Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
This seems to be a recurring theme on the internet so I'll ask the question that it evokes. Why do Transhuman Space fans want to impose the setting on everyone else?
Traveller 2.0
- Thread starter Roger Smith Negotiator.
- Start date
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
Jeff said;
gutsy female journalists and football stars called Flash that save the universe. The genre evolves. Science changes. And most importantly the future becomes the now.
Transhuman fans are just reflecting the current fashion for such themes as Vingian Singularity and nanotech. Personally I think there is room for them, just not necessarily in the OTU.
I suppose for the same reason that Traveller is not set in a Galaxy of beautiful but evil Princesses, rocket ships, mud men,
gutsy female journalists and football stars called Flash that save the universe. The genre evolves. Science changes. And most importantly the future becomes the now.
Transhuman fans are just reflecting the current fashion for such themes as Vingian Singularity and nanotech. Personally I think there is room for them, just not necessarily in the OTU.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
TNE introduced many of the elements necessary for a transhumanist game into active Traveller canon, rather than some of it being implied in the background.
I personally don't think that some of the things that games such as Transhuman Space et al will ever come to pass - I think that Traveller has it right that several thousand years from now we'll still be recognisable as human to humans from today - same day to day problems etc.
There'll be a lot of service tech at higher TLs that we can't even imagine, but I don't think people would kill themselves to be uploaded to computer, replace their body with machine components unless no other choice remains etc.
That said, some of the tech that is postulated should be part of a far future setting - biotech, sentient machines, man/machine interfaces etc. - unless there is a reason for the tech to be suppressed...
YMMV etc.
I personally don't think that some of the things that games such as Transhuman Space et al will ever come to pass - I think that Traveller has it right that several thousand years from now we'll still be recognisable as human to humans from today - same day to day problems etc.
There'll be a lot of service tech at higher TLs that we can't even imagine, but I don't think people would kill themselves to be uploaded to computer, replace their body with machine components unless no other choice remains etc.
That said, some of the tech that is postulated should be part of a far future setting - biotech, sentient machines, man/machine interfaces etc. - unless there is a reason for the tech to be suppressed...
YMMV etc.
The key word is "fashion".
Cybernetics and all that kind of fluff were the fad of choice 15 years ago. Now it's nanotech and genetic engineering. Back in the 70s, a different set of assumptions were favoured.
In a decade or so, there will be another set of fads.
The question is: how responsive should Traveller be to this phenomenon?
Personally, I'm quite happy to assume that most of them will be lost in the wash and that humans will still ultimately be humans. All the neato technologies can exist, of course, but they don't take centre stage, if only because they've been around for centuries if not millenia, and their effects on society are old news.
For example: why aren't cybernetics a big deal? Because they are an *obsolete* technology in a society that can grow new limbs and organs. Cybernetics is a technology of the past, not the future, in the Far Future.
Nanotech is not necessarily a big deal either. Essentially, it can be plausibly treated as a special case of bio-technology. It's sole and only relevance to the game is to give a "not in Kansas" feel - but then, I've never actually been to Kansas...
The feel I prefer to go with is "been there, done that". But that's not necessarily the only way to go.
The question is: should the OTU be changed to accomodate such fashions? Another question is: should there be an OTU in the first place? Or should there be more than one "OTU"?
Obviously there is a market for official game settings, so there should be an OTU. More than one is a bit tricky, given the size of Traveller's market. It's OK for DnD to have several different settings in print, but it's a bit awkward for Traveller.
As a result we can't have our cake and eat it too. We can't all have a setting that matches our preferences and prejudices. This is a bummer.
All we can really do is have a setting that will keep the existing fans loyal, while hopefully still being accessible to new people. We can't afford to alienate the existing fans (that is, us!) in an attempt to replace them with new people, because that will simply fail.
So a certain conservatism is probably wise.
---
Of course, there isn't really anything preventing anyone from getting a licence and producing an alternate Traveller setting. You won't make any money out of it, but you wouldn't be any worse off than any of the more or less hobbyist licencees that have existed in the past.
Or you could just adapt one of the GURPS SF settings...
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
Go on then Mike....we're all waiting. Tell us more.
At the chance of sounding self-centered (as your post follwed mine
) I actually have no idea of what Transhuman Space is. My comment about making humans in the likeness of machines was intended to be with reference to one of Frank Herberts sub-threads in Dune. In Dune humanity protected itself from the thinking machines but not itself. In the end it turned people into machines, not in the superficial body-part cyborg sense, but in the sense of spirit. There was the mentat, turning a human into a calculator, the navigators turning themselves into navigation computers, etc. People were made into these things without much choice. The Butlerian Jihad was in part about machines devalueing human life through the application of cold equations to determine who is born and who not. The irony is the Bene Gesserit and other humans picked up where the machines left off.[nanobot rant] From the posts that follow I gather nanobots are a part of Transhuman Space, if so it wouldn't work for me IMTU. Having been exposed to cutting edge nanotechnology for many years the common conception of nanobots is ludicrous. The physical forces at those scale don't allow for any of the mechanistic analogies often made in sci-fi. But if you want anobots, we actually already have self replicating "nanobots" that are far superior and more deadly than those in sci-fi; most people call them viruses. [/nanobot rant]
P
Pickles
Guest
I, too, am a Transhuman Space ignoramus, but I gather it's about humans modified to fit their environments. I find that fairly unlikely. Look at Dubai to see how far we are willing to go to change our environment to suit ourselves.
Granted, the biotech which would enable us to radically alter ourselves is not yet available, but I for one would prefer not to become an 'alien' if it were much easier to simply change the place to suit me. It also seems likely that terraforming is more rapidly achievable than 'human-forming', so the latter might never get off the ground.
And yes, I believe Traveller as a concept survives in part because it does not follow fashion, but provides a fairly spare framework from which to hang YTU.
Granted, the biotech which would enable us to radically alter ourselves is not yet available, but I for one would prefer not to become an 'alien' if it were much easier to simply change the place to suit me. It also seems likely that terraforming is more rapidly achievable than 'human-forming', so the latter might never get off the ground.
And yes, I believe Traveller as a concept survives in part because it does not follow fashion, but provides a fairly spare framework from which to hang YTU.
Originally posted by Vargas:
As an aside, are grognards limited to CT or can we call adherants of MT that as well, given the length of time since it was published?
You can be an adherant of MT, but only after much soul searching and reaching the conclusion that it is best suited to the use of minitures and hexagons.
Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
I wasn't directing my comment at you, Ptah, just at the genre in general. It comes down to being the latest fad or fashion in science fiction.Originally posted by Ptah:
At the chance of sounding self-centered (as your post follwed mine
The Dune reference is interesting and one that I had forgotten. I could easily see the type of breeding programs in Frank herbert's universe happen in a pocket empire after the Virus Era in 1248.
Jeff M. Hopper
SOC-14 1K
I'm thinking about the fad or fashion part of Science Fiction and how it could be applied to Traveller.
Assuming that the game has an established longevity that will continue, I would be in favor of "Tech Updates" every five years or so. A "Tech Update" would detail new or fashionable technologies and science that would add new dimensions to the Traveller universe in game terms. These additions would be created as options for inclusion in Unofficial Traveller Universes that gamers use instead of setting-shattering rewrites of the original Official Traveller Universe. If a gamer likes a particular tech or science approach, then they may reference that particular rule addendum and graft it on to their game. One thing that would be a part of each rules addendum would be an analysis essay detailing how the rules would change the Official Traveller Universe so that the gamer who wishes to include it has some knowledge of the impact of the change on their game.
Come to think of it, if this could be done with some imput from businesses like Scientific American, Popular Science, The Discovery Channel, and The SciFi Network - it could not only expand Traveller's potential player base but could be used as a teaching tool for kids (learn physics, trigonometry, and small unit tactics by playing a short Classic Traveller vactor based space combat).
What say you?
Assuming that the game has an established longevity that will continue, I would be in favor of "Tech Updates" every five years or so. A "Tech Update" would detail new or fashionable technologies and science that would add new dimensions to the Traveller universe in game terms. These additions would be created as options for inclusion in Unofficial Traveller Universes that gamers use instead of setting-shattering rewrites of the original Official Traveller Universe. If a gamer likes a particular tech or science approach, then they may reference that particular rule addendum and graft it on to their game. One thing that would be a part of each rules addendum would be an analysis essay detailing how the rules would change the Official Traveller Universe so that the gamer who wishes to include it has some knowledge of the impact of the change on their game.
Come to think of it, if this could be done with some imput from businesses like Scientific American, Popular Science, The Discovery Channel, and The SciFi Network - it could not only expand Traveller's potential player base but could be used as a teaching tool for kids (learn physics, trigonometry, and small unit tactics by playing a short Classic Traveller vactor based space combat).
What say you?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Sounds like a good idea.
Sort of like the supplements to FF&S that were planned...
Sort of like the supplements to FF&S that were planned...
Commander Drax
SOC-12
Traveller isn't about technology, which is why it isnt't central to the game, it's about pushing the 'human' limits, being more than you were when you started out and overcoming any limitations you might have, not through implants and machine additions, but through character development. Most of all it's about story telling...
Personally I think your idea is a good one, updates every five years to keep up with new developments, that can add colour to the traveller background, but at the end of the day, that's all it is, background... The story is where it's at...
Personally I think your idea is a good one, updates every five years to keep up with new developments, that can add colour to the traveller background, but at the end of the day, that's all it is, background... The story is where it's at...
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
So, LBBs with annual tech "updates"? Sounds a lot like the old Britannica Encyclopedia with its "Annuals". You buy Brittanica, and subscribe to the annuals, and get info on all the cutting edge tech, history, etc. I like that idea!
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Oh, BTW, Roger, have you seen any of the threads about ProtoTraveller? Similar lines of thought....
