Trimkhana-Brilliance stats wanted

[rancke]

Did anyone ever stat out the Trimkhana-Brilliance, the jump-6 drop tank passenger liner that was destroyed in an accident mentioned in a TNS newsbrief for 186-1106?

If not, could someone maybe do it for me? I mainly need a ballpark figure for the number of passengers it carries.

It's an 800-ton liner, and in the accident 217 lives were lost and there were four survivors. There's no telling if all the all the tickets were sold out, though. Or maybe there were unusually many passengers aboard.

It's also a high-jump vessel, most likely a jump-6 design (although it could be argued that it might only be jump-5, I'd like it to be jump-6). It may or may not have low berths; I'd prefer it if it didn't, but that will, I think, require double occupancy for some of the passengers.


Hoping someone can help.

Hans

 

[Hemdian]

Currently it's a debris field (passengers=0). Not sure what it's stats were before the accident but would also like to know.

 

[aramis]

Mongoose stats OK?
Here's a rough.
_TD MCr
800 080 Td Hull
020 004 Bridge
105 200 JD V J6 (J5 with tanks retained, if GM permits)
061 160 PP V P6
013 028 MD G 1G @1400, 2G@800
040 000 Fuel, PP 2wk
040 020 Crew C PN EEE M SSS
320 160 Pass SR x80
040 004 Luxury x 40
045 009 Escape Pods x 90
020 014 Launch
010 010 Drop Tank Mounts
086 000 Cargo (80 for pass, 5 for mail, 1 ship's)
800 828 totals


Drop tank costs MCr1 empty, holds 480 Td fuel

 

[rancke]

Mongoose stats OK?
Here's a rough.
_TD MCr
800 080 Td Hull
020 004 Bridge
105 200 JD V J6 (J5 with tanks retained, if GM permits)
061 160 PP V P6
013 028 MD G 1G @1400, 2G@800
040 000 Fuel, PP 2wk
040 020 Crew C PN EEE M SSS
320 160 Pass SR x80
040 004 Luxury x 40
045 009 Escape Pods x 90
020 014 Launch
010 010 Drop Tank Mounts
086 000 Cargo (80 for pass, 5 for mail, 1 ship's)
800 828 totals


Drop tank costs MCr1 empty, holds 480 Td fuel

Thanks, Wil. I appreciate your help. Sadly, it's completely useless to me. Not your fault, but ever since HG came out, I've been using it or systems that produce the same ballpark figures, like QSDS1.5 /my favorite) and GT, and a jump drive that takes up 13% just doesn't work for me. Among other things. Escape pods? Luxuries?

I wonder if Mongoose is going to expand the system to encompass big ships or if they'll emulate CT to the point of having two incompatible ship design systems?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Thanks, Wil. I appreciate your help. Sadly, it's completely useless to me. Not your fault, but ever since HG came out, I've been using it or systems that produce the same ballpark figures, like QSDS1.5 /my favorite) and GT, and a jump drive that takes up 13% just doesn't work for me. Among other things. Escape pods? Luxuries?

I wonder if Mongoose is going to expand the system to encompass big ships or if they'll emulate CT to the point of having two incompatible ship design systems?


Hans

Two incompatible drive paradigms.

MHG capital ships is lower-bounded, however, to 2000 Td, and the core rules upper bounded to 2000Td.

Luxuries replace stewards. Major cost saver. (Note, however, MGT totally screws the merchants for stewards... a typical "qualified steward" of level 1 is needed per 4 HP. Each ton of luxuries is good for 2 HP in lieu of a steward.)

A CT HG design is dead simple, but I'm not working costs...

_TD MCr
800 Td Hull
020 Bridge
007 Model 6
042 JD 6 (J5 with tanks retained, if GM permits)
084 PP 6 TL12
013 MD 1G @1400, 2G@800
042 Fuel, PP 4wk
032 Crew C PN EEEE M
320 Pass SR x80
040 Steward SRx10
020 Launch
002 2 HP w/FC, mount laser and sand to meet mail regs.
178 Cargo (80 for pass, 5 for mail, 93 ship's)
800 totals

alternately, another 16 passengers (+2 stewards) for 88 of the ships cargo tons (of which 16 is merely shifted to passenger use).

 

[shield]

Quick question, why such a high jump number. Most Tukera stuff is J4 to follow the xboat routes. It might be more sensible to drop the internal fuel tanks to say J2 and use the extra space for more paying high passengers.

Cheers
Richard

 

[aramis]

Quick question, why such a high jump number. Most Tukera stuff is J4 to follow the xboat routes. It might be more sensible to drop the internal fuel tanks to say J2 and use the extra space for more paying high passengers.

Cheers
Richard

I didn't put ANY internal J Fuel in. That's all PP fuel. Hans stated J6, so that's what's there. 2G maneuver is the net result of 1G for the larger hull when tanks are attached.

 

[far-trader]

Another take...

Missed this yesterday, an interesting design challenge, I'm always game for such.

A question, does the news item mention any other ships involved? I'm wondering if all the casualties and survivors have to be from the Trimkhana-Brilliance? It would make the design easier (and imo better). But I have managed a design that (while not fitting my sensibilities*) does fit most of the requirements you need (had to go crew double occupancy EDIT: also has low pax, didn't parse your requirements there correctly, but to make the souls aboard it needs it).

* should have a minimum J1 (preferably J2) fuel aboard, and I agree the crew double occupancy is wrong


Ship: Trimkhana-Brilliance
Type: Far Liner
Architect: Dan Burns
Tech Level: 15

USP FL-8661662-000000-00000-0
Cost: MCr 589.300
Crew: 21 - Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, 6 Stewards, 2 Medics, 2 Flight Crew, 5 Others (dead heads, passenger wranglers, baggage handlers, security, etc.)

Cargo: 48tons High Passage Baggage
High Passengers: 48
Middle Passengers: 62
Low Passengers: 90

Fuel: 48tons for 4 weeks
Drop Tanks: 480tons for J6 (up to)
Craft: 1 x 30T Slow Boat (passenger transfer/life boat) seats 40 (plus crew of 2) comfortably.

Architects Fee: MCr 5.893 Cost in Quantity: MCr 471.440

Notes:

No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

120.5 Staterooms, 90 Low Berths

Construction time is 112 Weeks Singly, 90 Weeks in Quantity

-------

How I might "fix" it to better suit your needs and my sensibilities...

• bump the crew back to full staterooms
• make some of the "other" crew officers
• put the Middle Passengers in small staterooms (half size)*
• put J1 or J2 fuel aboard instead of all drop tanks
• add some weapons and gunner(s) for a mail contract
• up the maneuver to 2G and drop the Boat...
• ...or make the Boat bigger (Pinnace or Cutter)

* I've long felt Middle Passage should be a "shared" passage deal, 2 per stateroom or a small stateroom

-------

EDIT - A quick "fix" run...

Change the Middle Passages to double occupancy and the crew to single occupancy makes it 100 staterooms
Drop the Boat, change the flight crew to gunners and add 2 triple beam turrets (F4 x2 batteries) for defense and mail contract
Adds 30tons to cargo capacity for miscellaneous freight and mail (or retain the Boat if desired with the mail aboard it)
Allows 80tons of fuel aboard for J1 carried leaving (up to) 400tons drop tanks for (up to) J6 total

Reduces Cost by MCr4.39 (not including the savings of not having the Boat)

 

[aramis]

Dan: extra crew don't hit until over 1000Td, at least not under CT nor T20. Also, under 1KTd, a single small craft may be crewed instead by the ship's pilot and maintained by the engineer, thus negating 7 of your crew.

 

[far-trader]

Dan: extra crew don't hit until over 1000Td, at least not under CT nor T20. Also, under 1KTd, a single small craft may be crewed instead by the ship's pilot and maintained by the engineer, thus negating 7 of your crew.

Aware of it Wil, I failed to note my reasons for ignoring it

I was filling the souls aboard to reach the noted 221, I liked the passenger numbers so that left padding out the crew. Nothing in the rules says you can't have more crew. As I understand the crew requirements, they are the minimums.

 

[rancke]

Quick question, why such a high jump number.

The story goes that in early 1105, Tukera contracts with General Shipyards on Regina to build drop tanks "for use on high-capacity commercial vessels". Tukera intends to begin "high capacity service from the interior" once production is well in hand.

I'm assuming that "from the interior" doesn't mean that once drop tanks are available on Regina, Tukera will open a passenger service all the way from Capital to Regina in one go, but rather that it already has a passenger service from the interor to Mora and from Mora to Rhylanor, and that what will be opened is just the last stretch from Rhylanor to Regina.

I'm also assuming that the link from Mora to Rhylanor is via Heroni, two 6-parsec legs.

The link from Rhylanor to Regina would be via Echiste, two 5-parsec legs, which is why it could be argued that the Trimkhana-Brilliance would be a jump-5 design. However, it's also possible that at first Tukera would shift some of its jump-6 ships to cover the new route until new ships could be built.

But maybe it would be better to assume a jump-5 design. It would give room for a few more passenger cabins.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Only a handfull of SR, Hans. 1% of 800 is 8 Td. That's 3% is 24. That adds a whopping 32 tons, which turns to 8 SR, of which one goes to another steward.

 

[rancke]

Only a handfull of SR, Hans. 1% of 800 is 8 Td. That's 3% is 24. That adds a whopping 32 tons, which turns to 8 SR, of which one goes to another steward.

Quite right. With drop tanks the trememdous difference between jump-5 and jump-6 is much less trememdous. But not totally non-existent. The drives cost a bit less too. It all adds up. As for stewards, if the extra passengers are Mid Passage (or economy (i.e. double occupancy)), the breakpoint is one steward per 50 of them, so those 8 (or 16) more passengers may not "trigger" an extra steward.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Trimkhana-Brilliance Express Liner

My final crack at the J5 version, my sensibilities satisfied (1), and your requirements (2) met, as best as able (you can guess where I lean )...

(1) TL set by minimum required, in this case TL14 for J5; Minimum 1 parsec of jump fuel aboard; Civilian/Merchant ships lose half hardpoints for carried craft and drop tanks, so just 4 hardpoints; Reserved staterooms for Gunners included; Officer aboard (as passenger stateroom) and double occupancy for other crew; Middle Passengers as double occupancy staterooms (to get required souls aboard); High Passengers get 1ton of cargo space each for baggage; Maneuver 2 to retain minimum Maneuver 1 with drop tanks attached

(2) 221 souls aboard required low berth passengers and some double occupancy to meet your news story casualty total in one ship; Jump 5 range with drop tanks (could even make 6 parsecs in two jumps with J5 drop tanks and J1 internal)


Ship: Trimkhana-Brilliance
Type: Express Liner
Architect: Dan Burns
Tech Level: 14

USP XR-8652552-000000-00000-0

800ton streamlined flattened sphere hull
Jump 5, Maneuver 2 (agility 2), Power 5 (40EP)
Computer: model/5
Hardpoints x4: 4tons reserved, no weapons included
Fuel: 120tons - Jump 1 and 4 weeks aboard, fuel scoops, no purifier
Fuel: 320tons - Jump 4 drop tanks (total Jump 5)
Cargo: 48tons - High Passenger Baggage

Staterooms x90, Lowberths x90
High Passengers: 48 in single occupancy
Middle Passengers: 62 in double occupancy
Low Passengers: 90 in single lowberths
Crew: 21 - Captain in single occupancy stateroom; Ratings in double occupancy staterooms: Pilot, Navigator, Chief Engineer, Engineers x4, Chief Steward, Stewards x6, Ship's Doctor, Medic, and Gunners x4 (optional)

Small Craft Hanger: 1 x 30T Slow Boat

Architects Fee: MCr6.327
Prototype Cost MCr632.690
Cost in Quantity: MCr506.152

Costs do not include weapons, munitions, expendables, small craft, or drop tanks.

Construction time: 112 Weeks Singly, 90 Weeks in Quantity

...did I miss anything?

 

[aramis]

The OTU 3I doesn't allow DO for commercial passengers.

(T20 added it for supporting ATU's.)

 

[far-trader]

The OTU 3I doesn't allow DO for commercial passengers.

(T20 added it for supporting ATU's.)

Yep, it's an old MTU rule (one I'm sure others have also used for ages ). I'm almost certain I saw it in official use before T20 (TNE? T4?). Anyway, it's only because I see no other way to reach the 221 casualties if only the Trimkhana-Brilliance is involved. Throw another ship (collision) into the mix and it's easy (and an easy fix, just change the Mid Pax to 31). It's that or a ridiculous number of Low Pax

EDIT: Also, while we're nitpicking for clarity, the OTU 3I of CT doesn't allow commercial or private ships to put crew in double occupancy either, only military ships have that option. However...

...in HG there is the rule for Small Craft Staterooms muddling up the whole thing. A half size, 10th cost (or 5th cost? more errata) quarters for one or two. So double occupancy of a full stateroom doesn't seem a bad rule bend at all

 

[aramis]

you can replace high with 8 low...

221-98=123
123/7=17.571428571428573

So 8 non-steward crew, 90-18=72 Pass & Stewards (8 S, 64 HP)
18x8=80+64=124 LP

So one can easily do it by having 18 crew, 64 HP/MP, and 123 of 124 LP. (Mind you, you'd never fill that with Bk2)

Or, by having the remainder be on some other ship.

 

[far-trader]

It's not quite adding up for me, but yeah something like that would work.

...(Mind you, you'd never fill that with Bk2)

True Another MTU adaptation. B2 trade is specifically for J1 Free Traders, nothing else. My basic fix is roll for each J#, so the J5 T-B would get 5 rolls on the tables for each of High Pax, Mid Pax, Low Pax, Major Freight, Minor Freight, and Incidental Freight. Makes filling the bigger, longer jump ships possible.

Or, by having the remainder be on some other ship.

The simplest option, probably the best, but I don't know the news story to know if it is clear it was just the T-B involved or not.

Heh, or maybe they had a bunch of stowaways

 

[rancke]

The OTU 3I doesn't allow DO for commercial passengers.

Only if you consider all game rules to be reflections of immutable natural laws.

There are various kinds of game rules. There are those that reflect natural law (at some level), such as "All mansized beings aboard a ship uses up 143 credits worth of air, food, water, and other basic necessities per day". There are those that reflect in-universe laws and regulations, such as "By Imperial law, all commercial vessels must accept a Mid Passage voucher as full payment for a single passage of any length in a single stateroom. Such vouchers can be cashed at any representative of the issuing organization for the documented cost of the passage, or Cr8,000 if the ship is not employed by a regular company." And there are those that are designed to make the game run a bit smoother, such as "Life support costs an average of Cr1450 for any 8-10 day period, unless you players are willing to do the bookkeeping, in which case we'll make it Cr145 per day. And, no, I'm not going to give you a discount for especially skinny passengers."

Double occupancy is allowed for non-commercial vessels. It is therefore not against Imperial safety regulations. Apart from that, why would the Imperium care if a passenger liner sold 'Economy Passage' for Cr6000 (or whaterver) per passenger, as long as it still gave out single staterooms for mid passage vouchers?



Hans

 

[rancke]

So one can easily do it by having 18 crew, 64 HP/MP, and 123 of 124 LP. (Mind you, you'd never fill that with Bk2)

As I see it, Tukera (or any other regular shipping line) don't DO Book 2 type trade. Those rules are strictly for Free Traders. Tukera's ships jump once every ten days, load up with passengers who've been sold tickets in advance by the local Tukera factor, and jump again.


Hans