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Traffic through Class C starports?

Oh, no I disagree about trade volume.

One thing I think that we have learned as a global society in general is that we trade simply because we CAN trade. I think it really comes down a matter of how expensive transport really is. Seriously, who ever thought it would be profitable to ship WATER (heavy) in BOTTLES (even heavier) across the Atlantic Ocean? And yet, Perrier and Evian isn't dramatically more expensive than local "spring water".

With increased mobility, comes an even higher level of NIMBYism. If you can process ore off planet in the asteroids, why should we pollute the planet?

The other consideration is "locality". You're not going to get a lot of regular trade from the Spinward Marches to the central areas of the Imperium, simply because it's too far. But the more exotic items will make the trip. However, local production of finished goods will happen either way.

The crippling barrier to trade in TU right now is the cost of the ships, and in truth, I think they're a bit high. They're designed and costed out as if they're military vessels with very specialized gear. Military vessels have specialized gear because of their unique, and most importantly, LOW VOLUME, requirements.

If there are millions of smaller starships flitting about the Imperium, "cheap Japanese Avionics", and "Russian Reactors" will be everywhere. SOMEONE will commoditize the entire process. 747's are expensive partly because they only have one competitor, but also look at the thousands of "retired" 747s working the air freight industry today. And, serioulsy, used 747s are pretty cheap.

44MCr for a new Free Trader seems pretty high, but eventually someone smart will go out and buy a fleet of 40 year old ships, staff them with their own mechanics, make his own small repair and refit facility, and make some lucrative deals with a local parts suppliers, and all of a sudden those ships are a lot cheaper, and his costs drop like a rock compared to a new Free Trader.

When trade is cheap, trade happens. The whole drive for containerization, modular freight, information systems, and more efficient container ships are focused on driving those costs down.

Okay, I'm mistaken. A new 747 Freighter costs $200M. Yet, somehow it's profitable for them to move boxes packed with styrofoam back and forth across the planet.

I'd argue that the primary mechanism for moving frieght on planet will be spaceships, because of the commodity nature of the hardware. Why not have a high atmosphere rated 150 ton ship for air freight using CG lifters and thrusters? And right now, those don't cost dramatically more than a ship that can work the inner planets as well.

There's no reason at all why two identical planets won't be shipping chocolate to each other.

So, my point is, that we societies trade because it is profitable for them, and it's good for international and interplanetary relations. When trade is cheap, trade happens, and traders want trade to be cheap.
 
Where you been whartung? We could have used your inputs earlier!

Of course, that guy who buys a fleet of 40+ yo Free Traders may also use them as a junkyard for making those cheap parts. Then, when the brand-new air filtration pump is just too expensive, you go to U-spanner-it and get a rebuilt one for half the cost.
 
I agree!
Cheaper ships means cheaper trade. So the Shipyards who create ships in bulk should create cheaper ships right?
 
I agree too that the design system is broken in that it seems a better model of military ships than civilian or commercial ships but that's the system we have. If you change that the way you want the whole dynamic of the game changes big time. Let's not try to rewrite the whole game again ok, just find a workable model that uses as much of the rules already in place and makes a little sense. That means no cheap ships and no cheap(er) interstellar trade.

Maybe the reason ship construction is so uniform is that the Imperial Government is very greedy and protective of it's ship construction, awarding contracts only to those who play ball. A model that other interstellar governments follow for similar reasons.

If you must create a paradigm where civilian and commercial ships cost much less than military ships I'd say do it by making the military ships more expensive. This way you won't be affecting the trade system and bulk of player interest ships. At the worst all you do is reduce the number of military ships to something more manageable and actually allow a chance for piracy and give a good reason for armed merchants again.
 
Hey, "far-trader", are you just trying to keep the little guy down? How much are you getting from the Megas, huh? After all, we KNOW you can't be making a profit with a J2 ship like a Far Trader...
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"Have that trouble maker Fritz88 arrested for disrupting interstellar trade. Make of him an example of Imperial authority!"
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Not yet, Dan, he's volunteered to design the layout of my Fletcher-class destroyer! You can't have him 'till he's done wiv' that!
 
The basic problem, of course, is that were trying to fit a reasonable economic model in to a GAME. We're also trying to leverage a micro-economic model (player trade) into the a macro economic model (The Imperium), or even worse, withOUT a macro economic model (The Imperium just Works...your unprofitable Free Trader is simply an exception).

And combine it with the turmoils of planetary sovereignty. For example, North Koreans aren't starving because we (Terran Residents) lack the technology to grow, process, and ship food to them. Societies form as they want to form, and limit themselves in all sorts of silly ways. That's why you can have a TL 12 planet right "next door" to a TL 15 planet, and you sit there as an external observer wondering why they haven't uplifted to 15.

With regards to the trade issue, let's put a different spin on it then.

The spin is, simply that the ships are what they are. For whatever silly reason, military vessels differ from civilian vessels by the color and style of stickers on their hull rather than any real functional difference. Space is nasty, and we need military grade quality everywhere. Fine. No problem. Ships cost what they cost.

But, then, the other side of the issue then is that traders can not charge their costs to the customers in order to make a profit. And it doesn't have to be insane profit, nobody says that operating as a trader has to be a high margin business, but it does have to be profitable.

So.

The real question, then, is what is keeping the prices paid for trade so low that a generic Free Trader can't turn a profit.

I mean, if you go to a vendor and say I'll ship your product to XYZ for NNNCr, and he says no, he's saying no for one of two reasons. A) is that he can find it someplace else cheaper or B) he doesn't have enough of a market on the other end to justify the expense. If he pays the shippers rates, he can't make enough margin at the destination to justify his costs. For B), you have to question why he's shipping stuff of such low margin, so far away. That leaves A.

Who is it that drives the cost of freight down? Did Fed-Ex open up a kiosk at the starport? Is the freight market cornered by large freight companies with their enormous superfreighters?

China is building 100KTonne super container ships, capable of carrying 8000 TEUS (22KDTon), with an onboard staff of 19. That certainly keeps costs down.

This tells me that Free Traders should be more profitable on the edges of civilization until the market is big enough that one of the Big Box Freight companies comes in and parks a huge, shiny new "ISS WalMart-90210" next to your humble little Free Trader. But in that case, you should be able to charge more for the freight to meet expenses more easily until they show up.

The other side of the coin is simple. Ship builders can't sell unprofitable ships to traders. Period. They won't buy them. If the freight rates don't work, then the ship rates won't work. Something has to give.

So, I think you have to be flexible with the freight rate, ship costs etc. I think the players running a trading campaign have to basically be on the Frontier, where a small operator can leverage the scarcity of service to inflate rates comensurate with operations costs and risks.

For example, many Free Traders are armed. How many armed container ships do we have? Zero. Why is that? They pay taxes to the nations patroling the waters for basic security. If I'm flying my 100KTon freighter along an established trade route between two Hi-Hi TL 15 worlds, it's a Hell of a lot cheaper for the local military to train, equip and patrol the space lanes than to arm the monster freighters.

But, on the Frontier, it's not quite as safe and efficient. More risk, higher insurance, higher costs, higher freight, higher margin (margin <=> risk).
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jame:
Not yet, Dan, he's volunteered to design the layout of my Fletcher-class destroyer! You can't have him 'till he's done wiv' that!
:eek: </font>[/QUOTE]"Very well, once complete we'll put it down as time served and fine him the standard architect fee."
 
Once again, the ugly assertion that a competent crew can't turn a profit in a tramp comes up.

Once again, I say, scrap the air model, even the modern sea model: use the 16-1700's trade model: Speculation.

Even using the least favorable model (Bk2) and Bk7 or MT characters with broker and trader skills (2+ for each), it's hard to not make a profit; can't do this with CT straight due to lack of broker and trader skills.

Now, taking the most liberal system (t20) money rakes in hand over fist once Broker bonuses get high enough.

It's not the game that's broken, it's the trade model people are assuming it fits: 20th C airline. It doesn't fit.

What doesn't fit are modern (20th C) air nor wetnaval trade models. Both are data driven, get what needs to be where there when it needs to be there.

No, the traveller trade models of Bk 2, Bk7, MT, and TNE all seem to be based off of the age of sail... Some contract shipping, port to port... poor to non-extant data on the next port's current conditions and demands, most trade moves by speculation.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
[QB] Once again, the ugly assertion that a competent crew can't turn a profit in a tramp comes up.

Once again, I say, scrap the air model, even the modern sea model: use the 16-1700's trade model.
The problem is that non-speculative trade clearly exists, since rules are given for it.
 
And there is no problem. Non-speculative trade works for free-traders which is what it was designed to do. Not get rich mind you but make the payments. The getting rich is what adventures and speculative trade is for.

What's more it's not so broken either. I can make money without speculative trade in a far-trader, "properly" designed that is, not that fancy model you see in the showports. In fact I think I have a J3 design around here for one of the rule sets that has a shot at breaking even in non-speculative work, if you always fly full capacity.

Anyway the rules aren't so much a trade model as a McGuffin to force the PC's to do something more "fun" once in a while.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aramis:
[QB] Once again, the ugly assertion that a competent crew can't turn a profit in a tramp comes up.

Once again, I say, scrap the air model, even the modern sea model: use the 16-1700's trade model.
The problem is that non-speculative trade clearly exists, since rules are given for it. </font>[/QUOTE]Some non-spec existed under the 1600's model, too...
Under the modern model, 90+% by volume is non-spec Freight
Under the 1600's model, about 30% by volume is non-spec (a rough guess, based upon the few manifests I've read from the period while doing genealogical research).

In fact, historically, hiring space on primarily speculative merchantmen seems to have been the rule for the majority of the dark and middle ages trade. Oh, and the vikings were speculators 1st, raiders second, and invaders somewhere further down the list... most viking "colonies" in occupied lands start out as trading outposts; raiding occured when the trades were not forthcoming (Won't trade, eh, we'll see), not as represented, or inadequate to the needs of the mission (if you set out for wine and wheat, and all you find is beer, steal the wheat and wine that you originally set out in need of). Gee, much like many PC's.

If spec-trade is the driving economic force (even under HG, it is usually better to do spec), it's nice to have that guaranteed "Make the salaries" off of non-spec, and take the usual profits at a somewhat reduced volume, but DRASTICALLY reduced risk on the overall venture..

Likewise, they are unlikely to issue a seizure warrant until you're 60 days overdue, and you can probably bluff your way at man ports routinely for an exit visa if 30-59 days overdue.

So this gives the ability to flex payments a bit.

Likewise, under the modern model, crews have little reason to carry cash, preferring to use negotiable instruments instead, to reduce piracy and hijack risks. Under the earlier model, Captains often carried aboard a huge amount of cash, specifically because this is what allowed them to speculate.

All in all, it's a better fit to the nature of trade as expressed in the rules.
 
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