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Traveller Online - NWN2 Toolset provides opportunity

Hello All,

This is my first time in this community, but i will admit having played the basic set of Traveller back in the late 70's and early 80's, still owning them and about 20 or so other 5"x8" books. Even bought the Megatraveller release in the hopes of seeing advancements.

Okay then, down to the point of my entry here. For the past 5+ years i've been participating in some rather large Neverwinter Nights (NWN) projects. I was never really satisfied with NWN, and thus was not encouraged to communicate outside of that community about the virtues and functionality of the toolset.

However, things have changed. NWN2 was released in October of 2006. NWN2 offers far better graphics and allows for more with the toolset. In fact, i'm reasonably confident that with a good amount of interested people, Traveller Basic can be recreated with it, and members here can play together in multiplayer roleplaying sessions utilizing the graphic engine of NWN2.

For those who are not familiar with NWN2, it is a newer, far better, version of NWN. NWN is a D&D -based computer game that allows you to create your own modules and host them. While still in its infancy, NWN2 shows great promise and the community is taking great strides in overcoming obstacles.

At first glance, NWN2 looks to be just another Fantasy CRPG, with the option of multiplay. Further inspection, however, presents a utility called a DMclient, which allows one person to host the game and act as a DM, being able to pose creatures and events, and even take over NPCs so you can interact directly with players ingame.

Even further in your inspection, and you'll note the incredibly powerful toolset, which allows you to create your own modules, inclusive of buildings, sewers, caves, rivers, mountains, forests, dogs, cats, farmers and gnats.

Now i know NWN was discussed in the past, but there were a few misnomers. The same misnomers, i suspect, will travel to NWN2 if i don't address them here and now.

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  • 1. "Only Computer Geeks can get it running" - This assumption is incredibly wrong. While it helps to have a background in 3d modeling, programming, hosting, or any of the other myriad of skills that are oh so great, it is simply not a necessity. NWN2 has a very large community support group that has provided, and will continue to provide, scripts and tools to make the task of building modules 'relatively' easy.

    2. "The Toolset requires years of practice" - absolutely not true. When i first opened up the toolset, i was intimidated to no end. I closed the program and opted to play the game instead. But, then i read a tutorial called, "Hitchhikers Guide to NWN2 Toolset" and all my doubts almost immediately washed away. I have no background in this, and yet in only weeks, i've been able to create some nice areas. And if you attach some of the extra tools that the NWN2 community has created, you can develop content very quickly.

    3. "It requires a powerful computer" - While NWN2 does need a good video card, and a reasonably good computer, it does not require a 'powerful' computer. In fact, it is on par with many of the existing games' requirements. Also, the game allows you to modify your settings so you can run it with less pops and whistles.

    4. "You can't run a roleplaying session on it" - this is so far from the truth, it deserves a smack. If you are a DM, and you have players, the roleplaying session is entirely based on how you, the DM, and your players wish to play the game. In fact, it has been argued that you can play a far more immersive roleplay session because now players are able to interact with each other rather than just the world and the DM.

    5. "No use making Traveller with NWN2, because Obsidian's EULA on material produced means they keep our work" - So incredibly incorrect. Visit www.nwvault.com and understand that any content you provide is publicy shared... unless you don't provide it publicly, in which case nobody gets it, and nobody builds upon it. When you create something, and you post it at NWVault, it is shared to the community, and Obsidian will not, and cannot, remove it. Obsidian is following the same actions as Bioware (the developers of NWN), in that they hope to collect good work and add it to their later releases, but the initial work done by the community will still be out there for free. As to fears of Obsidian grabbing any Traveller module and selling it, they can't. Not without permission from Marc Miller. So while you can create content utilizing the NWN2 engine, and attempt to emulate many of Traveller's characteristics, as long as you don't attempt to make a profit from it... you're in the clear.

    6. "You can't make it into a space theme" - Awhile back some people made Firefly material for NWN. That was not as good a utility as NWN2, and yet they did it. NWN2 offers greater possibilities, and while this community may, or may not, have the talents needed to create the content... i'll tell right now, we don't need it.</font>
If there is sufficient interest in this, we can take our interest to the NWN2 community and very likely recruit talent to help develop Traveller content.

For now, lets discuss it here in this thread and see just how much interest exists. Do you want this? Do you want to be able to meet up with all your old Traveller friends and have 3D online games with almost everything mundane being automated, and the only features you need to focus on are enjoying the game and the ingame interaction with other Traveller enthusiasts?

Thanks for reading
 
Could run/play Traveller on OpenRPG too. It's more of a tabletop feel for online gaming.

http://www.openrpg.com

I have NWN and might be open to trying NWN2, and I'm a programmer, however, I've not played with the toolset much from NWN. I have tried some modules and adventures from the NWVault though. Some good stuff up there.
 
Sounds interesting, White Warlock.

Maybe once I upgrade my PC to be able to run NWN2, I might take a look if you're still working on this.
 
It does sound interesting. I haven't played NWN or NWN2, but I have playe KOTOR and KOTOR 2, and I can't get enough of them.

How would things like space exploration be done? Planetary exploration is a bit of a no-brainer. But can you hop into a Scout/Courier and spit fire at corsairs? Find and land on a rock? Skim a gasgiant's clouds?

Or would we have to basically accept we can only really wander around a planet? (say the starport and starcity to start with, other areas as needed)
 
GRiP, and kLoOge.Werks both also allow Tabletop RPG experience online.

What is the benefit of NWN2 over the traditional Tabletop RPG online software packages?
 
Actually, from what I have seen of a few superb examples from NWW.... the NWN system has one *potential* advantage over the more traditional Tabletop online RPGs (e.g. GRIP):

The NWN model has the potential to be "persistent", a living breathing 24-7 never-closes fictional world, much like MMORPGs or the early MUDs amd MUSHes.

Sadly, creating a living breathing player-created "persistent" game universe is a LOT of work. In all honesty, it means more work than one person can handle. This is why the ambitious NWN projects can never be created by a single (even talented) person alone. It must be a labor of love among "several" very talented world builders/GMs.

I've played all kinds of systems to this date.

MUDs and MUSHes? Been there, done that. Text only environment bored me to hell. Moved on.

AOL Chat-based role-playing? Done it. Been there done that.

MMORPGs? I played 3 of them. Everquest for at least 2 years. Star Wars Galaxies for 1.5 years. And WoW for about 7 months.

Also have done the "Online Tabletop Client-server" thing, like GRIP. It has its pros and cons too.

The NWN model is unique. It is hard to explain, other than it borrows elements from both MMORPGs as well as traditional Pen-and-Paper tabletop gaming. It is neither, and yet it is both.

I might have a fairly good idea of what the Original Poster's vision is. He dreams of a living breathing graphical Traveller universe, based on the game. One where you are not just a boring lead miniature being pushed around, but rather you are a 3D avatar, walking around, exploring starports, exploring barren worlds, encountering beastly alien predators, travelling together along dark smokey passages of Ancients Ruins along with your fellow adventurers (online players) etc. At the same time, there is still a Referee(s) (GM) who serves as the world builder, the scenario maker, the Narrator, He Who Is Controller of the NPCs; He Who is Heartless And Cruel To Send a Squad of Zhodani Commandos After You.

Roleplay? Roleplay is what you make of it. It can exist in any gaming medium, online or not, graphical or not. Any medium where the gamers can communicate and interact with each other, there can be roleplay. Roleplay is no better or no worse in this medium. Roleplay is human effort and the result of gamer interaction. Hell, roleplay can even be done over emails, or forum postings. It can even be done over the telephone if your mind is dirty enough. Roleplay is really just a form of improvised acting.
 
I have another misnomer which can actually be applied to all mod projects and is the death of the vast majority of them.

A total conversion is a staggering amount of work for people to do in their spare time on a totally voluntary basis.

Good luck with it though. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Crow
 
NWN 2 doesn't run on the Mac either. NWN was ported to the Mac, but they didn't port the toolset, so (as I understand it) it can only run as a client and you can not create content on the Mac for NWN.
 
Hey again all,

Okay, just to clarify a few things, i'm looking for interest level. I do see some, although i'm not sure it's enough. Moreso, there seems to be a lot of defeatism in these posts, and on posts on previous threads of a similar nature. Anyhow, let me pose the next part, because i think we can work on this mindset.

Scarecrow stated:
A total conversion is a staggering amount of work for people to do in their spare time on a totally voluntary basis.
Of this i do not disagree, but only if you work alone to conquer the various challenges. At the end of this post i will include some links that i want you to visit. It will show some of the 'sci-fi' work that was done with NWN, by various groups.

Scarecrow stated:
Good luck with it though. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
How about what 'we' come up with? ;)

stofsk stated:
Or would we have to basically accept we can only really wander around a planet? (say the starport and starcity to start with, other areas as needed)
Good questions, and i'm glad you gave me this opportunity to respond to them.

First let me indicate that Maladominus is very much correct in what i am envisioning. Roleplay, to me, is one of the most essential aspects to Traveller. It provides a simple, yet beautiful game system and story-basis that allows for a space frontier type roleplay session.

Because Traveller is primarily about exploring new worlds and inner-ship combat (as opposed to intership combat, which is less than tertiary), the NWN community will be providing plenty of content for us without even trying. That's because we can take a generic fantasy module, drop in a spaceport, remove some inappropriate items, switch out a few creatures, install the premade scripts and wala... a low-tech planet! ;)

Traveller allows us to grab just about any module created, switch out and in some essential elements, and pose that module as yet another world. Granted, each module won't actually encompass an entire world, but it's a start. Look, there's more to this, but right now i'm attempting to illicit interest and remove some ingrained fears/doubts, not write out an entire plan.

stofsk stated:
How would things like space exploration be done? Planetary exploration is a bit of a no-brainer. But can you hop into a Scout/Courier and spit fire at corsairs? Find and land on a rock? Skim a gasgiant's clouds?
This is not a high priority in my book, but i provide some links at the end of this post to show you it's already been done in NWN, and thus it can be done even better in NWN2.

In reading one of the polls here and at other Traveller sites, there is an overwhelming interest in recreation of the 'basics' and Spinward Marches, as well as maintaining the 2d maps. NWN2 allows for map travel, and it's as easy as dropping a bmp file, then parking icons to the various planets. A little script will need to be written that will allow you to travel only to the planets you can reach (jump drive capability), but i don't expect this to be a challenging script.

Encounters could be managed as it is presented in some of the videos, created from NWN, that i linked below. And realize, NWN has horrid graphics in comparison to NWN2.

Laser/plasma weapons and grenade - http://www.bakasaru.info/dt/armes.wmv

A Star Wars scene, including a demonstration of 'the Force' (near the end) - http://www.bakasaru.info/dt/etouffement.wmv

A somewhat chaotic demonstration of Star Wars' Jedis in action - http://www.bakasaru.info/dt/pouvoir_jedi.wmv

Video showing prone position combat, calling reinforcements, and jet packs in action - http://www.bakasaru.info/dt/Commandement.wmv

A special note on these next two videos. A limitation of NWN (and NWN2) comes in the form of a walkmesh dependency. What this means is that movement is two dimensional (not three, as witnessed in the game Homeworld), and thus what you are seeing is a 'trick' of visual display, wherein the ships are moving in a two-dimensional plane. Nonetheless, i think it is more than sufficient for the 'few' combat scenes anticipated with Traveller adventuring. I'm more interested in the 'boarding' incidents and the inner-ship combat, which can be done by creating maps of ships plans that characters can navigate (interesting yet?).

Two Star Wars ships in combat - http://www.bakasaru.info/dt/New_effect.wmv

An impressive display of ship battles, planets, asteroids, and even the Death Star - http://www.bakasaru.info/dt/Vaisseau_comment.wmv

But wait, there's more... (sorry, had to steal that line from those infomercials)

Three 'zipped' videos from the NWN Firefly project (not dissimiliar to Traveller)

http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Download.php?id=79608

http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Download.php?id=79609

http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Download.php?id=79605

A few screenshots to whet your interests
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One more video of NWN sci-fi community content tech 8-10 (SteamPunk - warning: 39megs and the demo is boring) - http://dodownload.filefront.com/4806259//ee78c4768813b9b66e97732b3771668d742ba15769337c548aea911eae5a81aae785184a0e01de99


Okay then, are we interested yet?
 
Alright, how about if i throw in some ginzu knives?

Or maybe one more video of NWN created content. Again, remember that NWN2 has far better graphical capabilities, comparable to some of the best FPS games out on the market right now, so just 'think' of Andrew Boulton quality 3d graphic content. ;)

A guy stealing a car - http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Download.php?id=19009

Screenshots
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One more comment, then i drop the subject and let you guys/gals decide whether you want to pursue this further.

The idea is not necessarily to create a 'single' free online roleplay persistent world, although that is definitely an option. The idea is to collect and develop the content that will allow all of us to run 'private' sessions with those in this, and other, Traveller communities. Again, if the community is interested in a 24/7 persistent world project, that is certainly a viable option.

Okay, later.
 
Indeed, very nice. But I have a question as someone familiar with some of the newer computer games, but totally not to the MMORPG systems, ala NWN, Matrix, Everquest, Star Wars, yada yada.

But I do know, in the case of Star Wars, that there are "space" expansion packs. First of all, how close of a comparison is NWN with SW Galaxies? And is the space expansion functionality similar to anything in NWN?

Again, forgive the elementary questions, but I am not at all familiar with these types of games.
 
I had (and have) the same skepticism Scarecrow seemed to voice (don't let me speak for him). Scarecrow is (or used to) work on computer games. I've worked on a massive multi-user platform (similar to what underpins WOW or the like) before. I've also worked on Ghost Recon mods for 'fun'.

I'm not sure how many of the other folks around here have actual computer gaming/art industry background. That doesn't matter, except to say my skepticism of the level of effort involved in doing this in a fashion at all useful or lasting is based on personal experience. I think the effort goes well beyond non-trivial into serious-heavy-sledding territory.

There are art and other assets you can probably acquire that would simplify the work. But with NWN2s graphic quality, doing a half-assed job of any graphics would immediately stick out. And the sheer volume of modelling you'd have to do would be sizable, as would the effort of writing any sort of interaction scripts to drive the entities in the environment.

To do this well will take a lot of effort from a lot of talented people. The remuneration will be... nothing monetary. To do a decent Spinward Marches or even one decent world would be a fair bit of work.

I'm not saying it can't be done, and things are often done by those who refuse to acknowledge at the outset how hard a task is and just plow ahead, but I think it is a very big challenge to do and anyone getting involved should have that firmly in mind.
 
Yeah, but many hands make light work, which I think is the point White Warlock is trying to make.

And it's not an MMORPG. It's taking the tabletop game into an immersive environment that we create.
 
Know a bit about modding from tinkering with Rome Total War and Morrowind.

Even recreating something fairly linear like say the Traveller Adventure (which covers just one rather sparsely populated subsector) would be a huge piece of work in which a lot of people (ideally dozens) will have to put in weeks and months of work and which will require some very serious project management skills indeed to bring off.

And then at precisely the point you're ready to go beta NWN3 will be launched, none of your work will be portable over to it and you'll have to start all over again...
 
Well, I'm not saying it can't be done. I think the problem is that with something like Star Wars, you'll find a whole sea of talented people just fighting to help out on the project. That doesn;t necessarily mean the project will see the light of day but it'll stand a better chance than a Traveller project where you might scrape together three or four people who are not only enthusiastic enough but have the necessary skills too.
And then how many would play? My experience with Traveller players is that they tend to be grognards who have PCs for making spreadsheets, not for running PC games.

As for me, I'd absolutely love to help you out but I'm going to be realistic here and say that I really really don't have the time. Ask Ravs (and indeed most folks around here that I've let down from time to time).

Crow
 
Jim Fetters wrote:
I do know, in the case of Star Wars, that there are "space" expansion packs. First of all, how close of a comparison is NWN with SW Galaxies? And is the space expansion functionality similar to anything in NWN?
The NWN community works quite differently than most other gaming communities, and an explanation is in order.

NWN is a program 'specifically designed' to accommodate people who want to design, host, AND GM their own modules. The default scripts, models, and tilesets were geared for D&D modules.

NWN, and now NWN2, are 4 programs in one. We have the Player Client, DM Client, Toolset, and the NWN Server (hosting). All the other games you are familiar with provide a Player Client, with some also including hosting software. They do not include the DM Client or a Toolset (some provide very basic tilesetting tools, none provide a DM client, which i will discuss later).

This is important to understand, because ALL other games require 'workarounds' and community-based hacks in order to make anything worthwhile. And these tools are 'pain' to work with. NWN/NWN2, on the other hand, provides a very indepth, and initially intimidating, utility to create your modules. When i first loaded it, i closed it right back up again. But then i studied a simple tutorial, called "Hitchhikers Guide to the NWN2 Toolset" and i my hesitations were almost immediately removed.

The toolset has been described as easy to learn and use as Photoshop. I think it's easier, and infinitely more powerful.

Answering your specific question, Obsidian (the developers of NWN2) does not provide sci-fi placeables/tilesets. The power of NWN, and now of NWN2, is in the community support. The NWN community, within a 5 year timeframe, created hundreds of thousands of add-ons, including sci-fi related material. The NWN2 community has absorbed, and continues to absorb, many of those who have learned how to work with NWN. So NWN2 has a greater advantage, in that we already have a very large and talented pool of contributers.

Presently, there are a few development obstacles that Obsidian is working to fix, and it is expected they will resolve these issues within a few months. Yet, even with these obstacles, Contributions, community created content, continue to pour in. If you wish to examine some of this stuff, visit www.nwvault.com .

Jim Fetters wrote:
Again, forgive the elementary questions, but I am not at all familiar with these types of games.
Jim, your questions are completely acceptable and if i can answer them, i will. So don't even stress it.

Kaladorn wrote:
I'm not sure how many of the other folks around here have actual computer gaming/art industry background. That doesn't matter, except to say my skepticism of the level of effort involved in doing this in a fashion at all useful or lasting is based on personal experience. I think the effort goes well beyond non-trivial into serious-heavy-sledding territory.
Your experience, unfortunately, turns out to be your obstacle, because your experience is based on having to work 'around' the fact those programs were not designed with the intention of providing utilities to create your own content.

NWN/NWN2 is specifically geared towards content development, and thus the tools provided make the task easier. Plenty of people without 'any' background have been able to delve into this stuff.

Kaladorn wrote:
There are art and other assets you can probably acquire that would simplify the work. But with NWN2s graphic quality, doing a half-assed job of any graphics would immediately stick out. And the sheer volume of modelling you'd have to do would be sizable, as would the effort of writing any sort of interaction scripts to drive the entities in the environment.
The present discussion is about whether this community is interested in this, not in the scope of the tasks associated with making it all happen. But, since you are focusing on this, i will give response.

There are plenty of talents available within the NWN community, many of which we 'may' be able to acquire assist from. However, in order for this to happen, we need a strong and dedicated group of people interested in the success of the Traveller Project.

Continuing, I do agree we will need a lot of 'additional' 3d models, although tilesets shouldn't be difficult. As to the 3d models, there are plenty available (i've already researched this), for free. We might even be able to encourage content provision from talented Traveller artists.

Your statements of concern over 'quality 3d work is not consistent with what i've seen of 3d models. Many 3d models are simply too intensive, too detailed, to be included in games, so our concern will be that of ensuring we have 3d models that aren't too intensive. It is the skins that make them look good, and it will be the 2d skins that we will need to focus on.

Scripts, as well, are aplenty. Virtually all the scripts made for NWN are being transferred over to NWN2. They use the same powerful scripting language (NWScript). But to tell you the truth, scripting will only be needed to 'change' the way characters are generated and to 'change' some of the ways the game handles die-rolls (changing default damage to penetration, etc). And to make things easier, we will need to go for the d20 Traveller system. Most other content requires very simple, very easy modifications to basic tab-deliminated text files.

Any other scripting needs will only be required if we are to assume 'stand-alone' games, in which they are hosted and no DM/GM is present. I don't see that as an immediate need, nor have i found Persistent Worlds to be all that viable without plenty of players willing to play on a regular basis, and plenty of DMs willing to DM. So, for now, the goal is to create the content so we can create our own campaigns, and after that... we can look into a larger scale, multi-server project.

Kaladorn wrote:
I'm not saying it can't be done, and things are often done by those who refuse to acknowledge at the outset how hard a task is and just plow ahead, but I think it is a very big challenge to do and anyone getting involved should have that firmly in mind.
I stated, from the onset, the goal is to attempt to utilize 'pre-existing' talent. There are presently communities, within the larger NWN community, that specialize in developing modern/sci-fi content and scripts. These same groups created the Star Wars, FireFly and Moderna NWN packets you saw in the pics/videos you saw above, and it is these same people, plus others, that i hope we can gain to assist in developing Traveller content. They are presently waiting until Obsidian takes down some of the obstacles, but then intend on 'porting' all that they created from NWN, to NWN2, and fixing what doesn't quite transfer over. From there, we should have plenty of content, and from there we may be able to gain some personal attention.

They have, in fact, already indicated a willingness to assist. Assuming we can gain a willingness to want.

alte wrote:
And then at precisely the point you're ready to go beta NWN3 will be launched, none of your work will be portable over to it and you'll have to start all over again...
Negativity is the biggest friend to procrastination. If you believe it can be done, you gain the support, provide a reasonable plan, and put in the time, it can be done.

Within 6 months of the release of NWN, a group of volunteers recreated 20 large areas of the Forgotten Realms, including provision of scripts to ensure it matched table-top D&D rules (as opposed to MMORPG rules), hosted all of them 24/7, and had them all interconnected, etc. I helped start this project, as well as others, and helped to point out areas in need of additional attention.

Again, that huge project, the largest community-based MMORPG project in existence, only took 6 months to get off the ground and it's been running now for 5+ years.

Scarecrow wrote:
I think the problem is that with something like Star Wars, you'll find a whole sea of talented people just fighting to help out on the project. That doesn;t necessarily mean the project will see the light of day but it'll stand a better chance than a Traveller project.
The Star Wars project was committed by a small band of French men, and completed within a year, using the NWN game engine. They took upon many ideas and solutions presented by the NWN community as a whole. They intend on porting over their work to NWN2.

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Okay, let me iterate. My goal with this post is to find out how many people are interested in this project and are willing to stand together to make it happen. This does not mean you have to do the work, but it does mean you have to be positive in your thoughts.

It is too early to start this project, of this i am full aware. More content needs to be provided by the NWN2 community, and more solutions presented for some of the things i see as 'too much work to overcome' without Obsidian, the developers of NWN2, fixing and providing patches.

But, while we wait for more community content, wait for Obsidian to get NWN2 to where it needs to be, we can look at this from a 'productive' approach, and start planning on how we can make this happen, as well as what we will need for it to occur.

This is my closing post. If the interest remains, and people within this and other Traveller communities are willing to get together to start the planning, send me an email. Anyone can lead, i just want to help.

Respectfully,
White Warlock
white_warlock@hotmail.com
 
Originally posted by Scarecrow:
As for me, I'd absolutely love to help you out but I'm going to be realistic here and say that I really really don't have the time. Ask Ravs (and indeed most folks around here that I've let down from time to time).

Crow
At least I'm still in your mind, if only as a guilty conscience


Ravs
 
Just so you don't think I'm a huge void of negativity, let me wish you all the luck in the world. Like Scarecrow, I've got enough else to do that I can't realistically contribute dependable amounts of time. This week saw several 14+ hour days in front of the computer already.

I do hope things are as feasible, easy, and attainable as WW suggests. It would be nice. So, best wishes for every success in this project. I can't follow, I can't lead, so the least I can do is get out of the way having issued my own cautionary message.
 
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