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Traveller Turret Terminology vs Historical Terminology

Keep in mind: the capital ships pre 1979 were in the 800-2000Td range. Post 1981, they firmly change to the Big Ship universe...

(See Mayday and Bk2)

HG opened up the design window, and suddenly, WWII umbers were x10... before acounting for the Td going from 1m^3 submerged (and 1 metric ton total), to Traveller's 14 cubic meter one.

Traveller has lots of overlapping revisions of the trope set over the years...
 
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I don't think the time the rules were written has anything to do with the use of automated guns or not. I mean the pic I posted a while back was of an automated b29 turret from 1944.
Traveller was written (I agree) with a certain picture in mind.
I think that automation is fine and dandy for capital ships but for smaller ships I'll stick with the meatbags :)

B29 turret wasn't automated, it was remotely controlled by a meat gunner via electromechanical controls. He still had to sight the target. Perhaps it's a nitpick, but it's not really an example of an automated system.
 
That's all fine as long as long as the weapons only have effective ranges of 1-2km, and engagement ranges on the 10's of meters where the human eye can track the target and use their coarse movements to aim the guns. Of course at these range they should start bringing back auto-cannon instead of high tech lasers.

But seems to me most ship to ship combat takes place at ranges measured in fractions of a light second. 10s of thousands of km.

Starship combat has always been boring. Naked men at 100 paces in a bull ring with high powered rifles pretty much sums up the entire experience.

Even at 1000's of KM, autocannon would be difficult at best due to the speeds of the ships and the relative motion. You'd miss, a lot. Lasers at that distance are effectively instantaneous from fire to hit, and don't leave hazards to navigation.

And there's no reason to believe that the fire control optics aren't damn good, as once a radar range and bearing are obtained the optical control of the turret would be sufficient. In addition, at longer distances relative delta vee is slower at the ship velocities implied by the rules, and because with no atmosphere, the picture is perfectly clear, again lasers make sense.

I have to admit I see no point for missiles and sandcasters to be housed in turrets whatsoever.
 
I will just recall that Mr. Miller was an Army veteran of the Vietnam Era. He did obviously go with what he knew; to do otherwise would lead to even greater disparities - guessing at technologies he would not be remotely familiar with as opposed to speculating out on things he was familiar with...

In addition, the methods of publication and communication in '77 were, well, puny compared to what we can do now. Research then meant Library time, looking in journals, actually having to go to each article to see if the content was relevant to what you were looking for.

I'll note the Nexis news and journal database service was introduced in 1979, and then only large corporations could afford to access it.

So, no, I don't think that it's fair, from this side of the internet, to say they had the information available to make better predictions; in addition, it's also not so obvious when we have the benefit of seeing all the other RPGs come out and have a fair amount of research time behind the developers, when Traveller was the first RPG that needed research at all (it's easy to make up a fantasy game item, just stat it out and call it good).

And I think that in part, some of that High Tech influence outta science fiction of the era has actually influenced the real-life products of today; Aramis points out televideo as being a "bust" with some empty space above the head, just as we see it today, but my guess is that when the technology was developed, people expected to see that because of Star Trek and it's ilk, so that's in part why it is how it is...

And using the post-2000 CE example of tank turrets when we're discussing a game published 23 years before then seems disingenuous.
 
And using the post-2000 CE example of tank turrets when we're discussing a game published 23 years before then seems disingenuous.

I was pointing out that the remotely operated (Crew-In-Hull) tank turrets are rather new... and the actual default now for new tanks... but were excruciatingly rare (SP MRLs, aka "missile tanks", only) when the game was designed.
 
Regards missile tanks of the era of Traveller, the US Sheriden springs to mind. MM would have been familiar with it at the time.

This snippet from Wikipedia
The M551 Sheridan was a light tank developed by the United States and named after Civil War General Philip Sheridan. It was designed to be landed by parachute and to swim across rivers. It was armed with the technically advanced but troublesome M81/M81E1 152mm gun/launcher which fired conventional ammunition and the MGM-51 Shillelagh guided anti-tank missile.

It entered U.S. Army service in 1967. Under the urging of General Creighton Abrams, the US Commander of Military Forces in Vietnam at the time, the M551 was rushed into combat service in Vietnam in January 1969. In April and August 1969, M551s were deployed to units in Europe and Korea, respectively.[2] Now retired from service, it saw extensive combat in Vietnam, and limited service in Operation Just Cause (Panama), and the Gulf War (Kuwait).[2]
 
I doubt Marc and company did anywhere near this kind of research actually or put as much thought into turrets as the folks here! :D

Also, just because MM was in the military doesn't mean he would be familiar with tanks at all - heck, I've done one small DOD funded weapons related project in the past and I'm a lot more familiar with tanks than any of the many military folks I know...

The creators of Traveller drew from Sci-Fiction literature and movies as much as anything in RL - that is clearly stated and obviously the intent.
 
MM did time in Vietnam as an officer in the artillery & the Sheridan was not an uncommon piece of hardware in Nam at the time.

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The creators of Traveller drew from Sci-Fiction literature and movies as much as anything in RL - that is clearly stated and obviously the intent.


[/FONT]Absolutely. Pointing out RL experiences those creators had, in no way invalidates the other influences on Traveller that came from the Sci-fi they were exposed to. I'm not sure how or why you would think otherwise. Of course Aramis also points out they were exposed to Popular Mechanics and other non sci-fi publications. Plus no doubt D&D and Tunnels & Trolls too...

Besides, it was only intended as an observation that missile turrets on tanks existed in that period and that MM will very likely have known of them. Plus its an alternative to WWII vintage airplane turrets and has the advantage of being an armored example of a RL turret of around about the right size.
 
Well, if one is going to point out RL examples of things, why select aircraft turrets as an example? I would think that if MWM wanted that as an example, he would have had jump drives on small craft.

For naval turrets, even in 1976 in out-of-the-way Amarillo, our library had copies of Jane's Fighting Shipsand the Bluejackets' Manual. That would have provided terminology in context, plus illustrations and general sizes.

As for computers, the sizes and costs are way off from RL c1976. They are more like the late '50's. This link http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_2423PH3115.html shows a base model IBM mainframe roughly equivalent to a Traveller Model 1. Superficially,it looks like it takes up the whole room, but look closer. When you eliminate the line printer to the left, the floppy disk unit in the front, and the array of disk drives in the back, you are left with the system console immediately behind and to the right of the lady. Behind and to her left is the system itself; looks about 1 meter long, by 1/2 meter wide by 1 1/2 meters high to me. Cost was about $250,000
 
BTW: Modern U.S. tanks can be fired remotely (from clear across the world, in fact), and, irregardless, the tank crew's role during engagement is often limited to vocalizing 'fire, fire, fire...' while the computer handles aiming and munition loading, etc. with targets designated from aerial support and command support as well as onboard automated FOF systems.

Not in my Army!

The M1 series tanks are, and have been, our main battle tanks (call it a heavy tank, in other words) since the 1980's. It never had an autoloader. None of our tanks ever have. The Soviets and ex-Soviets have had mixed experiences with them. A good M1 or M60 crew good out-gun a T-72 autoloader.

A 120mm round, with a combustible case, is big, heavy, and relatively fragile. One wouldn't want an autoloader; The commander can override the gunner. On the M1A3, he's got his own thermal, and can slew the gun to the next target that he's designated. The gunner and tank commander AIM the gun; the computer, if properly set up by them, computes the correct gun position based on the point of aim selected by one of these crew members. The lasing of the target obtains the most import aspect here; the range. The crew must determine if the range is correct, or re-lase if they think they got a bad lase.

If the gunner points it at the dirt and fires the computer makes sure he hits that dirt very accurately. Verbal fire commands keep everyone aware of what is going on, but the firing is based on the physical manipulation of the controls.

This is an important point: some of these functions could practically be accomplished remotely, but they are not. All of these functions could not. The closest thing to a remote is the commander's override; he's so close to the gunner he can kick him in the head. No one outside the tank controls the tank. You'd need a lot of redundant people to do this; why would you create al these redundant tank crews? The most effective way of accomplishing direct fire is with the gunner as close as possible to the weapon system. There are certain things that require over-rides, quick fixes, and improvisation; mechanization helps, but does not replace the human. The hypothesis that in the OTU, analogous situations may exist that keep this principal still valid under certain conditions, is certainly rational if not proveable.

(You may have artillery and armor mixed up; by definition, indirect fire -artillery- uses the fire direction of another. We do not use our tanks -armor- for indirect fire: wrong ammunition, wrong fire control, and we have a lot of indirect fire assets. Some self-propelled artillery may look vaguely like some sort of tank, but they are profoundly different creatures. The SP guns can protect the crew from minor small arms, and artillery fragments if the blasts are not too close; tanks are built to go toe-to-toe with other tanks and offer protection against various anti-tank munitions across the frontal arc. Indirect fire IMTU puts the observer ever father from the weapon system for ortillery, but all the more reason to have a human in the loop, not just yelling fire, but checking that the automation has not obscured or compounded some human error.)

Also, "irregardless" is not a word.
 
Agreed, samuel.

And even artillery is controlled at the point of the mechanism.

Soviet autoloaders were notoriously noted for immolating crews when they malfunctioned.

And the relavive successes of crew in turret versus autoloader tanks is quite lopsided in favor of the crewed versions.

Also, we need to be sure we are comparing Tanks to Tanks, not tank destroyers or self propelled guns.
 
Agreed, samuel.

And even artillery is controlled at the point of the mechanism.

Soviet autoloaders were notoriously noted for immolating crews when they malfunctioned.

And the relavive successes of crew in turret versus autoloader tanks is quite lopsided in favor of the crewed versions.

Also, we need to be sure we are comparing Tanks to Tanks, not tank destroyers or self propelled guns.


We actually already know that the Turret gunner in Traveller has to take an action to reload missiles as well as sandcasters.
from Aramis's post about The Traveller Book, p 76

also Gurps Traveller... Starships page 33

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ditto The Mongoose Core Rulebook, pg 146:
“Turret Gunner: Each turret has its own gunner. A character must choose which turret he is manning at the start of the combat.”

While admittedly vague, ‘manning’ a turret implies that the Gunner is at/near/in the turret (as opposed to ‘controlling’ a turret which might imply a more remote operation.)
"Bays" are a different story.
 
It should be noted that all modern warship turrets are controlled entirely from fire control in a windowless room in the bowels of the ship. The turrets don't even have any control mechanism to fire them from the turret itself, though I'm sure an engineer can push this, bang that rod, short this circuit and make the gun go off. The only function the gunnery crew perform on a modern ship is to place ammunition into the automatic feed system, and even this is not in the turret, it's usually several decks below.

The HUDWAC and pupil scanner are great cinematic features, but realistically they are entirely useless for engagements that are many 1000's of kilometers beyond the visual capabilities of the gunner.

In fact, the primary reasons all weapons systems today are computer controlled is because computers are so much faster than a human. The trained human eye is only capable of processing information at around 1/30th of a second, and this is compounded when you factor the brains processing time and then the time to react. With the speed at which today's targets move, this equates to a miss by a long shot. To shoot down an inbound missile, or even jet aircraft, the range, speed and trajectory has to be calculated at micro second accuracy and then acted on. Something far beyond the capability of a human.

The only reason gunners in Traveller would sit in the turret is to play to 70's sci-fi nostalgia, which is fine because it's interesting, it's otherwise completely useless and impractical.

Tank turrets are an entirely different animal. The crew of a tank occupy both the turret and the main body, simply because of the space available. It has nothing to do with its fire control, which is also entirely computer controlled.

Ultimately, whatever works for YTU, do it.
 
Not in my Army! ...
This is an important point: some of these functions could practically be accomplished remotely, but they are not. ...
Ouch! :eek:

Yes that was a very poorly edited BTW statement* on my part … did not mean to belittle the role of tank crews! (Indeed, I'll take this opportunity to state - Thank You for your service!)

Since I know even less about artillery - I'm afraid I can't claim that excuse! I really meant for the whole thing to be a 'could' statement - as in modern U.S. tanks could be made to operate that way!

As badly worded as my post was - it was not made in complete ignorance.

I have actually witnessed the operation of an autoloader in a 'top of the line' main battle tank - as described to me by some high ranker. It was an Abrams just after Desert Storm, when involved in R&D related to the nose cone adhesion to the composite shell. I also watched a remote control demo of one of the tanks simulating firing (manned driver, though). I should stress this was all in a research facility, unclassified and quite some time ago - what I saw was probably just prototypes that never went into production (my own project never did).

As to the level of automation, that was based on a film I saw which had a commander (?) verbalizing fire commands and the computer responding (with a negative for targets remaining) in a live fire demo. I was lead to believe it was all automated, however there was probably more manual activities off screen (at least button pushing - and maybe the whole show) .

Regards autoloaders in general as related to tanks, I believe several U.S. (lighter variants?) were/are in development with actual autoloaders. Ignoring the added risks involved (part of the nature of my project) as mostly a technical design hurtle and load trade-offs, having an extra crewman on board still makes a lot of sense. Can see where besides loading (even if just in emergencies), he could support the tank and its crew in operations and defense - so such would still be of value even in the far future…

Can see merchant vessels going the whole automated route, though. Especially as a starship turret is probably more akin to a Naval gun - and I believe autoloaders are not at all unusual for modern vessels. Though I've never seen one in person nor done any research to back that up - so maybe someone will correct me on that as well!

Thanks!

*irregardless of the term 'irregardless' - which is a word - it is just a non-standard one ;)
 
Addendum regarding M1 autoloader: had to check my scanned archives, just to verify my sanity... my notes say XM91 autoloader system (Benet Labs?). I have notes about possibly supporting 140 in the R2D2 (our 'explosion proof' test rig - it really had that look) - whatever that means.

Sadly that was a few years before digital cameras were common. Was a fun project involving fiber optics, air driven motors and some high power (for the time) lasers...
 
Can see merchant vessels going the whole automated route, though. Especially as a starship turret is probably more akin to a Naval gun - and I believe autoloaders are not at all unusual for modern vessels. Though I've never seen one in person nor done any research to back that up - so maybe someone will correct me on that as well!
Navy missile turrets have always been unmanned going back to the USS Mississippi in the early 50's.

As for gun turrets, it depends on what you consider unmanned. The Mk 42 5"/54 introduced in 1953 was capable of manual or automatic operation in the later mods, but there was still a gun crew below decks. The Mk 45 5"/54 hitting the fleet in 1971 did not even have a place for a gunner, but it still had the 3-man crew below decks for sustained firing.
 
The only reason gunners in Traveller would sit in the turret is to play to 70's sci-fi nostalgia, which is fine because it's interesting, it's otherwise completely useless and impractical.

Tank turrets are an entirely different animal. The crew of a tank occupy both the turret and the main body, simply because of the space available. It has nothing to do with its fire control, which is also entirely computer controlled.

Ultimately, whatever works for YTU, do it.

Snippet there...

The gunner still has to lay the gun on target, and pull the trigger(s). There may be a delay as the computer evaluates all the variables and actually drops the firing pin, but the gunner still controls the gun.

Modern MBT technology and command and control still require that targets as close as that still be identified by visual methods, generally speaking.

And, for the merchies, how do you know the ship approaching/closing on you isn't just another innocent merchie? Do you just start shooting everything vaguely suspicious? See you in Imperial Court, pal. Fully automatic systems can be spoofed, and as the previous poster says, many naval vessels have crews available to man the guns for a variety of reasons, including the fragile nature of computer systems and fiber optic / copper wires being battle damaged and completely removing your ability to fight the gun.

And, why call them Gunners if they ain't the gunner? : )

Anyway, I prefer the quaint and cinematic interpretation myself. Sure, everything could be computer controlled. And I could go play D&D...
 
And, for the merchies, how do you know the ship approaching/closing on you isn't just another innocent merchie? Do you just start shooting everything vaguely suspicious? See you in Imperial Court, pal. Fully automatic systems can be spoofed, and as the previous poster says, many naval vessels have crews available to man the guns for a variety of reasons, including the fragile nature of computer systems and fiber optic / copper wires being battle damaged and completely removing your ability to fight the gun.

And, why call them Gunners if they ain't the gunner? : )

Anyway, I prefer the quaint and cinematic interpretation myself. Sure, everything could be computer controlled. And I could go play D&D...


I was just thinking what sort of merry hell Q-ships could play here.

Also I don't see this as "70's nostalga" any more than the idea of space fighters.
I mean come on if you want to be "realistic" about C&C and automated guns what the hell are you playing with either missiles or fighters for?
In reality a missile isn't gonna catch that ship unless the drive on it is amazingly stepped up from your ships drives and won't realistic ECM cause it to miss anyway?
And fighters?
How does that work?
You are putting people in fragile shells that won't take a hit from a capital ship. It's suicide. Obviously the solution is large ship-killers with bomb pumped lasers that are piloted remotely form some sort of heavily armored command ship. Why would anything like a dogfight be "fun" if you can lose your character? We could change the name of a once popular game (now outshone by Halo (whhhhhhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyy???????) in it's COD-like ilk from Wing Commander to Drone Commander. I mean wouldn't it be more fun fighting battles without distracting viewscreens?
Why bother exploring alien worlds in person when you can just drop a remote sensing package and some robots. I'm sure they will be fine in those Ancients ruins.
 
IMTU, I use both physically manned and unmanned turrets - depends on the mission profile of the ship/adventure party (i.e. # of players). The 'gunner' can be a meatbag or a computer program - but PC's get a simulated (gyro) weapons station for 'unmanned' turrets (i.e. - meaning they are manned remotely).

'Visual' targeting and identification isn't really different - using the Mark I eyeball, aided optically. Just with the 'aids' being a lot higher tech than the handheld telescope an age of sail captain might have used or the gunner in a tank. Without atmo gases, space optics have a much greater range advantage, though they also need it. Of course, one can also rely on a computer when targets are just too far away - and either method can be fooled or just plain mistaken.

Realistically, there is no realistic about how space combat would work - its all really just fantasy. One can slap a layer of sci-fi respectability over it by utilizing known physical facts - like absence of sound transfer in a vacuum and lasers needing something to make them visible. Being more realistic about these aspects is actually better cinematically, IMO - high power discharges still make noise inside and that ozone smell should get the testosterone flowing, etc. But rationalizing game mechanics, like Gunner skill, takes creative license and a certain suspension of disbelief.

The various versions of Traveller have space combat rounds of fairly long times. I don't use them explicitly, but I do use what I call 'Transfer/Time On Target' for energy weapons. Hitting a distant LOS target shouldn't be all that hard - making it count by maintaining the hit/varying the imparting of energy good enough to be effective, could be much harder. Its a bit weak and handwavy, but I justify Gunner skill as related to the experience to anticipate the target and adjust the energies, and other characteristics of the beam, to maximize effectiveness. A target doesn't necessarily have to change course or jinx to avoid damage - they can simply change their facing using the presumption that the energy must be absorbed over time, but not too much time.

My energy weps also have a feedback aspect to them - giving the gunner 'realtime' information on how 'well' the beam is doing in order to do split second adjustments to wavelength/particle counts and spread, etc. Performing such minute, yet critical adjustments, while holding the beam on target, are where the 'skill' comes in. It also means the gunner requires focusing on the activity - not just pressing a button and moving to the next target.
 
Regardless of my earlier comments, and some of the "warts" being discussed here, I still need to say this: Overall, CT is still a remarkable piece of work and it shows by lasting for over 35 years.
 
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