Traveller Developer's Pack

[Vile]

One question. What if someone (or a collective of folk) put out OTU material free in SR, but also wanted to release items commercially under the TTL or OGL (strictly non-OTU) as well?

Very good question, that man ...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

It means you can link your product to a line that is selling well, and make money from it. That means a great deal.

It means I can link it to a set of rules that I don't particularly like (sorry, but it's true - I use a mixture of CT, MT and T4, and nothing I've seen in Mongoose Traveller comes close).

If you truly believe that Traveller _is_ the OTU, then I will grant you that. But I think you are in the minority.

CT is Traveller. So is MT. So are TNE, T4, GT and T20 (and others). Do they all use the same rules? No. There are even Traveller novels and short stories. What makes all these Traveller? The OTU.

>>>The first problem is that your initial rules were so draconian,

Okay, let's get real, they really weren't.

They didn't allow us to reference the OTU *at all*.

Think of it this way; how much of what you produce for Traveller absolutely relies on the OTU? Let's talk specifics, I am happy to listen.

100%. Some of it is original (eg new ship designs), but it's all based on the OTU (eg new *Solomani* ship designs).

Okay, let me ask you this. Why do they have to charge postage? In this day and age, why?

Some people have a slow - or no - internet connection. Others need donations to pay for websites.

Now we have requests for use of the OTU in a fan-based capacity. On the surface, we have no problems with this at all - never have done, never will. Our only real concern is how allowing this affects the the TLL and OGL projects. One has to complement the other.

I'd argue that it's because fans have had the freedom to use the OTU that Traveller is still so popular 30 years later, so it's important that you get this right.

I completely understand your need to protect your investment and IP, but at the same time RPGs require creativity and collaboration by fans, and we need to be able to do that without worrying about lawyers kicking the door down...

 

[tbeard1999]

MongooseMatt,

Ok, maybe I should give you my example:...

FWIW, my review of the Mongoose Fair Use Policy indicates that your website would be fine. You cannot use the Traveller logo, but everything else is fine. Of course, you'll have to adhere to the requirements of the Fair Use Policy -- you can't make money off it, you have to put the disclaimers on it, new rules on your site must be Open Content, etc. These requirements don't strike me a terribly burdensome, so I think that you can do it.

In the alternative, you can hire a lawyer to advise you as to whether your website infringes Mongoose/FFE IP. Obviously, you probably wouldn't do this, but this points out the value of the Fair Use Policy, Traveller Logo License and Open Gaming License. They allow you to avoid having to hire a lawyer to determine if you can do something and they allow Mongoose and FFE to avoid paying a lawyer to review every request for permission.

Guys, as a business lawyer, I think that this is a Good Deal. I don't think that anyone whose read my posts over the last year can call me a Mongoose fanboy. But as a professional and a gamer, I approve of the policy.

Caveat -- I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. This is not intended to be legal advice or to create an attorney/client relationship. Heck, I could have found this stuff inside a stale Cracker Jacks box from a 1952 time capsule. So pay a lawyer for advice that you intend to rely on.

 

[rust]

I also think it is a very good deal, and it may become an even better one.

From the Mongoose forum:

Hi guys,

Okay, just had a very long conversation with Marc, as we try to hammer out
what is best for Traveller and best for its fans. We do have a working plan,
but it is going to take a short while setting it to words. However, if we can
find the language to do everything we want to do, then you might well end
up getting something a great deal more than you expected

Stay tuned. . .
_________________
Matthew Sprange

So, really no reason to get nervous here, I think.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Guys, as a business lawyer, I think that this is a Good Deal. I don't think that anyone whose read my posts over the last year can call me a Mongoose fanboy. But as a professional and a gamer, I approve of the policy.

Oh, for the people it's aimed at, I'm sure you're right. It just needs tweaking to rescue the people who fell through the cracks.

 

[captainjack]

So. . . you want me to grease you up. . ?

Only if you make no money off it at all......which shouldn't be hard.

Unless, I suppose, he has a Tattoo of the Traveller Logo (prominantly displayed on his front cover...or...ummmm. "Back cover"....in which case it's a bit harder to know what your license covers...Ty ? Any help here ?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I really didn't need that image...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I've already emailed Marc about it [the calendar], and I'll let everyone know his decision.

The provisional answer is, "Don't panic".

 

[tbeard1999]

Oh, for the people it's aimed at, I'm sure you're right. It just needs tweaking to rescue the people who fell through the cracks.

It's obvious that the Mongoose policy evolved over time. While this is often the best use of scarce resources (like time and money), the policy that results is often rougher and has more gaps, redundancies, etc., than a comprehensive policy built from the ground up. I suspect that the new Mongoose policy will be satisfactory to most gamers.

 

[atpollard]

I completely understand your need to protect your investment and IP, but at the same time RPGs require creativity and collaboration by fans, and we need to be able to do that without worrying about lawyers kicking the door down...

Technically, I think that most lawyers get other people to actually kick down the doors.
Lawyers mostly talk, and write using arcane phrases.

If I am following this correctly, the OGL covers all of the 'LBB 1-3 type stuff' in Mongoose Traveller and all of that is fair game without the need for any special permission.

The OTU stuff would be all of the Moot, Strephon, Rebellion, Spinward Marches, Virus, (and so on) type of stuff, which can still be used for free 'publications' with a "this isn't official" disclaimer.

Only the OTU stuff "For Sale" is not automatically free for the taking, you need to ask Mongoose's Permission.

That really doesn't seem such a bad deal, especially since Mongoose has agreed to work with people on specific projects/problems.

Just my 2 cents. (and I never even THOUGHT of becoming a lawyer).

 

[tbeard1999]

You know, we've come a long way. As an Old One who remembers roleplaying in the Antedilluvian Era (the late 1970s), I recall when the joke was that TSR stood for "They Sue Regularly". In those days, TSR (and other game companies) took a dim view towards any use of their trademarks. Some law firm must've made a fortune firing off cease and desist letters for TSR.

Nowadays, we're debating with game companies over how much of their intellectual property they should let us use for free.

It's truly the age of the consumer...

 

[tbeard1999]

Technically, I think that most lawyers get other people to actually kick down the doors.
Lawyers mostly talk, and write using arcane phrases.

The Godfather said that a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more than a thousand men with guns. Good to know we're held in high esteem...

If I am following this correctly, the OGL covers all of the 'LBB 1-3 type stuff' in Mongoose Traveller and all of that is fair game without the need for any special permission.

Mongoose is apparently going to revise their approach so it will be simpler and (probably) more player-friendly. However, the OGL did not exactly cover the "LBB1-3 type stuff". Rather, it covers the material in the SRD (excluding "Product Identity", which pretty much means the name "Traveller" as far as I can tell). So, Mongoose will not object to the use of the material in the SRD (assuming you comply with the terms of the OGL).

The OTU stuff would be all of the Moot, Strephon, Rebellion, Spinward Marches, Virus, (and so on) type of stuff,

I think that this is the kind of material that Mongoose/FFE wants to protect (though it's just speculation on my part). I think that part of the reason for the adverse reaction of some folks is that they did not provide any guidance as to what things were "directly connected" to the OTU. From various statements, I get the sense that Mongoose/FFE's intent was much more limited than the fair use policy implied. In any case, I think that they will clear this up with their new policy.

which can still be used for free 'publications' with a "this isn't official" disclaimer.

Yes. The uncertainty seems to have arisen because the Traveller Logo License prohibited use of any OTU material. However, this was only on materials that used the logo. While counterintuitive, it was not a broad prohibition of any use of OTU material. The Fair Use Policy allowed such material to be used on non-commercial products (subject to certain requirements).

Anyhow, the system seems to have worked -- the issue was raised and they're trying to address it. That bodes well, I think.

That really doesn't seem such a bad deal, especially since Mongoose has agreed to work with people on specific projects/problems.

Well, it seems clear to me (whatever my complaints with the MGT game system) that Mongoose is making a very serious good faith effort to work with the fanbase. And I applaud them for that.

Just my 2 cents. (and I never even THOUGHT of becoming a lawyer).

 

[atpollard]

The Godfather said that a lawyer with a briefcase could steal more than a thousand men with guns. Good to know we're held in high esteem...

In the land development business, I've found that 'your lawyer' can easily be worth his weight in gold ($400+ per hour and worth every penny); it's alway's 'thier lawyer' that causes all the problems.

 

[Spinward Scout]

This is not an official Traveller post

FWIW, my review of the Mongoose Fair Use Policy indicates that your website would be fine. You cannot use the Traveller logo, but everything else is fine. Of course, you'll have to adhere to the requirements of the Fair Use Policy -- you can't make money off it, you have to put the disclaimers on it, new rules on your site must be Open Content, etc. These requirements don't strike me a terribly burdensome, so I think that you can do it.

Thanks tbeard1999 - that explains things alot! I was about ready to brand Mongoose Traveller as Monger Traveller with the 2 digit abbreviation of T$.

o:

I think it's the difference between not being able to use it at all and not being able to claim that it's Traveller that I was misunderstanding. It just wasn't clarified or not clear enough to be understood by an idiot like me - and as someone said, the OTU isn't 'defined'. At this point, neither is Open Gaming Content for Traveller.

So, it leaves me wondering one thing only. Let's say I put all of that up on a web page. I have to specifically state that it is not an official Traveller web page, correct? Can I use the name Traveller in the title of the web page or is that out of bounds? i.e. What is considered 'The Traveller Logo'?

Thanks again and where do I send the check?



Spinward Scout

 

[atpollard]

i.e. What is considered 'The Traveller Logo'?

Hey! I know the answer to that one.

"The Traveller Logo" is the EXACT graphic image(s) that is(are) distributed with the Traveller Logo License (like the word 'Coke' exactly as it is printed on a Coke can). You (and anyone else) are not allowed to create a slightly different 'logo' and claim that is is not the same as the Registered Trademark.

 

[tbeard1999]

Thanks tbeard1999 - that explains things alot! ...
So, it leaves me wondering one thing only. Let's say I put all of that up on a web page. I have to specifically state that it is not an official Traveller web page, correct? Can I use the name Traveller in the title of the web page or is that out of bounds? i.e. What is considered 'The Traveller Logo'?

The Traveller Logo is the logo that's included in the Developer's Pack and that is a trademark of Mongoose (or FFE).

As far as disclaimers and the like, I suggest that you wait for the forthcoming revised Fair Use Policy, as it appears that the previous Fair Use Policy has been deleted from their website.

 

[tbeard1999]

Hey! I know the answer to that one.

"The Traveller Logo" is the EXACT graphic image(s) that is(are) distributed with the Traveller Logo License (like the word 'Coke' exactly as it is printed on a Coke can). You (and anyone else) are not allowed to create a slightly different 'logo' and claim that is is not the same as the Registered Trademark.

You are correct, sir, on both counts. A "deceptively similar" logo would infringe Mongoose/FFE's trademark.

 

[Spinward Scout]

So, in other words, you can't make it look like it's official Traveller.

 

[atpollard]

So, in other words, you can't make it look like it's official Traveller.

Not under the SRD/OGL/TLL/Fair Use rules open to all without discrimination.

However you COULD contact Mongoose directly about getting a license to use part of the 'Traveller look' and/or the Logo under slightly modified conditions. It might even be free depending on how simple the change is and what it is intended for [clearly Mongoose and Marc have both expressed a desire to cut Stellar Reaches some slack - as an example].

In any event, I would probably do 'nothing' until all of the dust settles, since all of the 'official' rules seem to be in a state of flux at the moment.

Just my free advice
(and worth every penny)

 

[Andrew Boulton]

The provisional answer is, "Don't panic".

Marc has now confirmed that we're free to carry on with the calendar.

I have *no idea* how this relates to the larger Mongoose question.