Unconventional employment of a Far Trader

[rancke]

If you were using a Far Trader to ferry people and equipment from one side of a world to another to establish a new settlement, how many people do you think you could move per trip? (Practically, not legally; I'm assuming the trip won't overload life support in the few hours it lasts).


Hans

 

[BytePro]

This would depend on whether you are looking for 'emergency' capacity where discomfort is irrelevant, or just moderately uncomfortable.

For the later, using economy short-haul (under 6 hrs) commercial airline seating:

• Pitch (point to point front to back) worst I find is AirAsia at ~75 cm. With industry worst width, ~50 cm (nominally extrapolated from 17 inch 'cushion width').
• Yields a 2x3 matrix of seats per 1.5 m deck square.
• So, I'd call it 2 rows, 5 seats across, with space for walking aisle per deckplan dton.

I.e. 10 people per available deckplan dton. If it was an emergency and one packed them in like cattle - 2~2.5 times that (aisle space being more 'dynamic').

[Had no idea it would work out to such a simple multiplier!]

 

[rancke]

This would depend on whether you are looking for 'emergency' capacity where discomfort is irrelevant, or just moderately uncomfortable.

The background is that the democratically elected leader of the planet's biggest settlement has a number of political opponents that he wants to get rid off in a way his adherents won't object to. So he decides to establish an exile settlement on the far side of the world. Available transportation is tied up and besides, he wants the whole thing over as fast as possible to present the voters with a fait accompli. So he discreetly assembles a bunch of colony equipment and supplies, waits for a suitable freetrader to come along[*], and then charters it to transport the exiles and their equipment as fast as possible to deny the opposition time to rally. Note that this means no time to install special accomodations in the Far Trader.

[*] In accordance with my views on the realities of tramp freighting, said ship will be a jump-2 ship rather than a jump-1 ship, hence a Far Trader rather than a Free Trader.​

I.e. 10 people per available deckplan dton. If it was an emergency and one packed them in like cattle - 2~2.5 times that (aisle space being more 'dynamic').

So assuming roughly one dT of equipment per exile, we're talking about 60 exiles per trip. (Six passenger cabins and 65 dT cargo space).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Given 3m ceilings, and litters, with liters 0.5m x 2m, with 0.75m vertical, that's 4 high, 3 across, no aisles, you can pack in 36 per 2Td of cargo space. Adding narrow end-aisles, 48 per 3Td, with 0.5m aisles every other row. You can distribute food and water if needed. 16 per Td, in relative safety and almost passable comfort, with the ability to serve food and water. Run some mild sedative gas.

Given the same 3m ceilings, putting the cargo space in 0.25G to load, and using wooden racks for "seating" you can probably get 20 or 30 per Td... just don't suffer power failure.

Standing, 1m x 0.3m... which, given a dTon's 1.5x3... that's 15 standing. with some comfort. You can (like the japanese do) probably pack 1.5x that, and if you put a rack at 2m, get some lying up there, too, probably another 6. Don't make any sudden maneuvers that are uncompensated.

Keep the bay in 0G, you can probably pack in as many as 30 or even 40, but your compensators failing will be catastrophic.

A Type A could thus carry 60 people and their luggage in the 63 ton cargo bay. A type R could run about 90.

Note that a stateroom is intended for 2, but you could put 3 per bunk seated, another two in chairs, and one to 6 on the floor, plus another two-to-six in the halls on the floor. So 9-14 in the room...

 

[Enoki]

Assuming they simply stood packed in like cattle say two to four per 1.5m square of open space on the vessel. If the cargo bay is higher than 3m you could install a temporary deck above the normal one and cram in another layer as well. Passageways and any open space could be used the same way.

 

[rancke]

Assuming they simply stood packed in like cattle say two to four per 1.5m square of open space on the vessel. If the cargo bay is higher than 3m you could install a temporary deck above the normal one and cram in another layer as well. Passageways and any open space could be used the same way.

No time to install special accomodations in the Far Trader as I mentioned above.


Hans

 

[Enoki]

I would think that ZG would be a bad idea. If you had even a few that were sensitive to that (and from what I've read many people are) they get a bout of sickness and start hurling it could get ugly real fast...

 

[CosmicGamer]

Isn't there more to consider?

Are these people all willing Travellers? Security issues like rioting, vandalism, sabotage, hijacking.... or just fights "you stepped on my foot!" "quit pushing me!" "if you don't shut that child up I'll do it myself!"...

No mention of how long the trip may take. Perhaps not long enough for food but hydration. Bathroom facilities.

Some people might freak out do to claustrophobia, first time flying... (sounded like a very low tech system if they have no means of transporting people themselves)

If it's a new settlement being set up and transportation between settlements is an issue, won't they need everything to become self sufficient? Farming equipment and animals. If somehow high tech shelters were gathered they might not take up a lot of space but you'd still need everything that goes into them. Bedding, cooking, cleaning, environmental needs... You might need tools and materials for making the smithy, bakery, grain mill, lumber mill.... Enough food to survive until they can sustain themselves. One dT per person seams a bit low. I haven't paid much attention to what colonization kits might be listed in the varied books. Perhaps somewhere it might indicate size vs # of people they support - if it gets into that level of detail.

If a new settlement is created with high tech colonization kits could it lead to them being a much more advanced and powerful society than the one they came from? Basing this on
1) my assumption that a society that doesn't have grav vehicles, blimps, planes, trains, cars, or even horse drawn wagons to transport people and needs outside help is probably pretty low tech
2) my assumption is that an interstellar colonization kit would be trying to provide for the start up of a colony that would not be far from the tech level that created the kit. Fairly high tech. Perhaps solar powered unmanned farming, mining, and construction machines? The ability to maintain equipment and construct spare parts. Power plants. Mini factories/3D printers. Transportation for exploring, getting to resources and carrying them back to a settlement. A variety of drones. Perhaps even a worldwide satellite system for weather observation, communications, and surveying. A means for educating people at a tech level comparable with the colonization kit. Weaponry for protecting a colony from local dangers as well as passing outside dangers such as a tramp freighter that might decide it's easier to just steal from them than trade. Again, I'm sure there are sources that detail what might be in a colonization kit.

 

[rancke]

Are these people all willing Travellers? Security issues like rioting, vandalism, sabotage, hijacking.... or just fights "you stepped on my foot!" "quit pushing me!" "if you don't shut that child up I'll do it myself!"...

I provided a bit of background in my follow-up post above. These people are being exiled; they're probably not too happy bout it.

No mention of how long the trip may take. Perhaps not long enough for food but hydration. Bathroom facilities.

From one side of a world to the other. World is size 7. Getting from surface to orbit of a size 7 world takes 35 minutes. I would guess that 70 minutes (up to orbit, down again) is a reasonable figure, but I could be wrong.

Some people might freak out do to claustrophobia, first time flying... (sounded like a very low tech system if they have no means of transporting people themselves)

The people who are forcing them into exile are unlikely to care.

If it's a new settlement being set up and transportation between settlements is an issue, won't they need everything to become self sufficient? Farming equipment and animals.

The world (it's Regina, BTW) has a biosphere just as complex as that of Earth but quite hospitable to humans.

If somehow high tech shelters were gathered they might not take up a lot of space but you'd still need everything that goes into them. Bedding, cooking, cleaning, environmental needs... You might need tools and materials for making the smithy, bakery, grain mill, lumber mill.... Enough food to survive until they can sustain themselves. One dT per person seems a bit low. I haven't paid much attention to what colonization kits might be listed in the varied books. Perhaps somewhere it might indicate size vs # of people they support - if it gets into that level of detail.

One MT description of an Aslan ihatei transport said that they carried 1.5 dT of colony supplies per ihatei. I cut that a bit to represent skimping on the part of the people paying for it.

If a new settlement is created with high tech colonization kits could it lead to them being a much more advanced and powerful society than the one they came from?

The original settlement has a population of a bit under 300,000 at this time while the first load of exiles number around 700.

Basing this on
1) my assumption that a society that doesn't have grav vehicles, blimps, planes, trains, cars, or even horse drawn wagons to transport people and needs outside help is probably pretty low tech

I didn't say that they didn't have vehicles; I said they didn't have any vehicles to spare for transporting people literally halfway across the world. I also said the leader had an ulterior motive for getting the whole event over with as quickly as possible. The knowledge TL is 12, but the infrastructure is fairly small and I'm also assuming that grav modules require a large population base to support manufacture, so the only grav vehicles are imported (and rare).

2) my assumption is that an interstellar colonization kit would be trying to provide for the start up of a colony that would not be far from the tech level that created the kit. Fairly high tech.

All colony supplies are locally produced.

Perhaps solar powered unmanned farming, mining, and construction machines? The ability to maintain equipment and construct spare parts. Power plants. Mini factories/3D printers. Transportation for exploring, getting to resources and carrying them back to a settlement. A variety of drones. Perhaps even a worldwide satellite system for weather observation, communications, and surveying. A means for educating people at a tech level comparable with the colonization kit. Weaponry for protecting a colony from local dangers as well as passing outside dangers such as a tramp freighter that might decide it's easier to just steal from them than trade.

The leader is trying to get rid of these people without alienating his voters. He's going to provide only the minimum needed to accomplish that. That means enough supplies and equipment to establish an agricultural settlement, no more.


Hans

 

[MCEvans]

To me a major bit of info needed how many total need to be exiled?
This will determine the number round trips that need to be made.

A suggestion I would make would be to take the supplies and 12-18 active people to do the unloading and setting up on the first round trips as needed, seeing that one round trip would be 12-18 hrs each (6 hrs one-way + loading and unloading) with the last trip being with the bulk of the exiles of which I would have them 'knocked-out' (there are current drugs that today will put you to sleep for 6-8 with out even trying) put the person in a sleeping bag and loaded into the Far Trader's hold in ZG (just tie a rope around several and you have 'balloons' of people).

If less than 100 1st trip supplies, 2nd trip 12-18 in the staterooms the rest sitting on the cargo deck floor with a water bottle and a port-a-potty in each corner of the hold. If families are involved maybe an extra trip might be in order for good will.

If the crew is smart they might want to set-up a trade agreement with the exiles as this has just balkanized the planet and with some investment can set up a basic star/space port (D-E/H-G).

Edit: several of my questions you answered while I was writing. My ideas may still have merit as 'jumping off points' or maybe totally irrelevant.

 

[BytePro]

The background is that the democratically elected leader of the planet's biggest settlement has a number of political opponents that he wants to get rid off in a way his adherents won't object to. So he decides to establish an exile settlement on the far side of the world. Available transportation is tied up and besides, he wants the whole thing over as fast as possible to present the voters with a fait accompli. So he discreetly assembles a bunch of colony equipment and supplies, waits for a suitable freetrader to come along[*], and then charters it to transport the exiles and their equipment as fast as possible to deny the opposition time to rally. Note that this means no time to install special accomodations in the Far Trader.

[*] In accordance with my views on the realities of tramp freighting, said ship will be a jump-2 ship rather than a jump-1 ship, hence a Far Trader rather than a Free Trader.​

So assuming roughly one dT of equipment per exile, we're talking about 60 exiles per trip. (Six passenger cabins and 65 dT cargo space).


Hans

Ah, well, several things come to mind...

People first. Equipment, readily seen at the landing site, would be coming on 'later' trips. I.e., no fault of the leader if someone 'mis-appropriated' the equipment that was 'intended' to be delivered...

Some simple benches, whatever was available in the hold, and mostly their own luggage should suffice for 'seating' during the 'short' hop. No need to worry about aisle space, simply pack them in (FILO).

Assuming the exiles are including their families - a dissuasion from resistance and consistent with phony 'PR' about the new 'settlement', and to avoid unpleasantness after - I'd probably use 18 average per cargo hold deckplan dton.

If you are just using the staterooms - and actual staterooms averaging 2 dtons - you won't get very many. I'd also think the crew of the ship would be more comfortable just allowing use of the hold... 'loyalists' would ride along in the staterooms to 'assist' the colonists.

Re: lifesupport, temporary means could easily be included (O2 tanks) - or just maintain low altitude and crack the hold doors. oo

Aside from restriction against installing 'special accomodations', 3m is usually nominal deck height, not available height.

 

[samuelvss]

Carpets on the floor, sleeping pills and lay them down down like a corderoy road. Easily 5/ton, allowing for walkways for security to walk in and "tranq" anyone who wakes prematurely.

 

[rancke]

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.

I've been working on a bit of campaign chrome, an excerpt from a book analogous to something timeover51 quoted in another thread, A Narrative of the Expedition to Botany Bay by Watkin Tench.

As it turned out, the difference between the Botany Bay expedition and the way I saw the Pomona Cove expedition working quickly made it impossible to just "cut and replace" various bits of timeover's quotation. But it served as a springboard for my imagination. The historical fact of the establishment of the Pomona Cove Exile Camp by Ezekiel Gordon, 8th Mayor of Credo, in 173 is something I came up with a long time ago, but I haven't had any notion of the details until now.

I don't intend to provide excessive details about the numbers involved. I just wanted the figures to be somewhere inside the ballpark. That I hope your help has provided me with.

The book A Narrative of the Trip to Pomona Cove was written by the lieutenant in charge of the platoon of the Mayor's Guard sent to provide security at the camp during the transfer.

So far I'm leaning towards the following sequence of events: Lieutenant Bibi James and her platoon escort the main group of political prisoners (some 5 or 600 in all) from the holding camp to the starport. Here the prisoners (excuse me, detainees) are marched into the cargo hold. After the hold has been closed, the platoon and the civilian commisioner in charge of the operation and a couple of aides stuff themselves into the six cabins and the passenger lounge.

The ship flies them to the designated site for the exile camp and everybody turns out. The ship then starts shuttling back and forth carrying supplies and equipment to the camp, about two hours to the round trip. Each time another handful of exiles is included. After ten trips the Commisioner and the guards get into the ship and is taken back to Credo.

The lieutenant mentions the total number of exiles (324 men, 297 women, and 152 children), I'm going to be vague about how many were in the first lot and how many in the subsequent trips.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

No time to install special accomodations in the Far Trader as I mentioned above.


Hans

Not even some seats akin of those on a cinema?

If you could, by installing cramped seats they would amount (according to MT) at 2 kl per seat, being tempotary seats (and so not as well distributed, I'd say about 2.5 kl/seat, so about 4-5 per ton without any comfort, but not too packed. As the trip would be about 2 hours (you said 70 minutes, but I'll allow time for landings, loading and unloading), you could do about 7 trips a standard day average (counting some time lost for many reasons, othrwise you could do 8).

If they're using a free trader, with 82 tons of cargo, it could carry about 330 people per trip, so about 2300 people per standard day.

Another way to count it would be (also thinking on cinema-style seats) you could cramp about 4 persons per 1.5 side d square. As one ton is about 2 squares, you could cramp up to 8 people per ton. Allowing about 10% of space for corridor space, you could cramp up to about 600 people per trip (about 4000 per standard day).

I'd take the supplies in separate flights, so that you can make better use of the cargo bay. being a hospitable world, I guess the 1.5 ton per colonist could be reduced somewhat. After all, for the first months (while the colony is being built), they could be supplied from the home city if needed, so not all supplies must be taken along the colonists. I guess the 1.5 ton per colonist allows for any emergency equipment as they don't know what kind of planet will they colonize and they will be out of contact for months. After all, the 82 dton worth of one trip hold is more than 1100 kl, so quite a lot of supplies.

As the seccurity issues, they could be arranged by some guards accompaining the flights (in the staterooms, that, after all will be empty for the same seccurity reasons), by drugging the "passengers" (after all you only need to have them calm for about 2-3 hours) or by threats as deprezurizing the hold or releasing tranquilizer gas on it.

EDIT: Stupid me, I forgot about the return trips, so the number of trips/standard day should be just about 4, modifying the numbers acordingly to about 1300 people/standard day in the first case and to 2400 people/standard day in the seccond.

Sorry about that

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Yes, Hans, it will definitely take more than one trip to get 600 folks halfway 'round the world in a Far Trader. I think you could get away with 2 trips, if they bring their personal baggage (and it isn't much more than a suitcase each).* Move the women first, with enough men to protect them in the wilderness, then move the kids as a bunch, with the rest of the men (as a way of keeping them from trying anything).

I also would think the trip would be closer to a couple of hours, one way, minimum. 35 minutes to orbit is a fairly steep climb, so they'll have to do a partial orbit before descent. (I think current hypersonic jet plans talk about a couple of hours going halfway 'round the Earth.)

If you're letting them start a colony, there will have to be critters involved (various reasons, including meat). That will be a fun trip. (Remember the episode of Firefly where they deliver the cows? Yeah. And, there's the possibility of stampeding in the cargo hold.) Betting that part gets a mention in the story.

Probably a dozen trips once the people are delivered. That works out to a few days (4 hours round trip, 16 hour days, 12-14 total trips).

Bathroom facilities.

Yeah, a two hour trip. As long as the soldiers force everyone to "go before you go" it shouldn't be a problem. Unless, of course, someone just can't wait that long.......

Some people might freak out do to claustrophobia, first time flying...

The people who are forcing them into exile are unlikely to care.

Doesn't matter if they care. If someone freaks out (because they're packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes), it could cause problems for the crew. If someone begins acting out in a way that forces people away from them in this crowded space, some people will push back, others will possibly try to stampede, etc. If someone freaks out enough to need medical care and medical care can't get to them through the press, and they die, it could bring political repercussions back on the exiler. I'm just saying these are plot elements for that story, not reasons the exiler would be considering sending them First Class PanAm instead.


* Far Trader has 65dT of cargo space, that works out to almost 300sqm, right? Maximum occupancy, standing room only, is 6sqft per person (building code). So... *crunches numbers* ...that works out to over 500 capacity. But that assumes no baggage.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh, and do you mind if I steal this as an adventure seed? Given the low populations IMTU, this could easily work. (And, I have several worlds/polities where they would try it.)

 

[McPerth]

This situation is quite similar to the one represented in MT:HG (IIRC, I cannot find my copy right now) when a planet population asks the players to transfer all their population (about 60000 people) to an old inactive volcano crater (now a huge lake) to avoid the worst effects of a heavy elements taint in their planet. Just that in the HT case people is expected to be more colaborative...

 

[CosmicGamer]

Some people might freak out do to claustrophobia, first time flying...

The people who are forcing them into exile are unlikely to care.

This and other comments I made were about issues the transporter has to deal with. Even the transporter may not care about the people but they probably care about the ship and their own safety. If you ignore a freaked out passenger then others will now be more likely to freak and panic can spread. If you ignore someone who gets motion sickness and they puke it can induce incidents with others too. Who has to do the cleanup and repairs? Not the politician giving these folk the boot.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Cosmic, I think you messed up the quotes there. I was quoting Hans. And my response is similar to yours. It's not a consideration for the exiler, perhaps, but might be elements of what really happened within the story he is contemplating.

 

[Lycanorukke]

This situation is quite similar to the one represented in MT:HG (IIRC, I cannot find my copy right now) when a planet population asks the players to transfer all their population (about 60000 people) to an old inactive volcano crater (now a huge lake) to avoid the worst effects of a heavy elements taint in their planet. Just that in the HT case people is expected to be more colaborative...

The side quest "Chariots of the Gods". Mind you, the locals were paying the adventurers about 300 KCreds in gems for the trip and wanted to go there.