Understanding of TLs

[77topaz]

It's said that TLs beyond 15 are "getting to the limit of what the human mind can imagine". But that's a TL 8 human mind. A TL 15 mind might understand exactly what the new developments would be and what the consequences would be, just like a TL 8 mind imagining TL 9. Similarly, a TL 0 mind may not understand exactly what the difference is between TL 7 and TL 8...
Is there some sort of algorithm for calculating how much one TL can "understand" another TL?

 

[robject]

The only algorithm I know is that a TL represents about an order of magnitude more labor savings, or efficiency, or production, or something, than the TL before it. More or less. So a TL7 person can comprehend the magnitude of TL8 technology, if not the exact details, but TL9 technology would be out of scope for most.

So, how about (native TL)-2D+INT as the max tech level that a character can imagine?

But your statement still has some merit. Marc has limited the TL scale to an absolute maximum of 33, after which the Singularity happens to a sophont people, for good or ill. However, a sophont people can plateau at a given TL and essentially be "stuck" there for some length of time -- forever, unless something happens to jostle them out of it.

Anyhow, for humans, it seems that somewhere after TL21, things get bizarre. I don't think there's a plateau, but maybe technology just gets different and, well yes, kind of incomprehensible to most people. But, just because it's incomprehensible doesn't mean it can't be used or can't have a user's manual.

Just some thoughts.

 

[77topaz]

Marc has limited the TL scale to an absolute maximum of 33.

http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Tech_Level_Comparison_Chart states that the ability to create pocket universes (as used by Yaskoydray) only comes at TL 35+.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I don't know. I can imagine quite a bit of ultratechnology. Galaxy spanning hyperdrive. Planet splitting bombs. Instantaneous teleporters. And can think through how some of those could be accomplished. Understanding exactly how something works without being taught might take a bit, but there shouldn't be any reason why a character couldn't be able to be taught - to bring them 'up to speed'. It depends on what they need to understand. I don't need to know how gunpowder works to be able to shoot a gun.

But also:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

 

[Omnivore]

No longer a contributor to this board.

 

[mike wightman]

TLs mark (or should IMNSHO) a paradigm shift in understanding the way the universe works and how to use technology to achieve stuff that was almost unimaginable before.

The human race today has been recognisably human for 120,000 years =/- a few tens of thousands.

We learned that rocks contain metals and how to extract them about 10,000 years ago.

Learning to alloy them required another 4000 years of technological development.

Iron extraction followed about 1500 years later.

Mass production of iron and later steel didn't become possible until the 18/19th centuries - that's a few thousand year gap right there.

Now do these time periods represent TL changes or refinement of metallurgical understanding?

The discovery of electricity is the next big thing and the ability to extract totally unknown metals by electrolysis - now that is a TL shift.

Today we have smart alloys and a detailed knowledge of metal structure thanks to the electron microscope - another TL jump?

Here's an amazing paradigm shift to consider - Maxwell's wave equations.

Maxwell mathematically proved the link between electricity, magnetism and light (Faraday was an almost self taught experimenter and lousy mathematician) - which opened the door to understanding the electromagnetic spectrum. Prior to his wave equation radio was a totally unknown and unknowable phenomena.

Now that is a TL jump, from a totally ignorant starting position to a revelation and new way to look at how the universe works.

As I've said before, I don't think the Traveller TL scale is very good - too much refinement and improvement of technology and very few paradigm shifts.

I would consider something like this as a starting point:

Fusion power TL8

Gravitics TL9

Jump drive TL10

Nuclear damper tech TL11 - manipulation of the strong and weak nuclear forces, this is when bonded superdense armour should become available too, along with much more efficient fusion reactors.

Meson technology TL12

 

[Garyius2003]

TLs are assigned scales used by the Travellers Aid Society as a shorthand entry for the ability of a given world to manufacture devices of a given general level.

If a culture is listed as TL 5 does that mean you should import higher tech level boilers and steam pipe tech? No, but it means you should research further and see if they need it. It does mean a ship crew and travellers have a pretty good idea of what the local tech base, and therefore a majority of tech in use, is like.

The problem is that the TL level is now so universally used as a shorthand in the 3I that we are using it as a social or development scale for predictive developments. I think most of us agree that the small race in the Marches--the darrens or something--reached TL16 before they blew up their own star. Therefore we know what TL16 looks like. Is TL17 going to be the ability to teleport, or to jump ships further than 6 parsecs, or a terrible new weapon, or some ability that isn't even on the horizon yet? We won't know until we, as a culture, see it.

For our next class meeting, please research the differences in technology scales between TL3 and TL6, as assigned by the TAS during the original publication, and as revamped by the Imperial Army General Staff as part of the Grand Directional Conference of 933, and the four letter rating system assigned by the Second Imperium's Naval Administration Service.

 

[Dragoner]

Tech levels should be taken with a grain of salt, in the business world technology, being an important resource, is often called "knowledge capital" or merely innovation. For example, take an IC engine, the first designs started appearing in the late 18th and early 19th century, but the two main basic principles, that of using combustion to drive a piston to do mechanical work, dates to the middle ages with the introduction of firearms, a gun can be loosely described as a "single cycle engine." The second principle, that of the use of a crank, dates to prehistoric times, why did it take so long to put the two together to form a reciprocating engine? That is the question of the ages and the secret to what technology is.

 

[mike wightman]

If I took my modern understanding of chemistry and physics back to the copper age they'd be smelting iron in no time.

Discovery requires a eureka moment when it all fits together or a completely new paradigm jumps out at you.

 

[Dragoner]

The funny thing about iron smelting, is that they knew how to do it earlier than we think, and only became truely du jour once supplies of tin ran low and bronze became more expensive. We still use a lot of low-tech assemblies in complex machines because they are "good enough."

 

[Ackehece]

http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Tech_Level_Comparison_Chart states that the ability to create pocket universes (as used by Yaskoydray) only comes at TL 35+.

Those TLs were added by me to the wiki. I know that they are currently what is "most accepted from the rules" but T5 changes this up a bit.

 

[Carlobrand]

... Marc has limited the TL scale to an absolute maximum of 33, after which the Singularity happens to a sophont people, for good or ill. ...

The singularity, ooooh (shudder)! Technology and/or bioengineering combining to link all human minds into one vast entity, the entire species as one single being, individuals reduced to little more than cells of a communal mind, "processors" and "hard drives" in an organic "computer" of unimaginable scale, the collective intelligence as incomprehensible and as far beyond human grasp as the human mind lies beyond that of an ant, the secrets of the universe grasped and the collective mind probing beyond the universe in an effort to find new mysteries and new challenges worthy of its god-like intelligence.

On the one hand, inspiring. On the other, it kind of feels like extinction.

 

[Ackehece]

The singularity, ooooh (shudder)! Technology and/or bioengineering combining to link all human minds into one vast entity, the entire species as one single being, individuals reduced to little more than cells of a communal mind, "processors" and "hard drives" in an organic "computer" of unimaginable scale, the collective intelligence as incomprehensible and as far beyond human grasp as the human mind lies beyond that of an ant, the secrets of the universe grasped and the collective mind probing beyond the universe in an effort to find new mysteries and new challenges worthy of its god-like intelligence.

On the one hand, inspiring. On the other, it kind of feels like extinction.

I for one would be part of the group who would rather fall back from it or remain at the level below that. Also options when Singularity happens...the toys you get just before singularity sound fun enough

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

The singularity, ooooh (shudder)! Technology and/or bioengineering combining to link all human minds into one vast entity, the entire species as one single being, individuals reduced to little more than cells of a communal mind, "processors" and "hard drives" in an organic "computer" of unimaginable scale, the collective intelligence as incomprehensible and as far beyond human grasp as the human mind lies beyond that of an ant, the secrets of the universe grasped and the collective mind probing beyond the universe in an effort to find new mysteries and new challenges worthy of its god-like intelligence.

That's not precisely what the Singularity is -- or rather, you're being a bit too precise in your description of it.

The Singularity is commonly defined as the hypothetical point at which the advancement of information/technology becomes so rapid that it is impossible to predict the outcome, or even see the process as it's happening. Information-wise, we would pass through an 'event horizon' and shoot straight off into parts unknown. At least that's the idea.

Borg-like hive minds are certainly one of the more typical notions of how it may come about, but it definitely isn't the only possible idea. Actually, the point is that we don't have any concept of what it's really like from our end of the schoolyard. For all we know it may have already happened.

 

[Carlobrand]

I'm aware of that. Originated with Vinge - or at least that's where I first encountered it. One of his books had a variety of people from a variety of times going forward from their own time into a distant future by use of a field that put them in a kind of time-stasis from the perspective of the universe around them. Arrived to find no more people and no clear idea where they went or what had happened.

Mass-mind's one option; Heinlein played with that one briefly once, as did many others. There's also the "bots take over" bit, either aggressive or passive - my high-probability scenario has us just fading into extinction as we wallow in perfect self-indulgent laziness and gradually lose interest in reproducing, leaving our intelligent constructs to inherit the world and continue their evolution without us. Then there's the eternals, where we conquer death and, with no end in sight except by accident, and with endless time and the ability to boost our native faculties by tech and other means, become something pychologically very alien from the humanity we know today. But of course all of that is straight-lining - there could be factors as completely unknown to me as radioactive decay and relativity were to the ancient Greeks that play a dominant role in our future fate.

However, I'm rather fond of the mass-mind one, inasmuch as it preserves at least some aspect of both our continuity and our sense of adventure.

 

[aramis]

Another interpretation of the Singularity is that point where no one from before it is capable of functioning adequately after it.

yet another is that point where everything after is "Sufficiently Advanced Technology" (aka "Magic")... even to the denizens...

Simply put, it's the point where everything changes. And, it appears to me that that's about TL17 in the OTU.

 

[Icosahedron]

Another possibility for the singularity is the point at which technology ceases to have a purpose - if psionics are developed to the point where we no longer need tools of any kind to manipulate the universe around us (or even bodies to manipulate the tools) because we can do it with our minds alone - nano-telekinesis (TK at molecular level). At that points we become gods - being able to create, alter and destroy with our minds alone.

Way above TL17 IMO.

I don’t see a problem with people being able to understand technology right up to TL18, 20 or beyond. After all, us TL7 gamers have no problem comprehending (and role-playing) life at TL15 do we? We can comprehend (and RP) a game with antimatter reactors, matter transport, and even AI.
And there don’t seem to be that many fundamental changes (paradigm shifts) between TL7 and TL15 either - they’re still using recognisable ships, cars, guns, computers, libraries - There’s nothing there that we TL7ers would consider to be 'magic’. The next big shift would be to a technology that we mere gamers couldn’t comprehend or role-play - the social repercussions of matter transport, AI and replicators could start us down that route, but what is the point of a non-RP-able RPG?

I think anything the players can cope with, their characters can cope with too, and if the players can’t cope, it’s no longer a RPG.

 

[DangerousThing]

Another possibility for the singularity is the point at which technology ceases to have a purpose - if psionics are developed to the point where we no longer need tools of any kind to manipulate the universe around us (or even bodies to manipulate the tools) because we can do it with our minds alone - nano-telekinesis (TK at molecular level). At that points we become gods - being able to create, alter and destroy with our minds alone.

I call that QK (quantum-kinesis) but it's *usually* more limited than that. You'd need something more than that to actually mess with the universe at the level you imagine. I created QK in order to explain telekinesis and pyrokinesis and such.

Also I agree with an *old* SF story I read once that said that psionics was a dead end. The human brain has a limited ability to handle energy, while technology can handle a *lot* more. And once we get the technology to do what you're suggesting, we can probably do it better with computers and machines (though both would be *very* different than what we think of as computers and machines)

Way above TL17 IMO.

I don’t see a problem with people being able to understand technology right up to TL18, 20 or beyond. After all, us TL7 gamers have no problem comprehending (and role-playing) life at TL15 do we? We can comprehend (and RP) a game with antimatter reactors, matter transport, and even AI.
And there don’t seem to be that many fundamental changes (paradigm shifts) between TL7 and TL15 either - they’re still using recognisable ships, cars, guns, computers, libraries - There’s nothing there that we TL7ers would consider to be 'magic’. The next big shift would be to a technology that we mere gamers couldn’t comprehend or role-play - the social repercussions of matter transport, AI and replicators could start us down that route, but what is the point of a non-RP-able RPG?

I think anything the players can cope with, their characters can cope with too, and if the players can’t cope, it’s no longer a RPG.

We can cope with these things because this is an RPG and we are creating the higher tech levels specifically so that we can cope with them. Notice that despite all the fancy toys, life is pretty much like it is today.

I don't think that TL 15 is actually understandable by today's people. And I don't think it is *anything* like it is envisioned in Traveller.

One thing I've never liked about Traveller is that other sciences didn't keep up. By TL 15 we should have enough understanding of genetics to keep us alive until we die by accident.

In my campaign, *everybody* lives to about 300 years old (more with anti-aging techniques) with some basic medicine (available here and now) and a bit of common sense. Real aging beyond about 25-35 doesn't occur until 225-250 years old. If you have *really* low technology, then the lifespan is about 2/3 of normal, but most colonies of the Empire are at TL 10 minimum and rapidly get to 14 or 15 (within a few hundred years, because most of the technology needed is open source).

Genetics are improved to the point where companies are selling miniature dinosaurs as pets, though they put dog brains in the 'saurs so they would be more friendly. Triceritops get the brains of a lab; T-Rex gets the brains of a chihuahua.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[madmike]

I call that QK (quantum-kinesis) but it's *usually* more limited than that. You'd need something more than that to actually mess with the universe at the level you imagine. I created QK in order to explain telekinesis and pyrokinesis and such.

Also I agree with an *old* SF story I read once that said that psionics was a dead end. The human brain has a limited ability to handle energy, while technology can handle a *lot* more. And once we get the technology to do what you're suggesting, we can probably do it better with computers and machines (though both would be *very* different than what we think of as computers and machines)

I introduce implants at TL9 and those getting increasingly sophisticated as TL increases. These are purely comms and information. I use the "Vatta's War" style

I don't think that TL 15 is actually understandable by today's people. And I don't think it is *anything* like it is envisioned in Traveller.

One thing I've never liked about Traveller is that other sciences didn't keep up. By TL 15 we should have enough understanding of genetics to keep us alive until we die by accident.

In my campaign, *everybody* lives to about 300 years old (more with anti-aging techniques) with some basic medicine (available here and now) and a bit of common sense. Real aging beyond about 25-35 doesn't occur until 225-250 years old. If you have *really* low technology, then the lifespan is about 2/3 of normal, but most colonies of the Empire are at TL 10 minimum and rapidly get to 14 or 15 (within a few hundred years, because most of the technology needed is open source).

Similar in my campaign. After over 3000 years of technological development, and even forgetting the long night. Humans live to an average of 180 years with little visible aging and a further 50 or so years with visible aging. On lower tech worlds, the average is obviously less, but contact with the Imperium's high tech worlds brings that up with the right treatments.

Anti-aging is about genetics not anagathic drugs. At least in my take on the OTU.

CT was created 35 years ago now and technology both medical and computer have evolved far beyond what Marc would have ever thought. We even have working prototypes of quantum level computers now, but still have not perfected effective fusion reactors and cheap, effective spaceship drives. So tech certainly does not move ahead in a uniform rate.

I had a lively discussion with the players in the group about gauss weapons having or not having recoil. The argument from our resident rules-meister was they they do not. The law of momentum still applies says I.

"Ahh, but do they have a miniature grav generator to offset recoil?", another player replied.

Nope, 'cause even at higher TL, a power cell can only hold so much power and that power is geared to spitting tha slugs out not powering a recoil offset grav generator.

That sorted 'em...

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

"Ahh, but do they have a miniature grav generator to offset recoil?", another player replied.

Nope, 'cause even at higher TL, a power cell can only hold so much power and that power is geared to spitting tha slugs out not powering a recoil offset grav generator.

Also, I'm not really sure what gravity has to do with Newton's Third Law of Motion. But who am I to argue with pretend universe super physics?