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Traveller warships are WWII navy, but without a major piece

I always thought that the Age of Sail was a closer analogy. Battleships = Ships-of-the-Line, cruisers = frigates, and escorts = sloops and brigs.

Hans

More like age of steam before radio and other electronics were invented. You are on your own as a naval captain or as an admiral. The ships are armed with numerous weapons of varying size only a few of which are really ship killers and those are much like some pre-dreadnought's huge but few guns.

The introduction of fighter / attack craft into the mix is just an anomoly to that analogy.

Now, if you wanted a modern day-like ship killer missile just design a 500 to 1000 ton ship that is nothing but a antiship missile in and of itself. That is build it like a normal non-jump ship design, make it automatically / robotically controlled, then add a huge bomb of some sort that takes up most of the space. If you need more survivability, add armor and defensive measures to prevent its destruction. Slam said "missile" into the enemy ship and watch it go boom!
 
I always thought that the Age of Sail was a closer analogy. Battleships = Ships-of-the-Line, cruisers = frigates, and escorts = sloops and brigs.

And carriers/fighters?

They are quite decisive at some TLs...

Fighters are only decisive in bringing a cheap gun to the fight, much like Battle Riders are, not so much with the gun they carry. The similarity with the Age of Sail is that guns don't scale with the ship (like a large spinal does), but, rather, more ship == more guns.

When, all things considered, the cost of a gun is cheaper as a fighter than as a main line ship, fighters will become more dominant in the mix.

What's lacking, specifically pertaining to this thread, is the ultra cheap ship killer. That's what we have today, but notably because of the especially hostile environment that current naval vessel operate -- notably water.

The vacuum of space is not as threatening as water, as it doesn't work against the ship the way water does. An old school line of battle warship was designed mostly to take a hammering from above the waterline, as ballistic delivery of warheads is reasonably efficient mechanism of delivering damage to the target.

Aircraft and submarines mostly messed that equation up with the delivery of torpedoes that skipped all of that heavy armor and decking used to protect the ship, and instead leveraged the water itself as a weapon against the target. Water tight chambers etc. have some value in protecting a ship, but bang per buck, 500lb of explosive delivered below the water line offers a LOT more value to the attacker than 500lb delivered above it. Properly applied, that 500lbs below the waterline bring several thousand tons of water right along with it "for free".

Spaceships don't have that problem. All of the hits are "above the waterline". A vacuum leak can be a problem in a pressurized area, but there's always been mention of the doctrine of depressurizing a ship before battle, or having the ability to section off parts of the interior and contain the pressure within the ship. Vacuum "streaming in" to a ship doesn't change the dynamics of the ship. It doesn't slow it down with huge amounts of new weight, it doesn't alter the orientation of the ship, and, also important, it doesn't permanently disable the area affected.

Consider an engineering area -- just because it's "filled" with vacuum doesn't mean that the drives or power plants stop working. The crew may have more difficulties operating it (working in vacc suits, loss of crew from the de-pressurization event, etc.), but that's a far cry from complete failure of the overarching systems. Most ship system, I think it's assumed, work fine in vacuum. However, most others work not at all under water.

Meson guns tilt the balance of power quite significantly being able to pass through to the soft, meaty center of the ship while skipping all that annoying, damage robbing armor. Larger MGs can be one hit, one kill weapons -- but they're expensive to field and deploy, requiring large ships. So, the MG is an anomaly in the otherwise very Age of Sail battle concept as put forth in Traveller ship combat.
 
More like age of steam before radio and other electronics were invented. You are on your own as a naval captain or as an admiral. The ships are armed with numerous weapons of varying size only a few of which are really ship killers and those are much like some pre-dreadnought's huge but few guns.

The introduction of fighter / attack craft into the mix is just an anomoly to that analogy.

Not such a big anomaly. Small boat work was very important during the Age of Sail. Gunboats often mounted quite large guns in the bow of a launch or barge type hull. Cutters were fast and nimble. Theory and practice of working with boats was stressed in the education of young naval officers well into the age of steam.

The very early Torpedo Boats and Torpedo Boat destroyers were very small. Small and agile like fighters are supposed to be.
 
Not such a big anomaly. Small boat work was very important during the Age of Sail. Gunboats often mounted quite large guns in the bow of a launch or barge type hull. Cutters were fast and nimble. Theory and practice of working with boats was stressed in the education of young naval officers well into the age of steam.

The very early Torpedo Boats and Torpedo Boat destroyers were very small. Small and agile like fighters are supposed to be.

That is true. And, fighters are generally not highly effective in most versions of Traveller just as those earlier gunboats and torpedo boats were.
 
Even better.

So scouts, light fighters, off the shelf purchased far and fat traders, and light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and battleships. That is your fleet mix.

I believe the specific discussion regarding scouts, light fighters and fat traders revolved around using them in the LE - i.e. Law Enforcement - role: customs, piracy suppression and so forth. As such, their typical opponents are other civilian-made ships or, at worst, pirate ships of no more than a few hundred dTons with rather weak computers in comparison to military counterparts. Aside from very limited circumstances (I discussed using a heavily armored 10-ton fighter to hold off fleet commerce-raiders once), I really wouldn't want to take the space equivalent of improvised Coast Guard cutters up against fully equipped frigates and destroyers.
 
But everything a close escort, destroyer escort does can be done with a converted merchant ship. Throw a PA Barbette on one slot, and load a triple missile turret with nukes, upgrade the sensors and computer, and add racks in the cargo area for light fighters and a 10 ton launch.

Now they can board and inspect, picket, and convoy escort.

Someone sending 5 PF Sloanes can win against 5 upgraded convoy escorts, but will lose some on the fire from them and the ships they are escorting. The answer to the PF Slones/destroyers/AHL convoy attackers is bigger convoys with 10 off the shelf conversions, and one light cruiser.
 
Note that there were age of steam experimental attempts at steam launches with guns being carried craft. They were utter failures... the nature of the ships involved made them, pound for pound, inferior to just keeping the secondaries they were slated to have replaced. (the flexibility of deployment cost 3 guns' mass for one self-mobile gun... and ate coal from the mothership's bunker, and only carried light canon.) I found out about them from an 1889 player who wanted to put the gun-skiffs as carried craft on his zeppelin; he showed me photocopies from a historical journal article.

Small attack skiffs were used in both the American Revolutionary War and the "War of Northern Agression"... but these were oar-craft and/or screw galleys with explosive rams. Man propelled torpedoes. Oh, what fun!

So, there are Age of Sail and Age of steam analogues to Traveller Fighters, but the traveller Fighters have a much better rationale than just tactical flexibility.
 
Hi,

Didn't some Pre-Dreadnoughts also carry torpedo armed steam launches?

[Edit]PS. Here's some links, including some info on "Torpedo Launch Tenders" such as the Russian "Velikiy Knyaz Konstantin"


http://books.google.com/books?id=RO...=onepage&q=torpedo armed steam launch&f=false
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_boat
http://books.google.com/books?id=Nh...=onepage&q=torpedo armed steam launch&f=false

Also see the outboard most Launch near the aft funnel on this model of the Pre-Dreadnought Knyaz Potemkin Tavricheskiy which (I believe) has a torpedo tube mounted on its bow
 
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But everything a close escort, destroyer escort does can be done with a converted merchant ship. Throw a PA Barbette on one slot, and load a triple missile turret with nukes, upgrade the sensors and computer, and add racks in the cargo area for light fighters and a 10 ton launch.

Now they can board and inspect, picket, and convoy escort.

Someone sending 5 PF Sloanes can win against 5 upgraded convoy escorts, but will lose some on the fire from them and the ships they are escorting. The answer to the PF Slones/destroyers/AHL convoy attackers is bigger convoys with 10 off the shelf conversions, and one light cruiser.

Not if you're using High Guard rules. The computer upgrade's a major modification: a Model/9's 12 EP and MCr140 (without the Fib upgrade), a Model/8's 9 EP and MCr110, fairly significant power and fuel upgrade to power them - another 27 to 30 million credits - and by the time you've done all that, you're looking seriously at running power and drives up to 5G or 6G to protect your heavy investment from being skragged by a nuke. An off-the-shelf Fat Trader needs a Power Plant 3 to run a Model 8 and then has a grand total of 3 EP available for weapons and zero agility - it's a sitting duck for incoming fire.

I'm not thrilled with the Supplement-7 DE's, but let's take one as an example. A Chrysanthemum has a Model/9 and Agility-6, gets a further -1 defensive DM due to size. Cost is about the same as two or three of your upgraded merchantmen - the computer's a very expensive piece of hardware. To have any chance to hit it, you need at least a Model/9 and a factor-3 missile (one triple turret at TL13+) or factor-4 beam, and then your odds are 1 in 36; with less computer, you need more turrets tied together to have any chance of a hit (and his odds of hitting you go up) - below about Model/7, a fat-trader-size ship's just not going to hit a Chrys.

On the flip side, the off-the-shelf merchants with the same Model/9 computer rating are going to get hit by about half the incoming shots because they have little or no agility - and the Chrys' fusion gun gets a crit roll when it hits, with about a 14 in 36 chance of essentially taking the target out of the fight with the crit. In other words, ONE Chrysanthemum against 5 upgraded convoy escorts stands a very good chance of taking them all out while taking minimal damage in return, just because of the agility difference. There is definitely a slight chance the Chrysanthemum could take an unlucky hit in the battle, but I wouldn't want to bet my convoy on it.

Ramping a fat trader up to just 5G on top of powering the computer means another MCr16-20 for power plant and MCr 24 for drives, and now your MCr100 merchantman's more than tripled in cost. Add power for a PA barbette (not recommended: the things can't hit an opponent with agility of 4 or better except in massed batteries) and that's another MCr 20 plus MCr 4 for the weapon itself. And, while they give a much better fight, two converted high-G, high-comp merchantmen are not the equal of one DE - not when a weapon factor of 5 or better can trigger critical rolls on something the size of a fat trader.

As for fighters, a light fighter's basically never going to hit a Chrysanthemum. Ever. Nothing under about 40-50 dTons can carry enough computer to hit a front-line DE - and then the fighter ends up costing about a third the cost of a full-size DE. Only way a light fighter works is if you put so much armor on it that stripping it of weapons to gain a breakthrough takes a while - and then put so many of them on the line that the convoy can reach safety or get rescued before all the light fighters can be killed. I've got a design for a 10 dT TL 15 fighter I call "Armadillo": costs about MCr14, easy to hit, but it'd take 3 or 4 hits from the Chrysanthemum to neutralize one, so a squadron of 10 could hold a Chrys off for 3 or 4 hours - though they couldn't score a hit on a Chrys in a million years.

And, again, I can field a lot more Chrysanthemums than you can field light cruisers. Remember that your convoy size is going to be dictated in part by non-military considerations: how much needs to get where and how often. Industry and commerce can't come to a halt waiting for parts and supplies to arrive - they either get there when needed, or the mere fact that you're delaying shipping to provide convoy escort is going to end up disrupting your economy more than my raids could ever manage. The only way the light cruiser works is if your budget allows you to field so many of them that there are enough to cover all the potential targets.
 
But everything a close escort, destroyer escort does can be done with a converted merchant ship.

Most navies would like input into the type of "hull" they want to operate. Things like tempo of operations have to be considered. In small navies especially, ships have to spend a lot more time "at space" or on operations than the equivalent merchant hull. The navy a hull is being built for will want to know the vessel can stand up to the type of punishment they expect it to be subject to.

I can see lots of merchant standard fittings being built into smaller warships and auxiliary vessels but would an off the shelf merchant ship stand up to the kind of use a naval crew will give it? Will conversion give you a warship or escort that has had all the weak spots and blind spots designed out?

And finally there's the matter of pride. The ships of your navy are the representation of your nation far and wide. If you start defending your space, escorting your convoys and chasing down pirates in a converted merchant ship are the neighbors going to start calling you Ferengi? :) They might start to suspect your economy isn't so good or that your tech base is substandard and that effects the economy.

Build a real warship and make a statement ;)
 
Most navies would like input into the type of "hull" they want to operate. Things like tempo of operations have to be considered. In small navies especially, ships have to spend a lot more time "at space" or on operations than the equivalent merchant hull. The navy a hull is being built for will want to know the vessel can stand up to the type of punishment they expect it to be subject to.

I can see lots of merchant standard fittings being built into smaller warships and auxiliary vessels but would an off the shelf merchant ship stand up to the kind of use a naval crew will give it? Will conversion give you a warship or escort that has had all the weak spots and blind spots designed out?

And finally there's the matter of pride. The ships of your navy are the representation of your nation far and wide. If you start defending your space, escorting your convoys and chasing down pirates in a converted merchant ship are the neighbors going to start calling you Ferengi? :) They might start to suspect your economy isn't so good or that your tech base is substandard and that effects the economy.

Build a real warship and make a statement ;)

I don't think Traveller rules capture such things as tempo of operations or blind spots, and it's not clear that such issues as applied to modern ocean-going ships would apply also to far-future spacecraft capable of interstellar flight. Per Striker/High Guard/MegaTraveller, ANY Traveller ship hull is about as strong as the armor of a WW-II T-34 tank, the result of the need to resist micrometeor impact and the odd solar flare.

No, a converted merchantman will not stand up to the kind of use a naval crew would put it to. However, merchantmen are likely to be drafted into military roles for the same reason they've always been drafted into military roles: 1) it's cheaper, 2) it's faster, 3) current circumstances make cheaper and faster a high priority.

http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3326.html

"On 25 August 1939 the passenger ship Jervis Bay of the Aberdeen & Commonwealth Line Ltd, London was requisitioned by the Admiralty and converted to an armed merchant cruiser. Conversion was completed on 15 October 1939.

"Displacement: 14164 BRT
"Armament: 8x 152mm, 2x 76mm
"Speed: 15 knots

"Career:
"October 39 - April 40: South Atlantic Station
"May 40: Bermuda Convoy Escort Force
"June 40 - November 40: Bermuda and Halifax Escort Force

"On 5 November 1940, HMS Jervis Bay (A/Capt. Edward Stephen Fogarty Fegen, RN) was shelled and sunk in position 52º41'N, 32º17'W by the German pocket-battleship Admiral Scheer while engaging the superior enemy ship in a heroic, if hopeless, fight to give the 37 merchants in the convoy HX-84 a chance to escape, because the armed merchant cruiser was the sole escort. Her sacrifice allowed many ships of the convoy to scatter and escape in the night. Capt. E.S.F. Fegen (RN) was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross."

The Royal Navy modified 54 merchantmen as armed merchant cruisers during WW-II. Typically they were given 6 to 8 8" guns and some smaller guns. They were used as convoy escorts and troop carriers, and they were made for a simple reason: the Brits needed armed ships for escort to counter German surface raiders, they needed them ASAP, and it was faster and cheaper to slap guns on something already afloat than to build something from scratch. 15 were lost during the war, most to submarines, though two were lost to surface warships and one to a German armed merchantman:

HMS Jervis Bay fought a heroic battle against German battleship Admiral Scheer, getting sunk but stalling the battleship long enough for most of the convoy to get away.

HMS Rawalpindi, another armed merchantman, was patrolling when she encountered and was sunk by German Battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau while the pair were attempting to slip past Iceland into the Atlantic; the encounter forced Scharnhorst to retreat to Germany to avoid British searchers.

HMS Voltaire was patrolling in the Atlantic and encountered Thor, a German auxiliary cruiser. Thor itself was a freighter that had been armed and converted for war, in this case for commerce raiding. The two traded shots, Thor came out on top. Thor had previously tangled with British armed merchantmen Alcantra and Carnarvon Castle in separate engagements, the battles ending with neither combatant sinking the other.

A noteworthy German converted merchantman was Kormoran, which managed to sink an Aussie light cruiser, HMAS Sydney. However, Kormoran (like most other German converted merchantmen) was designed for stealth, its weapons designed to be raised from within the ship by hydraulics or hidden behind panels. It's stealth advantage played a big role, but Kormoran was still crippled in the engagement and had to be abandoned and scuttled by her crew.*

As I mentioned above, the merchantman is no substitute for a purpose-built warship. Something as basic as a missile bay or a wee bit of armor can give the DE a big advantage over an equal weight of auxiliaries. However, the merchantman auxiliary can serve well in certain circumstances. Just as you can field more Destroyer Escorts than Light Cruisers, you can field more auxiliaries than Destroyer Escorts. Modified Fats against a Chrysanthemum plays out rather like the Jervis Bay vs Admiral Scheer engagement, but they also serve well in the role Thor played - as commerce raiders - and they can defend well against such commerce raiders. So, a balanced force would probably include cruisers, DEs, and auxiliaries as the strategic picture warranted.

*Not clear whether this exchange could play out in a Traveller far future, since the time it takes for the auxiliary to raise turrets, lock on, launch missiles, and then have missiles travel from auxiliary to target would be plenty for the target DE to throw on full agility and defenses. Beams might work, but they don't have as much punch and therefore might not dish out enough damage in that critical first shot to give the battle to the auxiliary.
 
No, a converted merchantman will not stand up to the kind of use a naval crew would put it to. However, merchantmen are likely to be drafted into military roles for the same reason they've always been drafted into military roles: 1) it's cheaper, 2) it's faster, 3) current circumstances make cheaper and faster a high priority.

http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3326.html

"On 25 August 1939 the passenger ship Jervis Bay of the Aberdeen & Commonwealth Line Ltd, London was requisitioned by the Admiralty and converted to an armed merchant cruiser. Conversion was completed on 15 October 1939.


*Not clear whether this exchange could play out in a Traveller far future, since the time it takes for the auxiliary to raise turrets, lock on, launch missiles, and then have missiles travel from auxiliary to target would be plenty for the target DE to throw on full agility and defenses. Beams might work, but they don't have as much punch and therefore might not dish out enough damage in that critical first shot to give the battle to the auxiliary.

Ah I see... "Q-Ships." Well sort-a anyway.:)
 
*Not clear whether this exchange could play out in a Traveller far future, since the time it takes for the auxiliary to raise turrets, lock on, launch missiles, and then have missiles travel from auxiliary to target would be plenty for the target DE to throw on full agility and defenses. Beams might work, but they don't have as much punch and therefore might not dish out enough damage in that critical first shot to give the battle to the auxiliary.

But as in Traveller, unlike WWII, most merchant ships are armed, steath would not need to hide the weaponry, as they could have it oppenly and yet not be seen as a warship/commerce raider/escort, as long as weaponry is within reason (a meson bay would, at least, raise suspicions). Just the fact of giving the merchant a better computer and some nukes for its missile turret will upgrade its combat performace quite a lot, without revealing it as an auxiliary.
 
The Arleigh Burke class, and the western aligned Asian versions, are intended to be the military hulls with ship killing and anti air/missile/sub use.

The LCS, which looks a lot like a Traveller CE/DE, is not really any of those things. It can do some things well, boarding near a coast, small scale anti mining...

It may be able to mount a ship killer system (almost as well as corvettes at half the price), but there is not a TL 12 and up equivalent ship killer system in the game. The hulls are also made at commercial shipyards, and appear to have issues. Almost like the idea we are using here of making minor mods to commercial ships to fill in basic boarding and picketing tasks.
 
Good points Carlobrand. The rules of course make it possible to convert a merchantman to parity with smaller naval starships. I was thinking more from a background point of view.

You're examples of auxiliary cruisers are spot on, but they are from a war time situation. For peacetime roles converting a merchantman to take on the role of an escort or small warship while possible might not give the greatest return over the useful life of the vessel.
 
Good points Carlobrand. The rules of course make it possible to convert a merchantman to parity with smaller naval starships. I was thinking more from a background point of view.

You're examples of auxiliary cruisers are spot on, but they are from a war time situation. For peacetime roles converting a merchantman to take on the role of an escort or small warship while possible might not give the greatest return over the useful life of the vessel.

Hi,

good points. HMS Sheffield sailing round the world might people with your countries 'power', but the Atlantic Conveyor unlikely to make such an impact.
Applied to a Traveller Universe you have the local's saying doesn't that
Swordie ship look like the Fat Trader that visited the other week? and presumably not being terribly impressed.

Sorry if I appear to be just restating your case.

Regards

David
 
What if America had gone head with the late 80s proposed arsenal ship? The equivalent of the TCS missile barge?

The Mongoose version would even survive dampers as an effective tool.

The actual idea was a mostly commercial type hull crammed with use first missile goodness. Stay in the middle of the protective ring of ships, flush the load, and if you are still afloat good, otherwise wait in the boats for rescue.

Now the Book 9 Jump Tug starts making sense. Cram on add on missile pods, jump in with the fleet, two turns in the line next to the cruisers, dump the pods and jump out if the ship is still intact. David Weber's fleet action dream come true.
 
Even better.

So scouts, light fighters, off the shelf purchased far and fat traders, and light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and battleships. That is your fleet mix.

Hi,

I don't think so take Mewey in the Five Sisters Spinward Marches, it is TL7 in MTU (the OTU screwed up and made it's colony Ochecate TL7 and Mewey TL5, but they should be the other way round). You have a Naval Budget of about
18,000 MCr. You need to defend two systems and would probably tender to Collace and Trexalon in District 268, Karin (Imperium) in Five Sisters, Narsil in the Sword Worlds and possibly the Dariens and Zhodani as well.

You only need Fighters, SDB's, Escorts capable of defeating Pirates and large armed merchants, because if the Imperium or Zhodani want to take you over you can only wave the white flag.

Regards

David
 
You only need Fighters, SDB's, Escorts capable of defeating Pirates and large armed merchants, because if the Imperium or Zhodani want to take you over you can only wave the white flag.

Correct, keep in mind the use cases. What you're defending, and what you're defending against.

Look at what Somali pirates are doing in "fishing boats", basically skiffs, and small arms. Yea a CVN can defend against those, but a patrol boat would be equally effective.
 
Hi,

I don't think so take Mewey in the Five Sisters Spinward Marches, it is TL7 in MTU (the OTU screwed up and made it's colony Ochecate TL7 and Mewey TL5, but they should be the other way round). You have a Naval Budget of about
18,000 MCr. You need to defend two systems and would probably tender to Collace and Trexalon in District 268, Karin (Imperium) in Five Sisters, Narsil in the Sword Worlds and possibly the Dariens and Zhodani as well.

You only need Fighters, SDB's, Escorts capable of defeating Pirates and large armed merchants, because if the Imperium or Zhodani want to take you over you can only wave the white flag.

Regards

David

Wait. Mewey, TL5-or-maybe-7-means-no-jump-tech, class-D-starport-means-only-unrefined-fuel-no-repair-or-shipyard, population 70 million on a garden earth-like world with vast regions yet to see human habitation, controls the government of an agricultural planet with a class-E starport a parsec away? Is this one of them GURPS things? How are they maintaining their ships? How are they conducting trade?

I'da thunk Quhaiathat was a better candidate.
 
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