Unit sizes and org of Imperial Fleet and Squ units.

[CliffBates]

I was very very much into High Guard/TCS in the mid-80s, only to get so caught up in Grad school in 91/92 period and due to the lack of a community of people in my peer group in Grad School interested in RPGs or Traveller lost interest. I might have for a period of weeks in the late 90s very briefly returned to HighGuard/TCS things once or twice but again others things and job concerns pushed playing aside. But I caught the bug again, especially after the release of T5 and digital access I caught up with things over the past few months. And again I am returning to my interesting in TCS ops.

This personal point is an intro to the discussion of Naval ops. I have seen lots of discussion about unit sizes and when I look at the key official materials such as Rebellion Sourcebook, Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium and the Mongoose Sector Fleet (as its currently called vs its earlier published version). And I must admit the MegaTraveller items often leave me more confused with the unit sizes simply making no sense what so ever. And there is real contradictions between the info in the Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium and the descriptions of the unit activity and sizes of forces implied in the Rebellion Sourcebook and TNS newsflashes dealing with things.

The Squadron sizes presented in the Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium simply under rate the need of the escort force in such sized units even if they operate within a larger fleet. Given the reality of J-space coordinating that all squ units hit the target at the same moments suggest having separate EscortRons for a Fleet engagement is rather risky that your battle units enter in but w/o escorts. And the escort numbers in the charts of the different Squadrons in Fighting Ship of the Shattered Imperium just made no sense at all (esp the size and number of Auxiliaries as well).

In a unit size discussion that I saw in another CoI posting is the trigger of these comments. There the discussion suggested a view that the norm being an 8 [-10] ship squadrons. Again I think people get this number because of inconsistancies in the MegaTraveller mentioned above. I hold that this number [of 8-10] points to the main type of ship that organizes the Squadron and is not counting the Fleet Escort (Destroyers, Frigates), Scouts and Auxiliaries necessary for the effective screening of a unit.

But I would suggest that full force (pre-Rebellion) Active/NonReserve Imperial Fleet squadron battle orders would, in my opinion look somewhat like this:

Yes BatRon composed of the Battle Rider form will have 8 battle riders and the tender/tenders (2-3 depending on size of tenders being used) necessary to transport (Rider units have their Aux units as non-Jump support ships that are). Also BattleRider units will have J-capable escorts with them often for the role of protecting the tenders rather than the Monitors/Riders... who often fight without Escorts supporting them.

Whereas the J-capable Battleship BatRon will most likely have 2 Heavy Dreadnoughts and 2-4 Battleships, with the appropriate number of Fleet

Escorts (2-3 per Battleship/Dreadnought and 4 to escort/protect the Auxiliaries), 2-3 Scouts and the Auxiliaries (apox 3 tankers and 4 support
ships). So at the low end a BatRon would run between 25 ships to 38 ships max.

The CruRon should typically have 8 Cruisers in it (2 Heavy, 2 BattleCru, 4 LtCru) and Escort (Destroyers, Frigates, etc typically 20-16 to support the Cruisers and 4 to support the Auxiliaries), 2-3 Scouts and Auxiliaries (aprox 4 tankers and 3 support ships).

But Strike/Raider CruRons, typically with J-5 or higher unit ranges, will be much smaller units often not having any Auxiliaries operating with them (rather they will go meet up with TankRons that might be position in certain locations to support a mission). Such units will often have 4

-6 Cruisers (often 1-2 strike/frontier Cruisers and 3-4 Lt Cruisers). Their escort force will be much smaller than normal CruRons in that they would have to have the same Jump distance the Cruisers have and the same is true with the Scouts but such units because of some of their missions are advance recon into the enemy rear they will often have much more scouts units attached to them than the typical CruRon. So here there would be typically 4-5 Escorts and 4-6 Scouts--so the overall totals would be 12 ships to 17 ships.

AssultRons are another kettle of fish. Although they will typically consist of 1-2 Heavy Carriers and 2 Lt Carriers along with 4 Lt Cruisers and 20 Escorts, with 3-4 Scouts. They will also have the invasion force and the necessary units (troop transports, assault ships, orbital bombardment ships, tankers and Ordnance and Support Ships) to support such a task. So these units will be rather large between 45+/- to 100+ ships.

CarrierRon [often supporting a BattleFleet of 2 BatRon, 2 CruRons and 1 TankRon] should consist of consist of 1-2 Heavy Carriers and 2 Lt Carriers along with 4 Lt Cruisers and 16 Escorts, and 4-5 Auxiliaries and Tankers, along with about 2-3 Scouts. So this unit will range from 29-32 ships.

As for EscortRon or PatrolRon units... these ought to be at the low end from 18-30 units. The EscortRon will be attached to AssultFleets or added on to a BattleFleet as Escort Reserve and will guard the rear of the battle formation and the support units. PatrolRon units more typically assigned to Sub-Sector commander theater of operations and often rarely operate as a unified units. Often they are assigned to a flotilla (6-8 ships) assigned to either a single world or patrol together a defined high traffic route. Such Patrol Flotillas often provide picket/sentry duty functions for a Fleet op but not directly under the command of the fleet commander.

I would like to hear back from people and there thoughts on this. I also have expand this musing on ranks of unit commanders--as again Sector Fleet suggestions are not as good as they seem. And the official Rank structure of the Imperial Navy jumps from a Commodore (who is never higher than a Flotilla commander or Squ Cdr of smaller sized combat units and Aux and Tankers units) and Fleet Admirals. In the TAS news accounts during the 5thFW spoke of RearAdms and ViceAdms which the official High Guard does not use. But that discussion for another posting.

 

[Matt123]

The 8 ships per squadron originates from CT canon.

Personally my views tend towards the approach you are taking, strongly influenced by Grand Fleet (now Mongoose something). I rationalise the two by considering the squadron as described in CT as an administrative unit that organises crew rotations, specialist training and maintenance. This administrative unit is assigned to Sector fleets, but not typically expected to engage in combat as an isolated or even intact unit. Instead administrative units detach craft to task forces. Task Forces being as you describe them, a variety of craft intended to work together in order to achieve a combat or peacetime mission.

In CT, Fighting Ships describes a BatRon of eight Tigress Dreadnoughts (p.38) that are "ideally" deployed together in war. Of course ideally your opponent will also wait, allow the Batron to gather and then commit to a single great battle that they are unlikely to win.

The only BatRon of Tigresses in the Marches is described as spread across the Marches on peacetime missions. Fighting Ships also describes a class of Destroyer in squadrons up to twenty strong (p.16), I would expect these to also be split to suit local needs.

Welcome back to HG/TCS

 

[Condottiere]

The classic eight ship squadron is based on how fleets organized their battle line during the Great War.

 

[The Oz]

Historically, squadrons evolved as a way to get ships into battle with some degree of control and coordination. Ships tended to be grouped into squadrons based on their homeports. As navies got used to this idea, any group of ships assigned together for a particular mission became a "squadron", the classic example of this is Nelson's force assigned to the Mediterranean for the Nile campaign. Everyone thinks of the battleships Nelson had, but he was also assigned several "escorts," the frigates, sloops, and brigs that were to be his scouts and couriers. Even though Nelson never saw most of the "escorts" assigned to his squadron for one reason or another, they were part of his force and either took his orders or wandered around the Mediterranean doing what they thought Nelson would want them to do while they tried to find him for orders.
During the long peace of the Victorian era, ships were grouped into squadrons by type and by where the ships were based. So battleships in one port would be one squadron, while the cruisers (and later the destroyers) would be grouped into two or more squadron, depending on how many there were. These were administrative groupings, so that similar ships with similar needs could be kept together and get similar help.
Yet at the same time this is when our idea of the squadron of similar ships acting as a tactical grouping took hold. The Victorian navies had too many ships for the admiral to give orders to every one of them, and our modern idea of grouping ships by their tactical function (battle line, screening line, scouting line) had not yet come about. The only grouping that existed was the squadron, so admirals gave tactical orders to squadrons.
As the size of navies has declined in recent years, ships have remained grouped by squadrons for administrative purposes but tactical groupings have been by function; a modern task group might be organized into....

• the carrier and a single close escort/plane guard
• the anti-air warfare screen
• the anti-submarine screen
• the anti-submarine picket
• the submarine escort

In TRAVELLER we seem to have a blend of the Victorian method and the modern approach. We group ships by type (battleship, cruiser, destroyer, escort) into squadrons (or flotillas) but we also assign small boys (escorts) to work with battleships and cruisers as tactical units, with the big boys fighting the other big boys while the small boys 'protect' the big boys.

 

[Condottiere]

In the Great patriotic War, you see more flexibility again, as the navies had been limited in the number and type of warships they were allowed to maintain, so would be unlikely to recreate the battle lines of Jutland, besides the introduction of the atomic bomb, the plane and the aircraft carrier, which substantially changed tactically the dynamics of concentrating your forces, plus improved communications which allowed admirals to command at greater distances.

 

[The Oz]

I think you're right that organization is a matter of numbers, basing, and communications, so let's look at that from a TRAVELLER point of view.

First off, TRAVELLER navies are huge, with hundreds of capital ships and thousands of escorts. Even in just one sector, the big navies (Imperial, Zhodani, Solomani, for example) will have dozens of big ships and hundreds of little ones. These almost have to organized into squadrons of the same type (battleship, cruiser, escort) just to keep things straight administratively.

When it comes to basing (grouping ships by where they are homeported) what I think would matter are the relative value of the planets in an area (subsector), the astrography of the local stars (how dispersed, availability of fuel, etc), and the speed of interstellar communications. Fleets need to be based in systems that can support them with fuel, repairs, shore leave, etc. Luckily those kind of worlds (Industrial, Rich) also tend to be the ones you want to defend. Such a grouping (a 'numbered' fleet) might be responsible for operations within one jump of its home port, and might keep scouting forces one jump further out (any more and communications lag might eat your lunch). These fleets would be composed of a few capital ship squadrons and many escort squadrons, plus specialists (carriers, assault ships, tankers, repair ships, etc).

When operating tactically (within a single system) a force of ships would be organized functionally. A force looking for battle might be organized as follows:

• Battle Line-the big boys, kept together to concentrate firepower
• Screening Line-a few cruisers and many escorts, whose job is to deny the enemy information about your battle line
• Scouting Line-a widespread force of escorts looking for the enemy battle line
• Fleet Train-tankers, assault ships, and the other ships that can't fight but you can't fight without them

If a fleet is looking for a fight the Battle Line might have five squadrons of battleships, all in tight formation, with a couple squadrons of cruisers along to help. The Screening Line might have one squadron of cruisers, but they might be split up to bring a little heavy firepower to bear where needed. The majority of the Screening Line would be squadrons of escorts, kept together to maximize firepower against other escorts. The Scouting Line is where I'd put individual or pairs of escorts and squadrons of fighters, each little element widely scattered so there's a good chance one element can leak through and find the enemy Battle Line.

If a pair of cruisers is trying a quick raid on an enemy system, the Scouting Line might be just a couple of escorts, while the rest of the single squadron of escorts makes up the Screening Line, and the Battle Line consists of the two cruisers.

The point here is that the ships are grouped by, and commanded by, their function, not their squadron. Tactical communications allow the Admiral to order, "Battle Line to course 215 mark -45" or "Scouting Line close to sensor range of the mainworld", he doesn't have to give individual orders to every squadron or ship in that tactical grouping.

 

[aramis]

The classic eight ship squadron is based on how fleets organized their battle line during the Great War.

8-12 is common even now - with 16 on the outside edge...

Why?
Two tier "band of the hand"...
Any of 2x4, 3x3, 2x5, 3x4, 3x5 or 4x4.

Command/control is easiest when you have 3-5 subunits. The Squadron commander maneuvers 2-4 lines, each line commander 3-5 ships.
8 is about as big as a single commander can reliably control - and that's usually by maneuver in pairs.

 

[Condottiere]

Span of control depends depends on a number of factors, including the commander, his staff, his subcommanders, communications, weapon systems and doctrine.

Since Traveller hasn't allowed the development of a weapon system that a smaller ship like a fighter could take out a battleship, it simplifies control.

If we use Jutland as the template, both sides had enough battleships that they could have administrative and field formations of two divisions of four ships each. Cruisers were divided into squadrons of fourish.

Battlecruisers, not being that many and supposedly not really meant for the battle line, seemed to be divided into groups of two and three. The Germans seemed to have massed theirs, but that may be due to more their tendency to use them as a raiding force and to locate and lure elements of the Grand Fleet into an ambush.

 

[flykiller]

would like to hear back from people and there thoughts on this.

(I presume this includes non-canon ....)

imtu, a division is commanded by a commodore and includes an allosaurus-class (meson), a kurashk-class (paws), and a pair of cherry-class destroyers. all are riders and the division includes the transports. three divisions and a command ship are a battle group. three battle groups and command ship are a line fleet (support ships are organized at this level), three line fleets and a command ship are a sector fleet (tied to a specific strategic area) or a grand fleet (goes where needed).

 

[CliffBates]

To Matt,

The problem with the Cannon is it is full of contradictions. And as the game evolved the contradictions grew more in number. This is evident in the Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium (FSSI) as I really wished they did not include those charts and only gave general guidelines.

I was very much disappointed by what I found in FSSI. Not only in operational structure, but the ships it presented. The problem with the org outline in FSSI was there was not enough attention paid to earlier ship designed used in CT (as well as the stuff published in High Passage and The Traveller Digest which became included into Cannon at the start of MegaTraveller) and to be honest most of the ships presented in FSSI was simply sloppy in design and in function. The book was very bad at the level of Escorts and support ships. The tankers where really really upsetting. There were no way near enough tankers that could keep up with a J-4 unit and remember the Imperial Navy standard at TL 15 is J-4 for active fleet units.

My wife wants me to stop typing as its after midnight, so I will stop this here.

 

[CliffBates]

To Aramis,

Regarding unit sizes in your reply to Condottiere. I agree with your assessments of sizes.. but those numbers arn't about squadron (ship not small craft--the rule of 10 small craft of squadrons makes sense but small craft org is vastly different from ships).

I think the structure ought to be:
Imperial Flag,
Domain
Sector
Fleet
Squadron

Now for below Squadron there are:
Task Forces and Flotillas, where Task Forces often being composed of several Flotillas.

So a CruRon that I mentioned in my initial post here, where I wrote this about CruRon: "The CruRon should typically have 8 Cruisers in it (2 Heavy, 2 BattleCru, 4 LtCru) and Escort (Destroyers, Frigates, etc typically 20-16 to support the Cruisers and 4 to support the Auxiliaries), 2-3 Scouts and Auxiliaries (aprox 4 tankers and 3 support ships)."

What would be the standard break down with the CruRon would be it would have at least 2-3 TaskForces.

2 TaskForces will be combat and 1 will be support (unless you opt to include support units in the combat task force as some ops might require).

So in my inital combat TaskForce would look like this:
2 CurFlotillas with either 2 BC+2LtC and 2HC+2LCr or 1HC+1BC+2LtC
4 EscFlotillas with 4/5 Escorts in each.

Now my wife is really angry and I need to go to bed as well.

 

[salochin999]

I would suggest following the advice that bits of canon might refer to a mixture of contexts, for example

1) administrative units
2) tactical units

so a fleet based at a particular base might be assigned
4 squadrons of x
10 squadrons of y
6 squadrons of z

(where squadrons are admin units)

but tactically that same fleet might be organised
task force A (containing 8x, 32y and 16z)
task force B (containing 2x, 4y, 2z)
task force C (containing 8y)
task force D (containing 4y and 8z)
etc

and then hand wave that the word "squadron" is often used as a synonym for "task force" in the canon.

Mentally dividing canon into admin and tactical contexts might solve most of the problem.

.

The example that comes to mind is the mediaevel term "Spear" applied to knights.

An average "spear" might be a knight, mounted sergeant, and four spearmen or archers plus various servants.

So in one context "100 spears" might refer specifically to 100 knights and in another context it might apply to the whole group.

A Traveller equivalent could be treating a canon reference to "100 ships" as meaning only the 100 capital ships and not the other 500 escorts and support ships.

 

[Condottiere]

Doctrine plays a big part.

My take on the Solomani has them going around in pairs when possible, meaning that a task group would have a pair of similarly performing ships as a core, with supporting vessels and escorts.

 

[aramis]

The fighter Wing is itself a subunit of the carrier; Tactically, it's a toss up whether the ship-squadron boss commands the fighters, the line commander commands the fighters, or the ship's commander commands the fighters (in which case, it's probably through the CFW/CFG.

The thing is, ships are, organizationally, different from fighters.

Also, admin attachment tends to be every other or every third level, not every tactical command level.

IMOTU, it tends to go
Domain (because canonically, there is no higher level of the IN that does anything but standard setting)
Sector (HQ only most of the time)
Subsector (HQ and numbered fleet)
System (Task Force, imperialized local fleet)
Naval Group - 2-3 squadrons
Naval Squadron (one type predominates)
Naval Line or Fighter Wing
Naval ship or Fighter Group
Fighter Squadron.

The group is usually 2-3 lines of primary heavy, 3 lines of escorts, 1-3 lines of auxiliaries
A BatRon is usually 2 lines of 4, in elements of 2+joint fighter group.
A CarRon is 2 lines of 4, in elements of 2 carriers and 2 fighter wings
A CruRon is 3 lines of 4, in elements of 3 cruisers and a combined fighter group.
A DesRon is 4 lines of 4, in elements of 2 destroyers, and each element attaches (normally ) to a Battleship, Cruiser, or Carrier element.
An EsRom is 4 lines of 4, again, elements of 2, and attached normally to a CruEl, CarEl, or BatEl.

A RidRon is 1 element of 1-2 tenders, and 2 elements of 3-5 riders.

 

[Condottiere]

It also depends if you mass your ships into a permanent battle fleet, which is where administrative and field units tend to be the same.

 

[CliffBates]

correction to my reply to Aramis

I need to correct my self because I made a mistake last night here in this reply and it bothered me before going to sleep but didn't want to annoy the wife any further.

When I wrote TaskForce below I really meant to say Division. A Naval Division (in contrast to a Ship Division) is usually how Naval Squadrons are divided and A Naval Division will be composed of a few Flotillas.

A Task Force is something larger than a Squ but smaller than a Fleet. They tend to be either specially created Ad hoc units to do a defined task in a Fleet Operation or a specially created independent unit assigned to a specific task, function, or operation. Thus the make up the TaskForce is very very flexible--so they can be several unattached Squadrons (no more than 2 in Large Task Force), Divisions, Flotillas.

To Aramis,

Regarding unit sizes in your reply to Condottiere. I agree with your assessments of sizes.. but those numbers arn't about squadron (ship not small craft--the rule of 10 small craft of squadrons makes sense but small craft org is vastly different from ships).

I think the structure ought to be:
Imperial Flag,
Domain
Sector
Fleet
Squadron

Now for below Squadron there are:
Task Forces and Flotillas, where Task Forces often being composed of several Flotillas.

So a CruRon that I mentioned in my initial post here, where I wrote this about CruRon: "The CruRon should typically have 8 Cruisers in it (2 Heavy, 2 BattleCru, 4 LtCru) and Escort (Destroyers, Frigates, etc typically 20-16 to support the Cruisers and 4 to support the Auxiliaries), 2-3 Scouts and Auxiliaries (aprox 4 tankers and 3 support ships)."

What would be the standard break down with the CruRon would be it would have at least 2-3 TaskForces.

2 TaskForces will be combat and 1 will be support (unless you opt to include support units in the combat task force as some ops might require).

So in my inital combat TaskForce would look like this:
2 CurFlotillas with either 2 BC+2LtC and 2HC+2LCr or 1HC+1BC+2LtC
4 EscFlotillas with 4/5 Escorts in each.

Now my wife is really angry and I need to go to bed as well.

 

[CliffBates]

To Aramis, in response to his 2nd posting above.

I mostly agree with your line of reasoning here. But this is something I was very interested in back in the 80s when I was very very much into Highguard/TCS and even though I might have stopped following traveller always followed sci-fi discussion and games about naval/space ops. Also
given my training as scholar in the classics, I was trained to pay attention to very small details and try to make sure they make sense or work.

So please forgive me, if I am being pedantic. And from the active RPG gaming aspect such issues as these are only at best background [this is to
say such large fleet ops is the Macro level of the Traveller RPG, but most players and refs operate at the Micro level and smaller unit sizes
are the norm]. But let me flush this out a bit.

Aramis wrote:
"MOTU, it tends to go
Domain (because canonically, there is no higher level of the IN that does anything but standard setting)
Sector (HQ only most of the time)
Subsector (HQ and numbered fleet)
System (Task Force, imperialized local fleet)
Naval Group - 2-3 squadrons
Naval Squadron (one type predominates)
Naval Line or Fighter Wing
Naval ship or Fighter Group
Fighter Squadron."

I generally agree with you but I would suggest the following modifications (taken from TNS notes both from the CT period and MT period including
material published in TNE-Survival Margin, Rebellion Sourcebook--as well as Sector Fleet from Mongoose):

1: The Emperor [his own naval Huscarles--or his Grand Fleet--station at the Depot at Core with the Core Sector's Fleet.]

2: The Admiralty or the Naval Office of the Ministry of Defense [taken from Loren Wiseman's piece on the Imperial Nobility]--Administrative so it runs no operational units directly but operates via the Domain/Sector/SubSector Commanders.

3: Domain has both an HQ and a separate and not numbered but Named active Fleet and a Reserve Fleet and Mothballed Fleet at the Sector Depot [which is usually the one closest to the seat of the domain] that are separate from the Sector Fleet and its Reserve Fleet and Mothballed fleet.

4: Sector has both an HQ and a separate and not numbered but Named active Fleet and a Reserve Fleet and Mothballed Fleet at the Sector Depot.

Also Sector Admirals command all the numbered fleets assigned throughout their sectors.

5: Numbered Fleet. commanded by the Fleet Commander reporting to the Sector Fleet Commander above him.

6: SubSector although has no direct command over the numbered fleet(s) that may be assigned in their subsector it does actively acts to support its/their operation. The SubSector is mostly the administrative organizational unit that overseas all Imperial naval bases throughout the given subsector. Yet the SubSector Adm will have operational control of several unattached to a given numbered fleet active duty units (i.e.,Task Force, Squadrons, Division, Flotilla) and the Space forces of the various Planetary members within the subsector. Also subsector commanders will oversea Imperial Reserve Units that are stationed though out their Subsector until those units are activated and then they often go to their assigned units in the Sector and/or Doman Fleet.

7: Task Force: A Task Force is something larger than a Squ but smaller than a Fleet. They tend to be either specially created Ad hoc units to do a defined task in a Fleet Operation or a specially created independent unit assigned to a specific task, function, or operation. Thus the make up the TaskForce is very very flexible--so they can be several unattached Squadrons (no more than 2 in Large Task Force), Divisions, Flotillas. They may be organized unit under a given Fleet and thus under the command of that Fleet commander, or they may be an Independent unit under the Command of the Domain, Sector or SubSector Admiral/Commander. [At the Subsector level there is no more than 1 TaskForce and so the SubSector Admiral acts as its Flag commander.]

8: Squadrons. These are the large sized operation units that specializes on the type of ship that predominated or the type of Mission. BatRons are of two types Dreadnought/Battleships units and Tender/Battlerider units. CarrierRon. CruRon. StrikeRon, AssultRon are the heavy combat Squadrons. [For details on Squadron make up please go check the original post I started this thread with.] Then their smaller combat squadrons such as DestroyerRon [sizes 7-1kton], EscortRon [2kt-400ton], PatrolRon [400-100ton], ReconRon [2kt-100kt these are composed of fast and long J ranged ships escorts, scout and courier sized ships], and then ScoutRons, which are IISS ships that during war or emergency are mobilized into larger operational units and assigned to Fleets and Task Forces. Then there are the Auxiliaries: AuxRon, TankRon (tanker), TenderRon [independent and mobile fleet tenders often very large and with escort units to protect/defend], and TransportRon, which are made up of Imperial Navy cargo and personnel transport vessels in peace but in War or times of Emergency will be augmented with Imperial Merchant Marine and other units drafted, hired, or voluntarily assigned to such tasked.

 

[CliffBates]

continued from the earlier post

9: Naval Divisions which smaller sub-squadron sized units. Typed on the kind of unit/ship type that it is mostly composed of. They are divided into Combat Division and Support Division. Typically a Naval Division are formed within the structure of a given Squadron (Typically an active squadron will divide up into operational division, but they also may be formed outside them and are thus independent or stand alone units. These independent/stand alone units are under the command of either Sector and the SubSector Commanders (more usually the latter than the former, although the former can assert operational control or reassign such units) and are all generally divided into Patrol Divisions or Escort or Destroyer Divisions, and Imperial Reserve units (which are formed and operational in peacetime under SubSector command).

a: i Combat Division are formed on a 3-2 pair of the largest size/type combat ship with escorts of equal or slightly larger number), so If Dreadnaught/Battleship then BattleDiv, if composed of Battleriders/Monitors then Rider/MonitorDiv, if Cruiser [no distinction between battle, heavy, strike, assault, light, etc (save Frontier Cruiser which arn't truly cruiser although they are called them and normally arn't in the Active IN's operational line)] CruDiv, or CarrierDiv or if no larger ship in the Squadron then the largest sized combat ship type, so DestroyerDiv or EscortDiv].

a: ii Support Division are are divided into the kind of ship types and services they provide: AuxDiv or SupportDiv, or more specialized TankDiv, TransportDiv, OrdanceDiv, TenderDiv, CourierDiv.

b: So for example a BatRon of 8 battleships with escort and auxiliaries would normally divide up into 4 BatDivs with each BatDiv with 2 battleship and 4-6 essorts and the Support/AuxDiv (or if there is a large Support/Aux assigned then there might be 2-4 Specialized Support/AuxDivs.

c: Also Colonial and Planetary space forces typically have units no larger than this. Also Local Imperial Nobility of Count/Marquis stature who have a Naval Huscarle, it would be no larger than a Division.

10: Flotilla: Again these are smaller sized units than the Division but follow the same logical pattern (around the type of ship [i.e., Battle, Cru, Carrier, Rider/Monitor, Destroyer, Escort, Courier, or Scout] or the type of duty [i.e., Battle, Assult, Strike, Support/Aux (Tanker, Tender, Transport, Cargo, etc)]. They are small sized units of 2-4 larger sized (>10Kton) ships or 3-6 smaller (<10Ktons) sized ships. They are generally units within the framework of a given Task-force, Squadron, and Division or they can be separate and independent/stand alone units. The independent/stand alone units like similar Naval Division units are under the direct control of the SubSector Commander (unless the Sector Commander reassigns them). Also Imperial Nobility of Baron stature who have a Naval Huscarle, it would be no larger than a Flotilla.

11: Ship. A ship will be divided into ship Divisions, which are organizational sections of a ship. Now for smaller (<1000 ton) ships these units are so-small and will that crew will often have several duties areas because they much smaller crew sizes than larger ships (above 10KTons) where they become very necessarily for smooth operation of a ship.

a: The Head of the Command [Bridge] is the Captain. Now the Captain is the commanding officer of the ship, his rank might be lower than Captain O6 for smaller ships [<20Ktons]. [20-4Kt sized ships the Captain is usually a Commander O5, on 4ktons-600tons ships it is usually a LtCrd O4, and on ships below 500tons, it is usually a Lieutenant O3.

b: In the large ships, the size of a division could significant, especially on large Battleship, Carriers, Fleet Tenders, etc. In larger (>70Ktons) ships, the Division Head will be a Commander 05 for major key Divisions, for lower divisions they are headed by an LtCrd 04. In smaller ships each division is usually headed by an officer 1 rank under the captain's for key divisions and 2 ranks for minor divisions. On very small ships (under 500 tons) the Head of Division might be SNCOs rather than an officer.

The Ship's Division are:
Command [Bridge]
Gunnery Major
Comms/ElecWarfare Major
Engineering Major
Flight [Opps] See Flight Ops
Medical Major
Security Minor
Fire Control/Suppression Minor
Technical Support Minor
Crew Support [Stewards, Cooks, etc] Minor


12: Flight/Air Operations:

A: Group/Wings

Please note that Flight Ops will be a much minor role on a ship that only has a number of small craft often for non-combat purposes, than for ships that have large number of small craft for combat purposes. In that case it will follow the rules of a minor division. Carriers/Dreadnoughts-Battleships with large number of squadrons (over 8) are form Air Group commands. On mid-sized ship with under 8 squadrons, then that ship operates an Air Wing at best--whose then joins up with other Air Wings of their Fleet [Naval] Squadron.

On Carriers/Dreadnoughts-Battleships these ships often have large number of combat small craft (typically between 8-10 squadrons of 10 on Battleships and Smaller carriers, 20-50 on Dreadnoughts/Larger Carriers). And this kind of unit often act independently of the ship captain but not the larger unit commander the flight units are a part of. These units of all the squadrons on a Carriers/Dreadnoughts-Battleships class ship form an Air Group are commanded by a Chief Air Group/CAG who is usually a Captain O-6.

These large Air Groups will be divided into Wings--which are composed of a number of squadrons (4 or 8 or 10) per Group--Air Wings often divide into what role they take in ops (Fleet Protection, Interceptor, Assault, Bombardment, etc). Wings are typically commanded by a Commander O5. When on a smaller ship sized unit with less than 8 but more than 1 squadron they operate as a Wing and join up with similar such wings under a Joint Air Group Chief/JACG, who is often an O6. As a rule Group and Wing Commanders stay on the ship in the Air Operations room supervising and commanding from there.

Also Both Groups and Wings have support staff and personal (i.e., personal, supply, ordnance control, maintenance inspection, logistics, etc) but not necessarily ground-crews attached (most ground-crews are attached to their squadron). Usually these units are lead by 2 ranks beneath the XOs rank.

B: Squadrons/Flights
The Standard Air/Flight unit is a squadron and it has 10 small craft in it. The commander of a Flight Squadron (AKA Squadron Leader) is usually a LtCrd O5. These like wings will be organized into what role they take in ops (Fleet Protection, Interceptor, Assault, Bombardment, etc). And the standard division of a flight squadron is into Flights A Squadron will have 2 flights of five craft. The Squadron Leader will lead one Flight and the XO (an O3) will lead the other. The other craft are piloted by O2-O1s Also some small craft have more than one crew for the particular craft--and depending on the function/mission and they are generally O1s or NCOs. Squadrons also have ground-crew attached to them and typically all working ground-crew with direct responsibility for the squ's craft are in the squadron's ops unit. Rarely will a Ground Crew will be headed by anything higher than an O1, and usually headed by SNCOs.

C: Larger units.
When larger Air units need to be organized under a CarrierRon/AssultRon where their are several Air Groups in operation (and sometimes also this will happen in a BatRon where 3-4 ships have Groups operating off them) there needs to SquAirArm/SAA. The SSA commands and coordinates all Air Groups in the Squadron and coordinates with other SAAs in other Squadrons. When the given Squadron is not operating directly under a Fleet/Task Force then the SAA reports to the Naval Squadron Commander, when it is part of Fleet/Task Force he reports to the FAChief/TFAChief--SquAirArms are commanded by either a senior O6 or O7.

FleetAirArm is the joint command of all the AirArms and Groups within a Fleet. He reports to the Fleet Admiral and is usually one rank below him/her. His job is the ops planing of all the Air Ops for the Fleet, and he needs to coordinate all the AirGroups within the given Fleet. [The TaskForceAirArm only exist for an independent Task Force (it does not arise when a Fleet is operationally divided into Task Forces) is identical to the to the FleetAirArm but is commanded by an officer one rank below the Task Force Commander and reports to him.] Both the FAA/TFAA are mostly organization--with little or no support function [support function occurs at the Group/Ship level] and a handful of staff to support and assist the FAChief/TFAChief.


Enough.. what started as a minor note turned into this. I will leave for another post the discussion of command ranks for ships and org units.

 

[aramis]

REMEMBER:
1) FSotSI isn't canonical. At all.
2) Survival Margin is mostly in character voice.
3) until 2014, the canonical Archduke of Sylea was the emperor.
4) Core Sector and Sylea Sector are synonymous.
5) Any system of organization is going to engender exceptions to it at some levels

So, the Sylean Grand fleet is the domain fleet of the Domain of Sylea, not an imperium wide fleet.
The grand admiralty at court isn't active naval persons, but the standards writers.

 

[whulorigan]

REMEMBER:

3) until 2014, the canonical Archduke of Sylea was the emperor.

Do we know for certain that this has changed? I realize the T5 Noble Patents that were given out to backers include an Archduke of Sylea, but is that just fun meta-game for us who have supported Traveller/T5, or is it representative of an actual canonical change in the way the Third Imperium is structured?

(Not trying to rain on anyone's parade . . )