Travellermap and OTU

[McPerth]

Some comments about the Travellermap in other threads have reminded me of my surprise when I first saw it and saw High Tech wotlds andstarports A (meaning jump shipbuilding capacity) well outside what is called the Chartered Space in OTU.

This surprised me, as I remember having read in some source (I cannot recall exactly which one) time ago that while expeditions far away of this Chartered Space area have found planets full of life, none of them had jump tech. "Worlds are full of life, but space is empty" was the quote, IIRC.

Even the Zhodani Core expeditions found some multi-system civilization, but it was done with STL travel, again IIRC.

So, to what point is Travellermap, with those hi tech A starports well outside the Chartered Space compatible with those former statments about no jump travel existing out of it?

NOTE: I am talking about earlier versions of the Travellermap, as it is now (I guess) being rewritten and most systems outside the main politicalentities are unsurveyed.

 

[77topaz]

Those worlds "well outside Charted Space" (I'm not even sure what, apart from the ZCR, you'd consider "well outside") are all still areas colonised by settlers from Charted Space.

As for the Zhodani Core Route, yes, there are perhaps too many high-tech worlds in those sectors, but those were also colonised from Charted Space. Even Alagoric's non-canonical Empty Stars region was colonised from Charted Space.

Also, I've always found the "only FTL in Charted Space" a stupidly anthropocentric part of the Traveller OTU.

 

[inexorabletash]

Unofficial data is unofficial.

 

[inexorabletash]

Less snarky while I'm trapped on a bus...

I agree with the sentiment. In my view, Charted Space is a bright point of light in an otherwise dark galaxy. Outside the big powers, TL should drop off rapidly and implicitly starport should as well. (World gen produces St before TL so this doesn't appear in random data, which means this needs to be intentionally imposed.) There will be pockets here and there, where NIL manage to hold together NAFAL empires, and lots of pinpricks of light where misjumped ships have managed to found sustainable colonies.

That's not to say the rest of the galaxy is empty, though. It's just not full of oxygen breathing terrestrial sophists with Jump drive. Vast swaths are the domain of powers that stomp on those specks of light, like the Hydrogens and Essaray. (The Fall of Tinath is a good example...) They travel NAFAL or with Hop/Skip. They have multiple manifestations and unfathomable motivations. Charted Space is an anomaly, a bubble where history has conspired to allow our sort of life to flourish.

For now.

 

[mike wightman]

Almost as if it were seeded here for a purpose...

 

[McPerth]

Unofficial data is unofficial.

Well. I guess implicit in my OP is the question about the officilaty (or lack of it) of the Travellermap (that keeps being a very good tool, official or not)...

Less snarky while I'm trapped on a bus...

I agree with the sentiment. In my view, Charted Space is a bright point of light in an otherwise dark galaxy. Outside the big powers, TL should drop off rapidly and implicitly starport should as well. (World gen produces St before TL so this doesn't appear in random data, which means this needs to be intentionally imposed.) There will be pockets here and there, where NIL manage to hold together NAFAL empires, and lots of pinpricks of light where misjumped ships have managed to found sustainable colonies.

It's thougher to me to accept those A rated starports than the high tech planets. The statment I remember is only about the lack of jump cultures, not about low TL.

This had always lead me to think that there could be moderate, and even high, TL societies out there, just they havn't discovdered the jump travel. NAFAL empires are canon out of the Chartered Space (at least the one the Zhodani enountered in their Core Expeditions).

I also understand that random generated systems will sooner than latter give you A rated starports, and that to make something as the Travellermap needs randomized computer assisted help, but I guess some limits may be imposed (e.g. reducing the starport class by 1, so giving us a maximum of B, and so precluding any jump capable shipbuilding).

Of course, some exceptions could also be done (e.g. along the Zhodani Core Expeditions route, where they could mount some bases), but in general, outside the Chartered Space, there should, IMHO, be no A rated spaceports, if we're to keep with previously published materials

That's not to say the rest of the galaxy is empty, though. It's just not full of oxygen breathing terrestrial sophists with Jump drive. Vast swaths are the domain of powers that stomp on those specks of light, like the Hydrogens and Essaray. (The Fall of Tinath is a good example...) They travel NAFAL or with Hop/Skip. They have multiple manifestations and unfathomable motivations. Charted Space is an anomaly, a bubble where history has conspired to allow our sort of life to flourish.

Of course the Galaxy it's not empty outside the Chartered Space. The quote was "Planets are full of life, space is empty" (sadly, I keep not finding where this quote comes from, but I'm quite sure to have read it in Traveller material. Any help if someone knows it would be welcome). Life abounds in those planets, be it oxygen breathing or whatever, just that there are no jump using civilizations.

Neither do I rule out that, far from the Chartered Space, there are similar zones (other Chartered Spaces, so to say), as the quote just talks about what the explorers have found to date (setting date, of course ), but they are far from having explored the full galaxy...

For now.

Looking forward for more comments...

 

[Timerover51]

Unofficial data is unofficial.

So, is it possible to change what is now listed as Aslan space to human space, and add some sectors further to the Rimward of the Ahriman sector? Or is it once on the Traveller Map, it stays on the Traveller Map?

Also, how does the Traveller Map work for material using a modified form of the Cepheus Engine for an alternative universe, unconnected to the Official Traveller Universe?

 

[77topaz]

So, is it possible to change what is now listed as Aslan space to human space, and add some sectors further to the Rimward of the Ahriman sector? Or is it once on the Traveller Map, it stays on the Traveller Map?

The position of the Aslan Hierate is canonical. That's not going to be changed. But there can certainly be rimward sectors added to TravellerMap in blank spaces - I can testify to that.

Also, how does the Traveller Map work for material using a modified form of the Cepheus Engine for an alternative universe, unconnected to the Official Traveller Universe?

There's already multiple apocryphal and non-OTU sectors on TravellerMap (e.g. the Judges Guild versions of the Domain of Gateway), there's just placed dozens of sectors away from Charted Space so they don't interfere with each other.

 

[inexorabletash]

Nitpick: it's "Charted Space" not "Chartered Space"

Sorry, I forget not everyone has the history of the development of the OTU pages into memory. If you want gruesome details, look at:

https://travellermap.com/doc/credits

But more usefully, what's official:

• The position of Charted Space within the galaxy
• The rough borders of the polities seen at default scale (for 1105)
• The names and locations of capitals/homeworlds shown at the default scale (for 1105)
• The names and details of sectors not dimmed when "dim unofficial data" is selected (for 1105)
• The names of some sectors which have no official data. (This is hard to discern)
• The existence of features such as the Core Route (even though the details are unofficial)

Everything else is unofficial, included for fun.

 

[Timerover51]

Nitpick: it's "Charted Space" not "Chartered Space"

Sorry, I forget not everyone has the history of the development of the OTU pages into memory. If you want gruesome details, look at:

https://travellermap.com/doc/credits

But more usefully, what's official:

• The position of Charted Space within the galaxy
• The rough borders of the polities seen at default scale (for 1105)
• The names and locations of capitals/homeworlds shown at the default scale (for 1105)
• The names and details of sectors not dimmed when "dim unofficial data" is selected (for 1105)
• The names of some sectors which have no official data. (This is hard to discern)
• The existence of features such as the Core Route (even though the details are unofficial)

Everything else is unofficial, included for fun.

Based on reading through the reference document for which you provided the link, anything that I put together would likely come under the following rubric.

Sectors that do not fit within Charted Space, for thematic or other reasons, are placed "far away" from the main area of the map.

I will not worry about linking to anything on the Traveller Map, and simply publish the sector when complete as a totally separate document I will figure that I will be adding additional adjoining sub-sectors to start with, building on the basic sector. Some of those will be to give the Space Vikings someone to raid outside of the Out Rim Sector, as they are located in one corner of the sector. Those players with itchy trigger fingers will be encouraged to use the locations on the map of another science fiction roleplaying game for their raiding until I can provide some possible targets.

My apologies for causing so much trouble.

 

[Winged Cat]

Well. I guess implicit in my OP is the question about the officilaty (or lack of it) of the Travellermap (that keeps being a very good tool, official or not)...

Mongoose Publishing has this to say, in Book 1 of its Great Rift series:

...one of the most popular astronavigational databases, generally known as Travellermap (which can be visited in real life at https://travellermap.com) by its users, was created by the Travellers Aid Society for use by its members and has since been widely disseminated.

(Along with many words to explain why it only has the data that it has, and any and all conflicts it has with other canon sources.)

I read that as saying that Travellermap is canon, according to Mongoose Publishing.

Now, Travellermap also has stuff that is non-canon, and marked as such. But if it's there and marked official, that would seem to qualify it as canon. Thus, Tash appears to have been handed a canonicity stamp in this regard, at least as far as Mongoose is concerned.

 

[77topaz]

Aside from that, there's another argument for its officiality/canonicity: the T5SS data that Traveller Map uses for its "official" sectors was directly commissioned by the T5 team (mainly Don McKinney) - the T5SS is pretty much designed to be a canonical compendium and source.

 

[Ulsyus]

I agree with the sentiment. In my view, Charted Space is a bright point of light in an otherwise dark galaxy. Outside the big powers, TL should drop off rapidly and implicitly starport should as well. (World gen produces St before TL so this doesn't appear in random data, which means this needs to be intentionally imposed.) There will be pockets here and there, where NIL manage to hold together NAFAL empires, and lots of pinpricks of light where misjumped ships have managed to found sustainable colonies.

That's not to say the rest of the galaxy is empty, though. It's just not full of oxygen breathing terrestrial sophists with Jump drive. Vast swaths are the domain of powers that stomp on those specks of light, like the Hydrogens and Essaray. (The Fall of Tinath is a good example...) They travel NAFAL or with Hop/Skip. They have multiple manifestations and unfathomable motivations. Charted Space is an anomaly, a bubble where history has conspired to allow our sort of life to flourish.

For now.

Why couldn't high-tech but limited states exist outside charted space? If Terrans could travel as far as the Spinward Marches as early as they did, they could have gone further with better jump drives after the 3I was established. I know that there'd have to be an accounting for the impediments of Aslan, Zho's, Vargr, K'kree and Hivers (the latter I can't see stopping humans on their way through) but that still leaves gaps that vessels could have leaked through in order to look for something more. What could be more notable than a high tech world with a class A starport would be the presence of those without a large starnation existing outside the bounds of charted space.

 

[mike wightman]

There are definitely polities of higher TL than the Imperium out beyond the borders of charted space - canonical fact.

The Vilani encountered them
the original owners of the Annic Nova encountered them
they pop up in Agent of the Imperium as the potential source of some of the threats
Fall of Tinath (best thing to happen in the OTU for a long time IMHO)
The first starfarers sidebar in MT

I personally have been working a lot on the Abyssals...

 

[inexorabletash]

Right - there is lots of interesting stuff outside Charted Space. It's just not (IMTU) packed solid with multi-sector TL14+ Jump-capable empires of oxygen breathers like Charted Space is.

 

[77topaz]

Right - there is lots of interesting stuff outside Charted Space. It's just not (IMTU) packed solid with multi-sector TL14+ Jump-capable empires of oxygen breathers like Charted Space is.

Sure. And that's why I'm interested in working on regions like the Orion OB1 Association and improving the Core and Rim Expeditions - to allow more of that
"interesting stuff" to see the light of day.

In the process, I have had several different ideas for interesting high-TL polities outside Charted Space...

 

[Timerover51]

Right - there is lots of interesting stuff outside Charted Space. It's just not (IMTU) packed solid with multi-sector TL14+ Jump-capable empires of oxygen breathers like Charted Space is.

Somehow, a universe packed full of TL14+ planets does not seem that interesting to play in.

 

[GypsyComet]

Somehow, a universe packed full of TL14+ planets does not seem that interesting to play in.

That might depend on whether or not they like you...

 

[Timerover51]

That might depend on whether or not they like you...

Given that the players will be looking for Battle Armor and Man-Portable Fusion Guns, it might be hard to tell the difference.

 

[dalthor]

Given that the players will be looking for Battle Armor and Man-Portable Fusion Guns, it might be hard to tell the difference.

I created one of those far-away sectors; if you've read Saberhagen's Beserker stories, I have a similar (major) hook in my campaign, dating back to the late 70's. Most of my players [were] are fellow military veterans, so that was a big hit, pun intended.

It is also set up for major exploration and intrigue, though not so much for tramp trade, which also worked well for that group. The current plot is first contact, per se.

These days, if we get together at all, it is by FaceTime or similar electronic means. For practical purposes, the campaign is sitting idle, waiting on T5.1 and enough available "same-time game time."