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Traveller warships are WWII navy, but without a major piece

Like Aramis says, quicker time to target. Also means the locals don't have to wait for the next ship to show up to send out a request to repair or replace fighters: the carrier can drop off its surviving brood and then hop out to get its damaged birds repaired and pick up some replacements.

I hadn't thought about that unstreamlined bit, it's an interesting idea.

While all of the above is true, it seems expensive to have a carrier dedicated to this mission. Also, while the carrier has hoped out it is no longer on station to follow it's mission.

I think the fighters from "dirt-side" could be rotating on station at any given time. Also, for pirate suppression, how many are needed? A whole carrier compliment?

I use a "fighter tender". Without taking an historic earth WWII analogy to far, think PT boats (fighters) and a PT boat tender (often an LST). My thoughts are that this is cheaper, ties up less vessels and tonnage, and serves a similar purpose.

As for repair, a fighter transport could deliver anything from spare parts to new fighters on a run scheduled to take breakdown into consideration.

(I've read the "use a free/far/fat trader's cargo bay as a carrier for fighters" but, at one launch or recovery every 20 minute turn seems totally unworkable. IF you could even do it!)
 
While all of the above is true, it seems expensive to have a carrier dedicated to this mission. Also, while the carrier has hoped out it is no longer on station to follow it's mission.

I think the fighters from "dirt-side" could be rotating on station at any given time. Also, for pirate suppression, how many are needed? A whole carrier compliment?

I use a "fighter tender". Without taking an historic earth WWII analogy to far, think PT boats (fighters) and a PT boat tender (often an LST). My thoughts are that this is cheaper, ties up less vessels and tonnage, and serves a similar purpose.

As for repair, a fighter transport could deliver anything from spare parts to new fighters on a run scheduled to take breakdown into consideration.

(I've read the "use a free/far/fat trader's cargo bay as a carrier for fighters" but, at one launch or recovery every 20 minute turn seems totally unworkable. IF you could even do it!)


Ship fighters in crates to warehouses all over the place. Anyplace that can work on small craft could assemble the crated fighters. Fighter replenishment is then a problem of cargo ships.
 
While all of the above is true, it seems expensive to have a carrier dedicated to this mission. Also, while the carrier has hoped out it is no longer on station to follow it's mission.

I think the fighters from "dirt-side" could be rotating on station at any given time. Also, for pirate suppression, how many are needed? A whole carrier compliment?

I use a "fighter tender". Without taking an historic earth WWII analogy to far, think PT boats (fighters) and a PT boat tender (often an LST). My thoughts are that this is cheaper, ties up less vessels and tonnage, and serves a similar purpose.

As for repair, a fighter transport could deliver anything from spare parts to new fighters on a run scheduled to take breakdown into consideration.

(I've read the "use a free/far/fat trader's cargo bay as a carrier for fighters" but, at one launch or recovery every 20 minute turn seems totally unworkable. IF you could even do it!)

Lacking a launch tube or configuration that permits rapid launch, the auxiliary carrier is for all intents and purposes a tender. Calling it a carrier is a bit of polite exaggeration; if I were the crew on such a ship, I'd be happier swapping tales about my time on an auxiliary carrier during the war, rather than explaining that I was on a merchantman drafted to act as a motel for little patrol fighters. It might make it a bit easier for me to swallow the fact that my ship was drafted by the Navy and put in harm's way to protect some remote settlement of little worth. However, that's semantics - anyone's free to call it whatever suits their purpose.

Recall the prime reasons a navy will draft merchants into the combat auxiliary role: 1) it's cheaper, 2) it's faster (i.e. faster to draft and deploy a merchantman than to build and deploy a ship specific to the mission), 3) current circumstances make cheaper and faster a high priority. The fighters are the core of this concept, and they aren't designed to be killers - they're designed to be cheap, small and hard to kill. Thus, the lack of a launch tube in a ship that only carries 6 or 12 fighters in the first place is not a major handicap: the ones on station can hold their own until the reserve group arrives to reinforce them.

The intended "recipients" of an auxiliary are out-of-the-way low-pop worlds with little or nothing in the way of a starport, the kind that might see one or two ships a month. These (IMTU) are too small to warrant the services even of an Imperial destroyer-escort - or a Zhodani destroyer escort, most likely. However, one likely strategy in war would be to field cheap little privateers to harass such worlds and hopefully draw off Imperial combat assets. Worlds with more appreciable starports would have their own fighters, customs craft and patrol ships to deal with such threats. It's the more remote worlds that don't have such assets where these auxiliaries would be stationed, and in that respect the auxiliaries would function as much as transports as anything else, delivering the needed fighters then hanging around in case anything happens to the fighters and, in the course of that, serving as an orbital base for the fighters so they don't have to start from the surface. The auxiliaries would have the parts and equipment for minor repairs and maintenance as well, something those remote worlds are likely to lack.

The intended opponents of such auxiliaries are ships like the 400 dT Corsair and privateering merchantmen. Such ships would find the agile little fighter hard to hit and, with its armor, harder to kill. For this purpose I envision a 10 dT heavily armored 6G Imperial fighter with a minimal computer; I call it Armadillo. With the small computer, it has difficulty hitting targets, but it's very hard to hit and even harder for a civilian-based privateer to damage, which makes it an ideal escort for a merchant to hide behind. Being such a difficult target, it has no problem fighting until reinforcements arrive, at which point numbers offset the difficulty hitting and the opponent (who is not armored) is best advised to leave.

The little fighters can survive against Zhodani DEs, though not for long and with no hope of doing harm. However, statistically they survive long enough, consistently enough, for their reinforcements to arrive and the escorted merchant to make it to the desired destination, which is about as much as one can expect from such a duel.

The intended role of such auxiliaries is, through their fighters, to serve as escort and orbital sentinel: persuading privateers not to be lingering in orbital space waiting for prey to show up, escorting outbound ships to jump, intercepting inbound shipping to make sure there are no unwanted surprises for the port below (like a hidden squad of raiding troopers), and escorting inbound ships against the potential sudden appearance of privateers. If they found themselves up against that Zho DE, their mission would be to ensure some jump-capable ship made it to jump point to go alert the Imperial Navy of the presence of an enemy warship; the ship carrying the message might well be the carrier herself.

And, as you point out, fighters can operate from planetside if need be, so the carrier can leave whatever undamaged fighters it has behind while it transports fighters for major repairs or goes to get more fighters. As to expense: an auxiliary carrier is a draftee. Subsidized merchant contracts permit the merchants to be drafted into Imperial use in wartime, and the nature of the worlds served by subsidized merchants can mean that the newly drafted auxiliary carrier may find himself protecting a world he is familiar with.

Free-trader-based auxiliaries would be a different story - there's need to modify the ship to have arrangements to accept fighter-sized craft into its cargo bay and to launch them from that bay. However, free traders are ubiquitous and cheap: buying up and refurbishing a 40-year-old retiree would be only a fraction of the cost of a new-built trader - and the stock free trader brand new is only a fraction of the cost of a purpose-built carrier of similar size. However, that's an option more likely to be seen if there aren't enough subbies to draft.

The auxiliary is a wartime ship, expanding the capabilities of the Navy in wartime (or in some immediate local situation warranting such measures) and then going back to peacetime merchanting in the long intervals between wars.
 
While all of the above is true, it seems expensive to have a carrier dedicated to this mission. Also, while the carrier has hoped out it is no longer on station to follow it's mission.

I think the fighters from "dirt-side" could be rotating on station at any given time. Also, for pirate suppression, how many are needed? A whole carrier compliment?

I use a "fighter tender". Without taking an historic earth WWII analogy to far, think PT boats (fighters) and a PT boat tender (often an LST). My thoughts are that this is cheaper, ties up less vessels and tonnage, and serves a similar purpose.

As for repair, a fighter transport could deliver anything from spare parts to new fighters on a run scheduled to take breakdown into consideration.

(I've read the "use a free/far/fat trader's cargo bay .

as a carrier for fighters" but, at one launch or recovery every 20 minute turn seems totally unworkable. IF you could even do it!)

Hi,

apologies for the dealy I have been poring over T5

I personally go with Planetoid hulls with no Jump Drive (I would also consider moon or asteroid bases if suitable bodies available). The extra space saved can carry stores, or additional armour.

The only Jump ships needed are some Scouts, at least 2 on standby at the 100 D linit ready to Jump out and shout for help if an invasion fleet arrives and possibly a pursuit ship to chase a Pirate on standby.

Kind Regards

David
 
I personally go with Planetoid hulls with no Jump Drive (I would also consider moon or asteroid bases if suitable bodies available). The extra space saved can carry stores, or additional armour.

The only Jump ships needed are some Scouts, at least 2 on standby at the 100 D linit ready to Jump out and shout for help if an invasion fleet arrives and possibly a pursuit ship to chase a Pirate on standby.

That seems to be another very workable solution. I enjoy seeing other solutions to the same problem. Very elegant.

Salutations,
Michael
 
Something I have not seen in this discussion so far is the fact that submarines were a stealth craft, and torpedoes a stealth weapon. If you could get into a good position undetected and fire, the only option to the target was evasion *if* it detected the inbound torpedoes.

Hmm, energy weapons and spinal mounts and such... speed of light. Just how far away do you need to be to have a hope of evasion? Spinal mounts mean moving the whole ship, bays are what, big turrets or fixed weapons depending on how you look at them, and therefore slower to turn or require the ship to aim like a spinal mount, then you have the standard 1 2 or 3 weapon turret.

Something I always wondered at was the lack of close in striker defense weapons for things like missiles that managed to evade turret defensive fire, and unless you're a Battlestar you better hope the dampeners caught the nukes...

Fusion plants might put out neutrinos but what about battery power perhaps backed up an energy absorbing stealth coating? "We've come out of jump and the stealth torpedo boats are away"

Just a few random thoughts... :devil:
 
Fusion plants might put out neutrinos but what about battery power perhaps backed up an energy absorbing stealth coating? "We've come out of jump and the stealth torpedo boats are away"

Just a few random thoughts... :devil:

In the visual band & radar area you'd be fine. In the IR bands you're still a bright "light" against a black background...
 
Something I have not seen in this discussion so far is the fact that submarines were a stealth craft, and torpedoes a stealth weapon. If you could get into a good position undetected and fire, the only option to the target was evasion *if* it detected the inbound torpedoes.

Not all torpedoes were stealth weapons. Submarine ones were, of course, surface ships' ones not so much, but they were yet, but air delivered torpedoes were not so stealthy, they hit mostly because they were released closer to the target tan the other two clases and because they used to be released in salvos that made maneovering the ship less useful against them.
 
I've quickly read this over... I agree about WW1 vs. WW2 for Traveller warships.

There is one instance I know of an aircraft carrier dropping off its aircraft and getting out of IJN Long Lance torped water. The Cactus Air Force, on Guadalcanal, had lost most of its aircraft to an IJN night bombardment. One of the US carriers, I forget the name, was ordered to make a run to Guadalcanal, drop off its its pilots and aircraft then get back to Pearl before the IJN realized they were there.

The majority of the IJN ship loses were due to the US Silent Service, submarines.

Note that the Long Lance didn't have 500 pounds of explosives. It had double that with a longer range. More than one US Ship commander learned to his regret to stay out of IJN Long Lance range. It was a much better torpedo than what the US had in 1941.
 
Note that the Long Lance didn't have 500 pounds of explosives. It had double that with a longer range. More than one US Ship commander learned to his regret to stay out of IJN Long Lance range. It was a much better torpedo than what the US had in 1941.

It was arguably the best torp of the war.

A good book written by a top US Pac sub commander is called Sink 'em all.
 
Something I have not seen in this discussion so far is the fact that submarines were a stealth craft, and torpedoes a stealth weapon. If you could get into a good position undetected and fire, the only option to the target was evasion *if* it detected the inbound torpedoes.

Hmm, energy weapons and spinal mounts and such... speed of light. Just how far away do you need to be to have a hope of evasion? ...

Well, that can actually be calculated. Range to target, time it takes light to get from there to you - your EM sensors are telling you where he was, not where he is - and then again for the time it takes your beam to get from you to there. Now drives: how much can his drives change his position in that time. Calculation does not bode well for ships within a light-second or two, depending on their size.

Clearly there's some mysterious X-factor that's making it hard for you to lay that laser on the target in the first place. What that X-factor is ... well, our best answer so far is necessity: it just wouldn't be much fun if both attacker and defender killed each other on the first salvo, so we conjure an X-factor into being to advance the cause of fun.

...Something I always wondered at was the lack of close in striker defense weapons for things like missiles that managed to evade turret defensive fire, and unless you're a Battlestar you better hope the dampeners caught the nukes...

Well, we're fighting in space - turns of a thousand seconds or more, depending on the rules system, and missiles pulling 6G (or maybe more in High Guard) over that time. Impact velocities in the tens of kilometers per second. So, it's closing that last 30 or 40 kilometers in about a second. And, beyond a certain velocity it doesn't really matter if a missile is intact or a laser-riddled hulk when it hits you - it's going to hurt you. Pays to kill it while it's still far enough away that you can move out of its way.

As to nukes - I dunno. Does anyone know, if you shot one up and the warhead smacked the hull at speeds in the tens of kilometers per second, whether that would be enough to trigger fission? No one's really sure why you even still have a ship after one goes off close to the hull.

...Fusion plants might put out neutrinos but what about battery power perhaps backed up an energy absorbing stealth coating? "We've come out of jump and the stealth torpedo boats are away"

Just a few random thoughts... :devil:

HG-B summed it up pretty well: you glow in IR. Any effort to stop that glow involves making your hull a very, very, very, very, very good insulator, retaining whatever heat you produce so none of it radiates to space, and defying some physical laws along the way. And, you need to produce very, very little heat, 'cause if you produce waste heat and don't get rid of it, your crew is eventually cooked meat.

In Traveller terms, your stealthed boat is basically inert, floating motionless in space as it tries to produce as little heat as possible and retain as much of it as possible, waiting for the moment when its own life support will raise the heat high enough for the crew to have to dump heat to space. An inert object drifting motionless in space is little more than a mine - you get one shot IF he happens to get close enough and IF his mass detectors didn't detect your mass sitting quietly where no mass has any business sitting, and after that you're a battery-powered target with no way to go stealth again and too little power to survive what's about to happen next.
 
As to nukes - I dunno. Does anyone know, if you shot one up and the warhead smacked the hull at speeds in the tens of kilometers per second, whether that would be enough to trigger fission? .

most likely not. the requirements for fission on most bombs is so tight that setting off a conventional explosive in contact with the bomb will still fail to set them off. the explosive lenses used in the trigger basically need to go at exactly the right time, with "exactly" being "a few millionths of a second".

in short, the only way to detonate a nuke is when the trigger says it's time.,
 
However, there is not a torpedo

There sort of is, or should be. HG 1st edition had a rule allowing the firing, once, of ALL missiles with a +4 to both hit and penetrate. There is much in that 1st edition that should have survived. (Some actually did. Other than CarGen, the required medic rule was brought back as errata.)

At any rate, for those fighter advocates, this would make them quite relevant again, particularly at higher tech levels.

Also, the was a provision to penetrate the line and hit those ships that were screened.
 
Torpedo as a small craft, say .5m H x .5m W x 3.0m L, stackable to 18 to the Dton? Are there rules for vehicle collisions much less smallcraft/starship collisions? would guess Striker type rules for explosive contact, add decoys and have fun?

Random musings
 
Torpedo as a small craft, say .5m H x .5m W x 3.0m L, stackable to 18 to the Dton? Are there rules for vehicle collisions much less smallcraft/starship collisions? would guess Striker type rules for explosive contact, add decoys and have fun?

Random musings

I have never seen a rule for collisions of any kind, at least in CT. Though there is considerable opinion to the contrary, it seems, should you care to, and successfully avoid defending weapons, you should be able to do a kamikaze attack.
 
Torpedoes would have to be automated, too small for a kamikaze pilot (not "long lances" here) but I think the key to torpedoes would be numbers and more decoys, hope the real torpedoes get through. Also as a multiple standard missile delivery system possibly, esp. for long range engagements. Suddenly that A04 Leviathan can put 4 torpedoes out at extreme range and dump 12-24 standard missiles in one volley. And might even be able to recover the torpedo and reuse it later on.
 
I have never seen a rule for collisions of any kind, at least in CT. Though there is considerable opinion to the contrary, it seems, should you care to, and successfully avoid defending weapons, you should be able to do a kamikaze attack.

least one CT version adds to missile damage based upon compared vector, which strongly implies kinetic impact.

SS3:Missiles, page 9:
Velocity Vector: If a missile contacts its target and the sum of the vectors of the missile and the target is greater than 300 millimeters, then one extra hit on the hit location table is allowed for each 300 millimeters of vector length. Ignore fractions remaining when dividing the vector by 300 millimeters
 
least one CT version adds to missile damage based upon compared vector, which strongly implies kinetic impact.

SS3:Missiles, page 9:
Velocity Vector: If a missile contacts its target and the sum of the vectors of the missile and the target is greater than 300 millimeters, then one extra hit on the hit location table is allowed for each 300 millimeters of vector length. Ignore fractions remaining when dividing the vector by 300 millimeters

This does pose and interesting question. Why can't a fighter, like said missile, get in so close as to launch it's own missiles at such a point blank range that they couldn't miss?

If an SS3 missile can hit, then a fighter should be able to close to a 100m or so and guaranty a hit on a large ship at any rate.
 
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