Traveller Developer's Pack

[Spinward Scout]

Legalese Beta-test.



Hey wait a minute - didn't Traveller steal from all of the great Sci-Fi authors to begin with? Azimov, Anderson, Norton, et alors?

I wonder if Isaac Azimov's and Andre Norton's estate would like their cut. And Poul Anderson was still alive and kicking at a Chicago Sci-Fi convention two or three years ago. I believe one of the Traveller books even cites them and others as "good reading material". I wonder if Mongoose would back the F up if someone started writing SciFi authors, letting them know that Traveller's been ripping them off all of these years.

:devil:

 

[far-trader]

Legalese Beta-test.

Yes, kind of. And worse, it's being "playtested" by users (most) without any (or limited) legal knowledge and experience.

It's almost funny. Almost... :nonono:

 

[Spinward Scout]

Yes, kind of. And worse, it's being "playtested" by users (most) without any (or limited) legal knowledge and experience.

It's almost funny. Almost... :nonono:

Ahhh memories...

The good old days of Online Banking Tech Support. Listening to someone screaming and yelling on the phone to a Tech when they screwed up their bank account because they barely knew how to turn a computer on to begin with.

Yup - it's a Beta Test.

 

[Antony]

Well I am not going to be posting any more updates to the Banners section of my site until I can get a nice clear "understandable" statement about it since the stuff in this section can be said to relate to the OTU (Banners is in charted space) and has mentions of Aslan, Solomani etc, plus equipment stats etc, and worst I did not use the Mongoose rules (its a TNE site). I posted some queries to the Mongoos boards yesterday so am waiting with baited breath.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Amen to that. Mongoose had to have known this was going to come up. They can not be that dense. So this means they elected to have this mess by choice.

Daniel

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they *are* that dense

They are trying to fix it.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Guys, we opened up the entire rules system, allowed people to not only produce material with the official Traveller logo, but to potentially make money from it as well.

Now people want to not only produce material for the OTU (no issues with that, it is part of the hobby), but publish it too.

This creates some potential problems with an Open system. And it has never been done before - when WotC opened D20, they did not make any provision for people to publish Forgotten Realms material. Of course they wouldn't. When we Opened RuneQuest, there were no requests for Glorantha to follow suit.

Think of it as publishing material (and web sites _are_ publishing) for Babylon 5, say, or Terminator.

At the same time, we have done everything we could to encourage fan-created material in the past. We are not looking to shut down anyone's enjoyment, but combining Open Content with the ability to publish material for a closed setting has never been done before. This is new ground.

We are currently talking to several concerned people with interests in this, finding out exactly what their issues are, and how best to resolve them for the benefit of all. In lieu of a magic wand, I feel this is the best way to proceed.

Ultimately, if you think that this approach is 'dense' and that you can do a better job, you are welcome to scratch the money together and get a licence to do so yourself. The TLL and OGL are rigidly defined, and there are no arguments about their use. The point of contention is how to handle those who want to publish (not just produce) OTU material.

As for those who think that any attempt to de-fracture the Traveller base is doomed, I would point out that if things continue as they are (and there is no reason to think they won't), Traveller will be the second best-selling RPG line this year. We are doing _something_ right at least.

Seriously guys, we are trying to do what is right for everyone, while creating something that will stand for at least the next ten years, while increasing the value of Marc's property.

Give us a sodding break. . .

 

[Vile]

Give us a sodding break. . .

Can't be done. Tradition, you know ... these are the CotI boards, people here are regularly beaten to death with LBBs (and none of that second-edition High Guard rubbish, either!).

Your accountants will tell you the real story, I'm sure!

 

[Thunderbolt]

As for those who think that any attempt to de-fracture the Traveller base is doomed, I would point out that if things continue as they are (and there is no reason to think they won't), Traveller will be the second best-selling RPG line this year. We are doing _something_ right at least.

That is good news, I'm picking up my Spinward Marches tomorrow, adding to the impetus.

I may have missed the relevant memo, I'm not clear if the term 'de-fracture' refers to fragmentation of the mythos, that is the classic OTU, or the proliferation of Traveller game systems available, which the imminent (possibly) T5 release can only add to, or both.

 

[far-trader]

Give us a sodding break. . .

Can't be done. Tradition, you know ... these are the CotI boards, people here are regularly beaten to death with LBBs (and none of that second-edition High Guard rubbish, either!).

LOL

I'm not so kind, no soft LBB for me, I hammer them with my big weighty hardback THE Traveller Book :smirk:

But seriously...

Matt, as much as I see problems I do see the efforts being made to fix them and can only imagine the due diligence that went into avoiding who knows how many more by hard work. If I complain it is more of a squeaky wheel wanting grease than of a toss the baby out with the dirty bathwater nature. Or at least it is so intended. And the kudos for the good works goes (too much perhaps) unstated.

I like your ideals and goals. I'm just nervous about some of the (perceived?) requirements, confusion and such. And I wonder if some of them may be untenable by the involvement of lawyers.

 

[MongooseMatt]

If I complain it is more of a squeaky wheel wanting grease than of a toss the baby out with the dirty bathwater nature.

So. . . you want me to grease you up. . ?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Guys, we opened up the entire rules system, allowed people to not only produce material with the official Traveller logo, but to potentially make money from it as well.

Now people want to not only produce material for the OTU (no issues with that, it is part of the hobby), but publish it too.

AFAICT, all putting the Mongoose Traveller logo on the cover means is...our book has the Mongoose Traveller logo on the cover. It doesn't change what we can put *inside* it, and it certainly doesn't mean we can publish anything that's Traveller in any meaningful way because we're forbidden from mentioning the OTU. That's like publishing a Star Trek book without mentioning anything that's ever appeared in Star Trek.

The point of contention is how to handle those who want to publish (not just produce) OTU material.

The first problem is that your initial rules were so draconian, and the current ones are so confusing, that nobody knows what they can and can't do, and they're very worried.

The other problem is that you're looking at it in a very black and white way. First, just because someone uses the OTU doesn't mean they expect (or want) their work to be considered canon. Ironically, it's the *official* products (*cough*DGP*cough*) that cause confusion, not the fan stuff. Second, sometimes people have to charge a small fee (eg to cover postage), but that doesn't mean they're trying to make money out of Traveller.

We all want to follow the rules, but if you make them too strict or confusing many people will either ignore them or be driven away.

 

[tbeard1999]

We all want to follow the rules, but if you make them too strict or confusing many people will either ignore them or be driven away.

I just reviewed the "Traveller Logo License v1b". Here are my comments:

0. Understand that this is an agreement between you and Mongoose. In essence, Mongoose is giving you the right to use the Traveller logo -- something you otherwise could not legally use. In exchange, you agree to various conditions and limits on the use of the logo. But you are *not* having to pay any money to use the logo, so you're getting a significant benefit here. In addition, this is a "default" agreement. Nothing would preclude Mongoose and FFE from agreeing to other terms. But that would be a separate agreement or written modification of this agreement and would be negotiated by the parties.

1. Mongoose can cancel the license at any time and require remaining stock to be destroyed. While this might seem draconian, the fact is that Mongoose has a legitimate interest in protecting the mark. You'll note that my previous suggestion envisioned a "cancellable at will" license, so obviously I think it's reasonable. Anyone who intends to invest a lot of money and effort in a Traveller product might want to get a more definitive agreement with Mongoose as to the license. However, this can be costly for a company. Ideally, they'll talk to their lawyer -- and that's not cheap. So you should be mindful of the fact that you're asking them to incur legal costs and consider whether you should offer some benefit to them to compensate for those costs.

2. The license can be modified at any time by Mongoose. Again, a seemingly draconian power, but it's really no big deal. Since they can cancel the license at will, the ability to modify it doesn't really add any additional power in the real world.

3. There are various requirements for how the logo is to be displayed. Very typical in these kinds of agreements.

4. You cannot duplicate (or replace) the character generation mechanics. Comment--I can certainly understand why Mongoose wouldn't want to give you a free license to use the Traveller logo in a game that attempts to *replace* MGT.

5. You cannot change established terminology for characteristics, world attributes (size, hydrographics, etc.) Comment--I can understand why Mongoose wouldn't want to give you a free license to use the Traveller logo in a game that attempts to *replace* MGT.

6. You are precluded from using certain established Traveller names -- "High Guard", "Mercenary", etc. Comment--As these titles are a key part of the value in the Traveller license, Mongoose has a legitimate interest in keeping others from using them in a Traveller product. After all, they *paid* for the right to use these titles.

7. You cannot duplicate classic Traveller's "look and feel". Comment--As the look of CT books are valuable elements of the Traveller license, I can certainly understand why Mongoose wouldn't want to give you a free license to use the Traveller logo in a game that uses the same look.

8. You agree to not use the term "Original Traveller Universe" in your product. Apparently, Mongoose intends to use this mark to identify certain types of products. <shrug> Don't see a problem with this myself.

9. You're required to include various sentences identifying owners of the trademark, etc. I see no problem here.

10. You agree not to use the logos on materials that MM and Mongoose deem inappropriate -- sexually explicit stuff, extremely violent, racist stuff, etc. I see no problem -- licensors commonly impose restrictions on the use of their marks and IP. In fact, I'd suspect that Mongoose agreed to those same terms in its licensing agreement with FFE.

11. You agree not to use "...any material directly connected to the Original Traveller Universe setting..." I find this sentence to be rather vague. I think that I understand the intent, but I think that it should be tightened up. At the very least, include some examples of materials that are "directly connected" to the OTU. If you are unsure, I suggest that you ask Mongoose if they consider the material in question to be "directly connected" to the OTU. If they get a lot of (reasonable) questions, they'll probably clarify the language.

In my opinion, the Logo license is reasonable, fair and pretty clear. In essence, you get to use the Traveller logo for free, if you agree to abide by a few restrictions.

Caveat -- I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. This is not intended to be legal advice or to create an attorney/client relationship. Heck, I could be hallucinating all this stuff. So pay a lawyer for advice that you intend to rely on.

 

[MongooseMatt]

>>>AFAICT, all putting the Mongoose Traveller logo on the cover means is...our book has the Mongoose Traveller logo on the cover.

It means you can link your product to a line that is selling well, and make money from it. That means a great deal.

>>>It doesn't change what we can put *inside* it, and it certainly doesn't mean we can publish anything that's Traveller in any meaningful way because we're forbidden from mentioning the OTU. That's like publishing a Star Trek book without mentioning anything that's ever appeared in Star Trek.

If you truly believe that Traveller _is_ the OTU, then I will grant you that. But I think you are in the minority.

>>>The first problem is that your initial rules were so draconian,

Okay, let's get real, they really weren't. They allowed you to do pretty much anything you wanted with Traveller, and put your work in pretty much any venue, all with the official logo (and I am sorry if you don't think that is worth anything, but it is a Big Deal).

Think of it this way; how much of what you produce for Traveller absolutely relies on the OTU? Let's talk specifics, I am happy to listen.

>>>The other problem is that you're looking at it in a very black and white way.

Of course we are - we are responsible for almost the entire brand of Traveller, and have to define a set of rules that can be applied to everyone, without exception.

>>>Second, sometimes people have to charge a small fee (eg to cover postage), but that doesn't mean they're trying to make money out of Traveller.

Okay, let me ask you this. Why do they have to charge postage? In this day and age, why?

>>>We all want to follow the rules, but if you make them too strict or confusing many people will either ignore them or be driven away.

That is the matter being discussed. On the one hand, we have the TLL and OGL that define what can and cannot be done with Traveller in an official capacity. That is clear and well-defined.

Now we have requests for use of the OTU in a fan-based capacity. On the surface, we have no problems with this at all - never have done, never will. Our only real concern is how allowing this affects the the TLL and OGL projects. One has to complement the other.

 

[tbeard1999]

We all want to follow the rules, but if you make them too strict or confusing many people will either ignore them or be driven away.

Another comment. In reality, intellectual properly law is very complex. A certain amount of hassle is unavaoidable. In addition, the law does not really envision free licensing agreements that are granted almost automatically, so a fair amount of additional effort is required to accomplish this. Finally, trademark owners have typically spent a lot of money building or licensing a mark. There are numerous ways that they can inadvertently lose that value, or even accidentally abandon the mark. They are required to do a lot of things to protect their IP.

So cut Mongoose some slack here. They are not to blame because this is a complex area of the law. Nor should any reasonable person blame them for protecting the value of something that they have paid good money for.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I just reviewed the "Traveller Logo License v1b".

Excellent analysis.

Even if it was a hallucination.

 

[tbeard1999]

AFAICT, all putting the Mongoose Traveller logo on the cover means is...our book has the Mongoose Traveller logo on the cover.

It means you can link your product to a line that is selling well, and make money from it. That means a great deal.

It does. And it should be noted that almost every other business does not make a habit of licensing their marks for free.

>>>It doesn't change what we can put *inside* it, and it certainly doesn't mean we can publish anything that's Traveller in any meaningful way because we're forbidden from mentioning the OTU. That's like publishing a Star Trek book without mentioning anything that's ever appeared in Star Trek.

If you truly believe that Traveller _is_ the OTU, then I will grant you that. But I think you are in the minority.

I don't think that Andrew's comparison is apt. An RPG like Traveller is really two distinct things -- a game system and a setting/milleu, unlike a Star Trek novel, which is a setting only.

I think that Mongoose and FFE have a very reasonable interest in protecting the integrity of their setting while allowing folks to make use of the game mechanics.

In addition, I think that a game company has a strong interest in making a profit from the setting that they paid money to license and in not giving folks free use of the trademark in for-profit activities using that same setting. If someone wants to use the official Traveller setting in a for-profit activity, seems to me that they should pay for the privilege. After all, Mongoose, Steve Jackson Games, etc., presumably paid for that privilege.

Now, I happen to agree that the license is vague in its definition of "directly connected" to the OTU. Well, technically, there is no definition, but you get my point. I suggest that you clarify that definition. Feel free to PM me with examples of "directly connected" and I'll suggest a revision that you can run by your attorney (as a Traveller player, I might be better able to grasp what you're getting at than an attorney who is not a gamer).

And for Andrew, I imagine that the reason that Mongoose prohibits *any* money changing hands is that it's a convenient, bright-line test. As anyone has used ebay can attest, "postage and handling" can be used to disguise profit.

 

[tbeard1999]

So I've reviewed the MGT Fair Use Policy, the Open Game License and the Traveller Logo License, and here's my rundown:

1. If you use the Traveller Logo, you must abide by all the terms and conditions noted in my previous post on the Traveller Logo license. In particular, you may not use material "directly connected" to the Original Traveller Universe, nor may you replicate or replace certain mechanics (characteristics generation in chargen, most importantly). You may also use material licensed to you by the OGL.

2. If you do not use the Traveller Logo, you may still use the OGL licensed material. The OGL does not prohibit the use of material "directly connected" to the OTU, although such material may not be Open Game Content and may be protected by copyright and trademark law.

3. If you do not use the Traveller Logo, you may use OTU materials, but not the Traveller Logo, under the Mongoose Fair Use Policy. Here are the important terms:

--Non-commercial means you can't receive anything of value for the product, including reimbursement for postage, printing costs, etc. This effectively means that supplements will be electronic documents, unless the author is a real philanthropist.

--You must respect various commonsense rules and attach disclaimers

--"Current Traveller Rules" produced with this material becomes Open Content.

4. If you do not use the Traveller Logo and choose not to take advantage of the OGL, you are constrained by normal copyright laws, which may or may not preclude use of materials "directly connected" with the OTU.

Caveat -- I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. This is not intended to be legal advice or to create an attorney/client relationship. Heck, this could have been sent to me in a vision from the Thoth the Atlantean. So pay a lawyer for advice that you intend to rely on.

 

[tbeard1999]

This rule is what makes it not ok to post anything on the Internet that has OTU material in it. This would include a blog. Talking about your character made with Mongoose Traveller - Fine as long as the rules part is declared Open Content. Talking about how your character landed on Regina and engaged Dulinor's Marine regiment in BattleDress - Not Fine. This is how I'm reading it. A couple of other posts on this thread from people who contacted Mongoose seem to say the same thing.

Spinward Scout, I think you're reading this wrong. The Mongoose Fair Use Policy clearly states that you can use OTU material (though not the Traveller logo) so long as you comply with a few reasonable request *and* so long as you receive no compensation for your work. Compensation is defined very broadly and includes reimbursement for postage.

The language you quoted ("OTU material (any names, places, concepts, etc) that can be related to the OTU in any way can never be made Open.") merely clarifies that you cannot convert OTU material into Open Game Content by designating it as such. The critical point here is that the Fair Use Policy allows you to use OTU material even though such material is not Open Game Content.

The Fair Use Policy is a "safe harbor" -- it identifies conditions under which uses of OTU material will *not* be challenged by Mongoose. You can ignore the Fair Use Policy if you wish, but then copyright and trademark law will determine if you've infringed.

So here's my take on the policies:

Non-commercial products -- you can use OTU material (but not the Traveller Logo) per the Fair Use Policy if you comply with its requirements. If you refuse to take advantage of the Fair Use Policy, then copyright and trademark law will determine if you infringe Mongoose/FFE's intellectual property.

Commercial products -- you can use the Traveller Logo, but you cannot take advantage of the Fair Use Policy. You agree not to use material "directly connected" with the OTU. If you use the Traveller Logo, you must comply with the Traveller Logo License.

If you have a commercial product and choose not to use the Traveller Logo, copyright and trademark law will determine if you infringe Mongoose/FFE's IP.

Either commercial or non-commercial products can choose to take advantage of the Open Game License. This is another "safe harbor" -- it identifies conditions under which uses of "Open Game Content" will *not* be challenged by Mongoose.

Caveat -- I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. This is not intended to be legal advice or to create an attorney/client relationship. Heck, I could have found this in an ancient copy of The Necronomicon bound in human flesh. So pay a lawyer for advice that you intend to rely on.

 

[Klaus]

This is all becoming clearer.

One question. What if someone (or a collective of folk) put out OTU material free in SR, but also wanted to release items commercially under the TTL or OGL (strictly non-OTU) as well?

Would there have to be two personas, one for the free OTU stuff and a separate one for the commercial non-OTU stuff? So like 2 different websites, say, to differentiate?

 

[Spinward Scout]

MongooseMatt,

Ok, maybe I should give you my example:

Wanted to make a campaign I could post on the internet (for free) which is a trip around the Regina subsector (the Original subsector) similar to The Traveller Adventure but based around a Detached Scout ship. Campaign would include all worlds of the subsector (modifying a few things here or there for my tastes - such as calling a world Regina Prime instead of Regina or something), the Third Imperium, Grandfather's pocket universe, the Zhodani, Vargr, a sneaky Hiver, the Imperial Navy, Merchants, other assorted aliens - basically making a nice puzzle and race to stop someone from re-opening the pocket universe (how? I hadn't gotten that far yet). Artwork if I could get ahold of any for free. I was going to make a few adventures for different worlds to tie the plot points together, a couple of short adventures or encounters just for fun (like finding a beaker monkey on board while in JumpSpace), plus allow the option of using other already published adventures during the campaign (basically: "insert Adventure X here if you want to/already own it" type of thing - not including it with the campaign .pdf, tho). A quintessential Detached Scout campaign. At one point I even thought about asking on the board if anyone wanted to contribute ideas or characters to it. Then when it's finished, wrap it all up in a .pdf file and post it to the file library or wherever - for anybody to use if they wanted. It would be my own original plotline based in the OTU Traveller universe starting in year 1111 after the Fifth Frontier War. It's almost ALL OTU except for what I would create or adapt with very little rules system information. You'd have to own one of the rule books just to use it. As with any other adventure or campaign.

Basically what The Traveller Adventure did for Merchants, I wanted to do for Detached Scouts.

A grand scheme, but right now just an example. How would this hold up with the Fair Use Policy or under the OGL? I can elaborate if you'd like.

Spinward Scout