and seemed obvious to professional economist Jim McLean who wrote GT:Far Trader) that the so-called price fixing is simply a game artifact that may work (more or less) for running hand-to-mouth free trader adventure campaigns, but under no circumstances work for charting the overall economic background. It makes no more sense to suppose that the fixed per-jump rules reflect actual Imperial legislation than to suppose that the Imperium actually drafts people into the Imperial Other Service.
It's a game artifact, people. Not "reality". There simply won't be that sort of price-fixing in the OTU that has J4 passenger and freight service.
(And lets not forget that these rules supposedly apply everywhere in the Traveller Universe, so unless you want to believe that Imperial legislation is enforced by everyone from the Aslans to the Zhodani, the explanation wouldn't work even if it worked. But as it doesn't, this last point is moot.)
Hans
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