*chuckle*
type 23 Corvette
- Thread starter Xerxeskingofking
- Start date
*chuckle*
Ships don't, but the components do. The restrictions are on the Tech Level 2-page spreads. TL9 can only build A-D.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
When rated using the LBB5'80 USP that must include a TL. Not when used in a LBB2 context.
Quite, TL-15 drives (e.g. Z drives) are presumably only available in TL-15 environments, such as the Imperium. The Solomani and Zhodani would have to make do with max TL-14 drives.
No, a custom M-drive from LBB5 (330 Dt) is the same from TL-7 to TL-15.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Agreed, but I have never interpreted LBB2 as restricting what ships that can be built on what shipyard. Strict TL limitations were only introduced with LBB5'80. LBB5'79 explicitly allowed imported components.
Note that LBB3 says:
According to A1 the General Shipyards shipyard at Regina (then TL-10) could produce ships up to 5000 Dton, hence using at least W-drives (TL-15). Presumably the drives must have been imported?
Of questionable canonicity, but purportedly by MWM:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=36991Special Supplement n Starports! said:
JTAS#10 has a published LBB5 TL-12 design (Wasp class) with Z-drives, which would presumably be incorrect unless standard LBB2 drives can be imported.
Why wouldn't there be "spare" Z drives someplace? Just because they may be uncommon, doesn't mean they don't exist.
And, even if there weren't, so what? Ships take months to build, so there's likely plenty of float to get your Z drive ordered and shipped in time for local assembly.
And the cost of shipping several MCr drives is just fractions of 1% of the cost of the drive. Lost in the noise.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Agreed, they are probably widely available.
Since they have nearly magical properties, they make the most profitable/capable ships in CT. They would be the backbone of the major trade routes.
"Here at Fred's Space Junk, we have just the thing you need. Of course, you may have to spend a few weeks getting it removed from the hulk . . . after you find the right one . . .but I'm sure we have one. Somewhere."
The Type S (p.11) shows as TL 9. In the LBB5 context it would be TL 11 since it is J-2 capable.
True, but not that relevant.
Except it's not -- it's TL-limited based on drive rating.
At TL-7 it can provide 2G in up to a 6600Td hull. It can never provide 3G no matter how small a hull you put it in.
At TL-8, it can provide up to 5G in a 2357Td hull (less in larger ones). It can never provide 6G.
At TL-9, it can provide 6G in a 1941Td hull or smaller, or less in larger hulls.
A size Z maneuver drive is always TL 15, but its performance is entirely dependent on the hull it is in.
(I'll concede that this doesn't matter once you're at TL-9+, which are the TLs we're talking about in this thread -- but it does matter for Jump Drives.)
And under LBB2, there's no provision for building a 3000Td ship until TL-13 when Size Q drives become available. (Can you really build a ship for which you can't build any effective drives -- or rather, wouldn't it be just a 3000Td orbital station?)
Finally, it comes down to this (as I noted upthread):
"The technological level of the building shipyard determines the the technological level of the ship being constructed (a class A shipyard on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship). Equipment and components of a starship may always be equal to or less than the ship's tech level." (LBB5:'80, p. 20). Which is to say that the ship's tech level is that of its highest TL equipment or component as constructed. If you want a higher TL component (say, a maneuver drive) in a ship built at a lower TL, you have to refit it in accordance with the rules in TCS.
That was to Aramis but I'll take it:
A1 was published after HG '79 but before LBB '80. 5000Td was larger than LBB2 '77 provided for (but LBB '81 allowed). At TL-10, LBB5 allows ships of up to 10KTd (computer limited, Mod/4), at 6G but only J1. I'm pretty sure the 5000 ton construction capability was intended as setting fluff meaning "they build really big ships" in the LBB2 context, not a declaration that Regina built Size W drives.
Does the component tonnage work out for LBB2 drives, or was it a LBB5 design with the drive letters assigned for LBB2 compatibility?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
LBB2 77 edition allows for the construction of up to 5000t ships, it is only the standard hulls table thay caps out at 1000t - you always build 1000+ ton ships as custom hulls.
The OTU setting does not use the LBB5 80 edition rules as written, nor does it use the CT77 or 81 RAW
The rules in LBB5 are guidelines for referees putting large ships into their universes and those rules while they look similar are very different with different drive paradigms and TL paradigms to the CT rules.
The application of HG81 rules via TCS likewise are guidlines for how you can do it, and the Islands campaign is an example set within a very different 'bubble' of OTU reality. FFW clashes with TCS, and TCS shipbuilding budgets were long since decanonised for use as exemplar of the OTU Third Imperium.
Sometimes the similarities between rule books and supplements to the setting disguise the fact that the setting did not use the rules as written - they are a toolbox and GDW used them as such to build their setting, which is impossible to make consistent with inconsistent and contradictory rules.
The OTU setting does not use the LBB5 80 edition rules as written, nor does it use the CT77 or 81 RAW
The rules in LBB5 are guidelines for referees putting large ships into their universes and those rules while they look similar are very different with different drive paradigms and TL paradigms to the CT rules.
The application of HG81 rules via TCS likewise are guidlines for how you can do it, and the Islands campaign is an example set within a very different 'bubble' of OTU reality. FFW clashes with TCS, and TCS shipbuilding budgets were long since decanonised for use as exemplar of the OTU Third Imperium.
Sometimes the similarities between rule books and supplements to the setting disguise the fact that the setting did not use the rules as written - they are a toolbox and GDW used them as such to build their setting, which is impossible to make consistent with inconsistent and contradictory rules.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Irrelevant, since it does not use custom LBB5 drives. The highest TL components are the drives at TL-9.
Extremely relevant if you want to use Z-drives (TL-15) aka the really good drives.
In LBB2 drives are standard components that can be imported from any convenient manufacturer, at least as far as I understand.
Not in LBB2, not in LBB5'79, just in LBB5'80 and standard (LBB2) drives seems to be an exemption.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Yes, I agree that is probably means "they build really big ships", but I still note that it would be impossible by RAW, unless standard drives could be imported.
The ship cannot be built without standard Z-drives.
As noted, it's entirely RAW if HG is available, and it was. The big ships could only be J-1, though.
There's also the note that General is out of the military starship business. Their TL-14 yards on Efate and Pixie might have been substantially larger when the Kinunir class were built. But even then, how did they build a TL-15 HG ship at TL-14? (TL-15 components: Particle Accelerator turrets, Black Globe Generator.)
This goes to Mike Wightman's point that they wrote the story first and used the rule sets as a toolbox. They were writing the background setting within a small-ship universe, even though HG rules existed. The Kinunir itself was built with HG, and was presented as a formidable line-of-battle warship. In a small-ship universe, it is one; in a big-ship universe it's maybe an escort.
Hmmn. Don't have JTAS 10.
Because they're rather expensive, and that's a lot of MCr to tie up in machinery just sitting in a warehouse when you could be investing it in something that generates revenue.
And yes, there may be spares. They may not be available for purchase on the open market, though. (A moot point since this thread concerns Imperial shipbuilding, but applicable to commercial ships.)
I guess what really bothers me about this is the notion that while HG TL requirements are sacrosanct, the ones in LBB2-3 seem to get handwaved.
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I have always liked the notion that the LBB2 drives are a different "architecture" than HG. (IMTU technobabble, "integrated" vs "discrete" drives). So LBB gives you higher performance but it's only available at small sizes before the approach reaches its limits and you have to cut over to a different architecture to get the big ships to work.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Which doesn't explain the underlying paradigm shift flaw.
Using HG80
a TL9 culture may discover the jump 1 drive.
Using CT 77 a TL9 culture can build a jump 6 xboat if you allow the xboat fudge, if not they can definitely build a jump 4 ship.
Using CT 81 a TL9 culture can build jump 3 ships due to computer limits.
A TL10 HG culture has no improvement in jump theory or engineering, while a CT 77 can still dabble with jump4-6 and a CT81 culture can now advance to jump 4.
So a TL 9 or 10 setting using the rules as written is going to be very different depending on the rules you go with.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Using LBB5 it would not have been:
but "they can only build very small ships".
Kinunir may be designed with LBB5, but it firmly stuck in a LBB2 setting, where a "battlecruiser" is 1200 Dt and has no major weapons, meaningful defences, or even armour.
When published LBB5'79 was current and it explicitly allowed imported higher-tech components. The whole "TL-13 worlds can only build TL-13 ships" idea was not invented, or at least published, yet.
Efate and Pixie are TL-13, not TL-14.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Perhaps because LBB5'80 was very specific about TL limitations, but LBB2 did not hint at anything like it?
