• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

CT Only: Traveller Tech Levels

And Grand Census (I only have that copy, not the world builders) breaks down TL by areas such as computers, medicine, etc. As per Kilemall, the UWP is just the generally available stuff. Things will vary depending on where you go.

In MTU I have a world that is TL E or so but has TL-G medical stuff for reasons. On my blog here if curious.
 
And Grand Census (I only have that copy, not the world builders) breaks down TL by areas such as computers, medicine, etc. As per Kilemall, the UWP is just the generally available stuff. Things will vary depending on where you go.

In MTU I have a world that is TL E or so but has TL-G medical stuff for reasons. On my blog here if curious.
This makes much more sense.
 
The requirements for achieving TL8 have yet to be met, and yet we have far surpassed computer and robotics predictions.
I am not sure what metric one uses to measure COMPUTERS since a Model/1 is defined as capable of running the Program for Jump 1 [a metric that we have no actual data on]. The idea that ANY starship computer was buildable pre-electronics [Vacuum Tubes, Electro-mechanical, Babbage Engine] seems like a flaw in the initial TL assumptions from TL 4-7 ... ignoring any "future Tech". Robotics seem less clear from the "ubiquitous commercial artificial people" (ala Star Wars 'Droids'). What we have seems more "hype of coming soon" technology and basic 1960's robotic manufacturing with better CAD/CAM drivers.

Lasers/Plasma are a real improvement that have become commercial reality since 1977 [just not yet handheld weapons].
 
It is also defined as being 1 ton at TL5, but that is in 81 edition.
It would have made a lot more sense for a starship computer to start at TL9

Tech Level9101112131415
Model1234567
Looking back at 77 edition the TL of the ship computer is not listed in LBB:2, and the computer models given in the TL chart in LBB:3 may not actually be starship computers...

So at TL 9 ship computers can be model 1->3 rules as written, at the tonnages given in LBB:2, but a non-starship computer model 1 at TL5 may well not have the stats of a model 1 starship computer.
 
I am not sure what metric one uses to measure COMPUTERS since a Model/1 is defined as capable of running the Program for Jump 1 [a metric that we have no actual data on]. The idea that ANY starship computer was buildable pre-electronics [Vacuum Tubes, Electro-mechanical, Babbage Engine] seems like a flaw in the initial TL assumptions from TL 4-7 ... ignoring any "future Tech". Robotics seem less clear from the "ubiquitous commercial artificial people" (ala Star Wars 'Droids'). What we have seems more "hype of coming soon" technology and basic 1960's robotic manufacturing with better CAD/CAM drivers.

Lasers/Plasma are a real improvement that have become commercial reality since 1977 [just not yet handheld weapons].
I have actually wondered about this and this is my thoughts...

the Model-1 computer may be TL-5, but it is a mature technology at higher tech levels. My thinking is that, in places like the Third Imperium, which wants to promote Trade to flourish, this is a lower tech product used in higher tech ships, which brings much needed Trade between Systems of varying tech levels in the Imperium.

A TL-13 custom built ship would use a TL-13 Model-1 computer instead of a TL-5 Model-1 shipped in from another system. Or a single system not part of a bigger polity would use the model computer at their current TL, maybe at a cost savings due to using local mature technology versus using foreign mature technology shipped in at higher cost, possibly.
 
I am inclined to take the chart of pages 14 and 15 of Book 3 with a grain of salt. It tells me submersibles don't show up until TL6 and vacc suits and autocannon don't show up until TL8. I guess our astronauts today just hold their breath?

An alternate reading is that the devices are available at TL-1 but only to the military/government. That would explain all the TL 6 submarines used in WW2, and the autocannons that are pretty common on military aircraft. (And the GAU-8 on an A-10 is absolutely a classic example of a spinal mount). But while commercial submarines exist, and spacesuits are available on Ebay, but I can't forsee civilian autocannon.
The earliest submersibles showed up at TL 3 or 4 like the Turtle or CSS Hunley. Diving bells exist, a non-moving submersible. Likewise, vacc suits first show up about TL 5. This is a very early pressure suit devised by Wiley Post in 1934:

SI%2098-15012h.jpg


An improved model about a year later by B F Goodrich off Post's design

6698e9c2dcdcc2386504ae0ec7802d48--restraint-wiley.jpg


While these were just for high altitude flight, they are a start and if vacuum conditions were the issue could have been made to work in such a situation.
 
I thought he was suggesting rifling the barrel to improve the accuracy of the "12 gauge slug" (which it would). Rifled slugs in a smoothbore barrel are legit. Technically, micro-groves in a barrel may be "Legal" under US BATF rules (depending on the winds of interpretation) ... but that seems cheating to me and spin generally NERFS shot patterns with small pellets from what I read.
Would 'half-rifled' work? That is, you put rifling in say the first 2 or 3" (5 to 8 cm) of the barrel then leave the rest smoothbore. Impart spin on the round then it travels down a smoothbore the rest of the way in the barrel. The Russians did this with their 76.2mm artillery pieces in the 1930's and 40's for example.
 
The earliest submersibles showed up at TL 3 or 4 like the Turtle or CSS Hunley. Diving bells exist, a non-moving submersible. Likewise, vacc suits first show up about TL 5. This is a very early pressure suit devised by Wiley Post in 1934:
Yes, that was my point: things showed up earlier in RL than the rules state is possible, and not just as one-off prototypes.
An improved model about a year later by B F Goodrich off Post's design



While these were just for high altitude flight, they are a start and if vacuum conditions were the issue could have been made to work in such a situation.
Yes, but actual space suits were used in RL on the many space missions prior to TL8 is my point.
 
Yes, that was my point: things showed up earlier in RL than the rules state is possible, and not just as one-off prototypes.

Yes, but actual space suits were used in RL on the many space missions prior to TL8 is my point.
Yes, "real" space suits show up much earlier, again about TL 5.

147674-70cd3889410c4ddf57c0b24dac6abd45.jpg


147671-e4c7f648e0c7e7ad5668df72f3f12d58.jpg

German pressure suits late WW 2. These were intended to operate in a near vacuum say at 50,000 to 75,000 feet so they'd work in space theoretically.

pxw5hvsjvoz61.jpg


USAAF XH-3 vacuum suit developed by B F Goodrich (called the "Tomato worm" suit) 1943
 
It's kind of amazing to live in an age witnessing the genesis, growing, maturing, and replacing of technology in a single lifetime.

How hard must it be to imagine the same in a game covering a few thousand years of potential future possibilities, especially when some of the imagining remains in the realm of imagination.
 
Which technologies have been replaced by brand new technologies? By which I mean nased on new physics rather than a new application of what we already know.
The shift from analogue to digital recording, the different mediums used to make those recordings are still based on the physics discovered at the turn of last century.
Similarly the shift from mechanical to electronic to transistor to microchip is based on hundred year old physics.

Where are the modern technologies based on a new physics theory?

We have got better at engineering, improved material science, but all underpinned by classical physics dating back to newton if not earlier to which we added quantum et al.

What are the real breakthroughs that revolutionise society - those are TL boundaries in my mind.

Humanity began is technological journey thinking it was magic, learn by doing, with no understanding of what was actually happening.

We cooked food, we then learned to use heat to decompose rocks, to make lime and metals (well the unrective ones).
As our furnaces improved more metals were discovered and glass making and high grade ceramics became doable.

All with no understanding of the physics and chemistry underpinning them - it was all learn by doing and repetition of what worked, with slowly discovered improvements to the processes.

We learned to selectively cultivate plants, animal husbandry and selective breeding - no genetic knowledge required.

We learned that rubbing materials would generate static, we discovered some rocks to be magnetic (but it would take thousands of years to understand them and link them and discover the electromagnetic spectrum).

Last night I had a thought. Extend the UWP. Starport - size, atmosphere, water - population , government, law lecel - TL, BT, EM, GT

TL - mechanics and material science TL
BT - biotech TL
EM - energy, electronic and ems TL
GT - gravitics TL

I know this needs work, it was just a thought before going to sleep.
 
Which technologies have been replaced by brand new technologies? By which I mean nased on new physics rather than a new application of what we already know.
The shift from analogue to digital recording, the different mediums used to make those recordings are still based on the physics discovered at the turn of last century.
Similarly the shift from mechanical to electronic to transistor to microchip is based on hundred year old physics.

Where are the modern technologies based on a new physics theory?

We have got better at engineering, improved material science, but all underpinned by classical physics dating back to newton if not earlier to which we added quantum et al.

What are the real breakthroughs that revolutionise society - those are TL boundaries in my mind.

Humanity began is technological journey thinking it was magic, learn by doing, with no understanding of what was actually happening.

We cooked food, we then learned to use heat to decompose rocks, to make lime and metals (well the unrective ones).
As our furnaces improved more metals were discovered and glass making and high grade ceramics became doable.

All with no understanding of the physics and chemistry underpinning them - it was all learn by doing and repetition of what worked, with slowly discovered improvements to the processes.

We learned to selectively cultivate plants, animal husbandry and selective breeding - no genetic knowledge required.

We learned that rubbing materials would generate static, we discovered some rocks to be magnetic (but it would take thousands of years to understand them and link them and discover the electromagnetic spectrum).

Last night I had a thought. Extend the UWP. Starport - size, atmosphere, water - population , government, law lecel - TL, BT, EM, GT

TL - mechanics and material science TL
BT - biotech TL
EM - energy, electronic and ems TL
GT - gravitics TL

I know this needs work, it was just a thought before going to sleep.
If you think about this, there are just 4 periods in human history where technological development really had a massive change on things. Those are:

The Ancient Age. Most basic machines, to even include analog computers like the Antikythera Device, were invented. Inventions were often lost, reinvented, or invented in parallel in different societies. Knowledge was accumulated slowly, erratically, and often lost and rediscovered. 90% of the world's population farms with about 9% of the remainer doing somewhat more technical jobs like skilled trades and such. The nation-state in its basic form arises and empires on a regional level begin to exist. Warfare is either between a small handful of professionals like knights or scratch conscript armies lead by the handful of professionals. Fighting is mostly, but not entirely, similar to a rugby scrum with deadly consequences.

The Rennaissance or Age of Science. This period covers the invention of basic means to standardize, record, widely--at least fairly widely--disseminate knowledge and information. The printing press, scientific method, and early mass production of books and literature occur. The percentage of people needed to farm starts to drop and more persons start doing skilled labor. Political organization consolidates power and nation-states, and regional empires become longer lasting and more stable. In warfare professional armies supported by skilled, technical manpower, like artillerymen and arquebusers, appear for the first time. Firearms using chemical processes appear.

The Industrial Age. Ancient knowledge coupled with now available and standardized scientific knowledge leads to harnessing early man powered machines to new energy sources like coal, oil, or water. The water wheel, windmills, and steam are typical examples. These create the ability to mass produce goods and farm on a scale previously unimaginable. As this age progresses, farmers drop from 90% of the workforce to about 10 or less percent and semi-skilled and skilled labor become close to 70% with another 10% or so being full-time inventors, academics, etc. Global empires, colonization of distant regions, become possible. Warfare is industrialized and mass armies appear for the first time.

The Electronics Age. Science reaches a point where electromagnetism can be harnessed. For the first time in history, night is no longer a barrier to doing almost anything. Factories can work around the clock. Machinery is now able to do more and be more compact. With electronics, be it vacuum tubes or solid state, computing power begins to replace manpower and machines slowly become intelligent.
This is not the "Information Age" as many claim as the information was always there to begin with. The difference is electronics make it possible to store, parse, and share that information on a worldwide scale virtually instantaneously.
Farming continues to fall as an occupation as it becomes automated. Unskilled and semi-skilled work, likewise, becomes automated. Skilled workers, and those in intellectual pursuits add automation and information retrieval to complement their work process making them far more productive. A growing portion of the population become surplus, and humanity starts to see a decline in birth rates where the population begins to shrink.
The nation-state becomes a fixed thing based on previously defined borders. Colonized holdings free themselves of their masters and become self-sustaining nation-states on their own. Internationalism and Globalism appear. In warfare, intelligent weapons (think guided and precision) and remote-control warfare using electronic sensors, control systems, and weapons appear. The previous industrial age mass army becomes obsolete.

I think the next age will be that of Artificial Intelligence. Machines, computers, and data storage reach a point where they are self-sustaining and can replicate themselves. Humanity makes great pets. No longer confined by gravity, need for a very specific set of conditions for life, AI starts looking to find other AI in the universe.

I suppose you could add a pre-Ancient period to this, call it the Stone Age. Sentient, tool making, species harnesses energy (fire) and begins making tools. Intellectual advancement is slow, sporadic, and only organized on a local level.

There is, of course, some overlap between these periods, so when one ends, and one begins isn't easy to define.

Well, at least that's how I see it.
 
I am happy with those although I too would add the neolithic age as you suggest where fire, basic animal husbandry, basic crop planting, and man made shelters were possible.
Stone tools, glue, leather, basically everything pre-metal.

Looking at the science behind it

chemistry/material science - we wouldn't know what was going on until the early twentieth century when physical chemistry could finally explain why chemical reactions take place and the whole chemical industry opened up, everything prior to atomic theory (which wasn't widely accepted until after Einstein's miracle year) was based on trail and error and incantation rather than understanding.

physics - mathematical descriptions of ballistics were possible thousands of years ago, along with star movement tracking "machines", but it wouldn't be until around the time of Newton (he gets a lot of credit but there are others equally deserving) that reason and the scientific method would open up the universe for us, and even then it would take several centuries to discover the atomic/quantum nature of reality and to be able to partially explain what gravity is (if only Newton had gone back to his rainbow and conducted the experiment he planned but never did - look at each colour carefully with a magnifying glass, he would have discovered spectral lines over a century early)

biology - oh dear, is counting legs and drawing plants really a science :) Germ theory, genetics, biochemistry and now quantum biology...

how do we codify science through the ages? What are the truly paradigm shaking discoveries?
 
how do we codify science through the ages? What are the truly paradigm shaking discoveries?
Anatomy (dissection) ... led to surgery.
Germ Theory ... led to antibiotics.
Non-invasive imaging (x-ray, ultrasound, magnetic) ... led to diagnostics without exploratory surgery.

[The problem is none really require a specific TL and the Bronze Age had most of it but it was lost, replaced with worse models and then rediscovered for reasons having more to do with philosophy than technology.]
 
Surgery has been practiced for millennia - the patient surviving came much later (basic hygiene->antiseptics and antiseptic conditions->antibiotics)
Germ theory wasn't discovered until the microscope showed the microscopic world (stick two leeches under your tongue, I'll bleed you more in a fortnight)
 
Surgery has been practiced for millennia - the patient surviving came much later (basic hygiene->antiseptics and antiseptic conditions->antibiotics)
Germ theory wasn't discovered until the microscope showed the microscopic world (stick two leeches under your tongue, I'll bleed you more in a fortnight)
... However, "two leeches under the tongue" was NEVER part of ANCIENT GREEK [TL 1] medicine, so they arrived at the equivalent of "hygene" and "germ theory" by observational analysis.

... surgery is also tricky. GREEKS removing an infected organ (based on knowledge gained from autopsies) is different from a Myan drilling a cranial hole to allow the evil spirit to escape (even if both patients later die from secondary infections). They are different PARADIGMS of medicine (which is what you sought to identify).
 
The two leeches is from Blackadder, or rather a paraphrase of it since I can't be bothered to find the exact quote).

The Greeks did not have sterile conditions, clean yes, or any understanding of germ theory, they believed in humors. To say that their trial and error produced similar results - ie dead patients is a fair point though.

 
Last edited:
Something I forgot to mention about shotguns, since I hadn't thought about it for years, I think, are barrel adapters.

You slip those in for smaller calibre bullets, if only for single use.
 
Back
Top