MGT Only: Traveller Starter Box Set - Player Input...

[aramis]

I strongly disagree for a number of reasons. Why should new players be directed to the OTU? Even if you wanted to do that for some reason, why burden them with setting detail that is unlikely to come into play at the table?

Few games succeed without a default setting these days. Even D&D has the Forgotten Realms or Grayhawk baked in (Depending upon edition). 5E is unabashedly the Forgotten Realms. Pathfinder has Golarion. Star Wars has the SW Extended Universe. Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, et al, have the 40K universe. The "End of the World" series by FFG is the best selling without a setting - but it's actually 3-4 settings per book, with a very short ruleset. Fate Core sells about the same as EotW... but the first supplment was a collection of settings, and most prior fate games are mostly setting. COC outsells BRP - it's the SAME rules, COC having a setting...

From where I sit...
if a game would sell X units without a setting...
it will generally sell 0.9X +Y units with one, and Y > 0.1X by some largish margin.

 

[Marchand]

Few games succeed without a default setting these days. Even D&D has the Forgotten Realms or Grayhawk baked in (Depending upon edition). 5E is unabashedly the Forgotten Realms. Pathfinder has Golarion. Star Wars has the SW Extended Universe. Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, et al, have the 40K universe. The "End of the World" series by FFG is the best selling without a setting - but it's actually 3-4 settings per book, with a very short ruleset. Fate Core sells about the same as EotW... but the first supplment was a collection of settings, and most prior fate games are mostly setting. COC outsells BRP - it's the SAME rules, COC having a setting...

I see what you mean and to some extent I agree. What I am trying to get at is the difference between "here are some broad assumptions about the kind of setting that you can grasp intuitively and use to inform your game session" and "here are a list of emperors for the past 1200 years and an organogram of the Scout Service and 50+ pages more of similar stuff".

A page in the GM's book summarising that many campaigns traditionally have happened on the fringes of a space-feudal empire and here and some other societies you can drop in, nobody could argue with. And have a 3I / Spinward Marches book later on, for those who want a detailed setting.

For what it's worth, my copy of the 5E core books explicitly acknowledges there are a bunch of published settings and encourages DMs to roll their own; plus I suppose "these days" is your operative phrase as I don't see much setting material in the LBBs!

I would also point to Tekumel - beautiful setting, some of the highest quality background material I can think of - and successive attempts to relaunch it have struggled, one reason being the sheer volume of setting info, which is off-putting to the uninitiated. The recent Bethorm relaunch explicitly took a design decision to appeal to the existing fanbase, and, well, I haven't seen it make much of a splash.

 

[aramis]

The Emperor's list and the Nobility Essay go hand in hand, and add a LOT of depth even when playing in the Marches.
And they aren't that much.

 

[robject]

So, outside of the gearhead grognard simulationista's, for which it's clear that most of the design systems are simply inadequate, and lacking enough information to satisfy them, why does an RPG need a ship design system?

Many SF RPGs get by without one.

One reason I like Traveller is because of Book 2.

 

[flykiller]

So, outside of the gearhead grognard simulationista's, for which it's clear that most of the design systems are simply inadequate, and lacking enough information to satisfy them, why does an RPG need a ship design system?

because it was presumed that there was a middle ground between detailed simulationists and opera gamers - that many if not most gamers would want some level of depiction of the environment in which they adventured, and some level of capability in and control of that depiction.

this seems not to have been the case.

 

[wolvenwood]

I am very much looking forward to this product. For me, a sheet of basic Traveller ship counters and a color star map would add to the appeal.

 

[aramis]

Many SF RPGs get by without one.

One reason I like Traveller is because of Book 2.

Sci Fi is a VERY broad genre. Let's look at the genre Traveller intended to fill.

Has ship design	does not have ship design	I don't know
Traveller FGU's Space Opera FASA-Trek ‡ Decipher-Trek Reichstar ICE's Spacemaster Ken StAndre's Starfaring T2300/2300AD‡ TSR's Star Frontiers TSR's Buck Rogers in the XXV C TSR's Alternity WEG's Torg (in Space Gods setting)† WEG's Shatterzone‡ WEG's d6 Space SJG's GURPS Space†‡ HG's Star Hero†‡ FFG's Rogue Trader BTRC's EABA† T&I's/Chessex's Albedo Sanguine's Albedo: Platinum Catalyst ‡	WEG Star Wars WotC Star Wars FFG Star Wars LUG Trek Published § Pacesetter's Star Ace Palladium's Mechanoids Palladium's Robotech FGU's Starships & Spacemen Aliens Adventure Game § Catalyst's Cosmic Patrol BTRC's Space-Time Deep7's Star Legion	PIG's Hard Nova 2

[tc=2]† explicitly included subgenre
‡System not in system's core book
§ one was done and used, but not published or was to be in a supplement that got cancelled[/tc]

Why is ship design important?
1) it's impossible to come up with all the viable permutations to satisfy more than the 1st sigma in a single volume without it being as big as Perry's ChemE handbook
2) It allows GMs to more readily share their own expansions on the ship list.
3) It frees the GM from the supplement train
4) It creates a more consistent experience for players across GM's.

 

[whartung]

Why is ship design important?
1) it's impossible to come up with all the viable permutations to satisfy more than the 1st sigma in a single volume without it being as big as Perry's ChemE handbook
2) It allows GMs to more readily share their own expansions on the ship list.
3) It frees the GM from the supplement train
4) It creates a more consistent experience for players across GM's.

GMs have been making planets, continents, cities, towns, dungeons and castles and buildings for years without any guidance than what the story line requires. If it looks good, it is good.

Similarly, they've been running adventures infiltrating company offices, hacking computers, stealing aboard ships, etc. all without an entire detailed system to create these artifacts.

For most adventures, the ship is basic transport, or shelter. At worst it's a McGuffin. There's an edge case of the Trader campaign where ships costs and the trade system need to be ostensibly balanced. But that doesn't have to have a design system, just a properly priced ship.

But other than that, a ship, or ships, don't necessarily need detailed engineering to be usable for an RPG. A homemade deckplan will suffice, just like a hastily drawn out office map. Toss in the some skill rolls for launching, landing, and jumping, and you're good to go.

 

[aramis]

GMs have been making planets, continents, cities, towns, dungeons and castles and buildings for years without any guidance than what the story line requires. If it looks good, it is good.

And yet, advice on designing dungeons and castles has been in EVERY edition of D&D.
Traveller, Space Opera, Spacemaster, all the Treks, have had advice on building worlds.

It's not as easy as "if it looks right it is right" - it has to not only look right but feel right. And Traveller has a specific feel imparted by it's world generation rules in all editions, and how they have been fleshed out in CT, MT, and T5, that is, when used, a more consistent across GM's system than, as Aurelio Voltaire puts it, "USS Make Sh** Up."

For most adventures, the ship is basic transport, or shelter. At worst it's a McGuffin. There's an edge case of the Trader campaign where ships costs and the trade system need to be ostensibly balanced. But that doesn't have to have a design system, just a properly priced ship.

But other than that, a ship, or ships, don't necessarily need detailed engineering to be usable for an RPG. A homemade deckplan will suffice, just like a hastily drawn out office map. Toss in the some skill rolls for launching, landing, and jumping, and you're good to go.

Most RPGs don't even provide deckplans for ships. Space Opera as a genre needs ship design far more than world design; the biggest sellers in the genre all have either rafts of supplemental ship designs (most of the Treks, all of the Star Wars) or design systems (most of the treks, Traveller, SO, Spacemaster, Alternity, GURPS, Hero)

Space Combat is a staple of the genre.

Having the consistent design system is more important than a world design system, because the world design is a shared experience base already, while ships are not.

 

[Condottiere]

I always found the primary issue with castle design is finding the suitable geographic spot.

 

[Marchand]

Hard Nova 2 does have ship design, by the way.

 

[robject]

Why is ship design important?

(5) It adds character to the game.
(6) It can be enjoyable, and a kind of mini-game (e.g. Book 2).

 

[Spinward Scout]

You're listing all the pros, but what about the cons:

Why is ship design not important?

1.) It's irrelevant to someone who just wants to play.
2.) It takes up space in a book that could be used for something else.
3.) It could be left out to lower the price of the book.
4.) There are sooo many Traveller standard ship designs already, that it's overkill.
5.) It could be replaced by the top 20 most commonly encountered starships and the top 10 most often used adventuring ships.
6.) Ship encounter tables are made with standard ships in mind.
7.) You dang kids always think the grass is greener on the other side of the construction yard.
8.) A main rulebook should be made with one goal in mind - getting someone playing Traveller. Unless the character you're playing is a starship architect or your character is commissioning a new ship, ship design is not playing Traveller.

I've designed my own ships before. It's a neat add-on to the game. But that's just it - it's an add on.

 

[aramis]

You're listing all the pros, but what about the cons:

Why is ship design not important?

1.) It's irrelevant to someone who just wants to play.
2.) It takes up space in a book that could be used for something else.
3.) It could be left out to lower the price of the book.
4.) There are sooo many Traveller standard ship designs already, that it's overkill.
5.) It could be replaced by the top 20 most commonly encountered starships and the top 10 most often used adventuring ships.
6.) Ship encounter tables are made with standard ships in mind.
7.) You dang kids always think the grass is greener on the other side of the construction yard.
8.) A main rulebook should be made with one goal in mind - getting someone playing Traveller. Unless the character you're playing is a starship architect or your character is commissioning a new ship, ship design is not playing Traveller.

I've designed my own ships before. It's a neat add-on to the game. But that's just it - it's an add on.

Traveller has always had (excepting for TNE) a Toolkit mentality about core books.

Note that for the genre - it's either "Have a well known IP with iconic ship designs in the core" or "Have a ship design system"...

Traveller doesn't actually have much for iconic ship designs that people outside the game would recognize...

 

[Spinward Scout]

Traveller has always had (excepting for TNE) a Toolkit mentality about core books.

True, but I never did any ship design until MegaTraveller.

 

[Dagrill]

FFG Star Wars

Hi,

FFG Star Wars may not have a complete ship design system, but each vehicle has a certain number of customisable hard points, enabling you to play around with the ships. The annoying thing about this system is that each book has additional vehicle/ship types and sometimes more add ons.

It is all rather pretty and is obviously what MgT/T5 has to compte against.

Kind Regards

David

 

[robject]

You're listing all the pros, but what about the cons:

I appreciate someone playing Devil's Advocate, and those points are all reasonable.

In particular:

8.) A main rulebook should be made with one goal in mind - getting someone playing Traveller. Unless the character you're playing is a starship architect or your character is commissioning a new ship, ship design is not playing Traveller.

Games are for playing, and Traveller happens to have several solo games built into the core rules. That's a strength, as long as those solo games are relatively simple. This is why mainworld creation is relatively easy.

The core rulebook, if written for referees and players both, should have the tools where a referee can create his own subsector and ships and patrons. I will note that this lives in tension with the complexity of those mini-games.

 

[aramis]

Hi,

FFG Star Wars may not have a complete ship design system, but each vehicle has a certain number of customisable hard points, enabling you to play around with the ships. The annoying thing about this system is that each book has additional vehicle/ship types and sometimes more add ons.

It is all rather pretty and is obviously what MgT/T5 has to compte against.

Kind Regards

David

Yep. But be warned - it is a "Gotta Get them All" mode. Each of the 6 supplements for each of the 3 core games has bits and pieces of nifty stuff...

... and the system for using it is pretty damned lame, compared to the personal combat mechanics.

 

[middenface]

This sounds much like the Liftoff idea, which was sunk by you and others? I was told.. I was working on it at them time, thanks.

 

[Spinward Scout]

It wasn't sunk by us, really. I had to call my bank specifically to authorize to send you a PayPal payment for my ship design. A lot of people don't like to send money overseas. Also, all that was really needed for MgT was quick-start rules and pre-gen characters. I have a feeling this Starter Set might end up the same as Liftoff, if they over-complicate it.