Unit sizes and org of Imperial Fleet and Squ units.

[CliffBates]

Aramis,

What do you mean "FSotSI isn't canonical. At all."? Wasn't it [Fighting Ship of the Shattered Imperium] an official GDW product?

I agree with you about 3 and 4 I agree... and I don't mean the Fleet in Question is spread throughout the Imperium but an additional force in the Center to protect the core of the EMpire and to allow Core units to go to trouble spots in times of need and not leave the Core unprotected. I suspect the fact that this was the case was why Corridor fleet and Gateway chose to side with Lucan so quickly and for so long.

As for 2, but the TAS news information in Survival Margin isn't from the POV of character but news reports (even if inaccurate--surely canon).

 

[aramis]

Aramis,

What do you mean "FSotSI isn't canonical. At all."? Wasn't it [Fighting Ship of the Shattered Imperium] an official GDW product?

I agree with you about 3 and 4 I agree... and I don't mean the Fleet in Question is spread throughout the Imperium but an additional force in the Center to protect the core of the EMpire and to allow Core units to go to trouble spots in times of need and not leave the Core unprotected. I suspect the fact that this was the case was why Corridor fleet and Gateway chose to side with Lucan so quickly and for so long.

As for 2, but the TAS news information in Survival Margin isn't from the POV of character but news reports (even if inaccurate--surely canon).

Marc has said it cannot be used as canon. It doesn't describe the OTU. (Further, the ships within aren't even valid designs.)

 

[savage]

Marc has said it cannot be used as canon. It doesn't describe the OTU. (Further, the ships within aren't even valid designs.)

So, has he specifically stated that it's not canon or that the designs need correction?

 

[aramis]

So, has he specifically stated that it's not canon or that the designs need correction?

That it isn't canon.

Anyone comfortably familiar with the MT design sequences can tell you that the designs are broken.

 

[savage]

That it isn't canon.

Anyone comfortably familiar with the MT design sequences can tell you that the designs are broken.

Yeah. We all know the designs are broken but haven't looked at it in a while.
Most canon designs could be better. I was exploring the "why its not canon?" compared to the T4 starships book which strayed a bit.

 

[CliffBates]

I thought there was something very fishy about the ship designs in FSSI.

 

[aramis]

I thought there was something very fishy about the ship designs in FSSI.

More than just "fishy" - they're in violation of the design system. As in, not designed with the system, merely given "good looking stats"... without knowing the limits of the system.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, the Essex and Midway carriers could have operated a lot more planes, upto one hundred and fifty, but they could only coordinate and control half of that.

The British emphasize a lot on operational tempo to justify the tiny sizes of their currently virtual carrier air group(s).

And of course, you always need spares and replacements.

 

[CliffBates]

Then why was it allowed to go in Print and why reprint? Perhaps there needs to be a fix to insure that the they are constructed right. The pictures are so so--its just the numbers. I never was into MegaTraveller--just High Guard--so I assumed there was some rule change that I didn't know about.

Has Marc said this publically? I wish he would. And I wish he would get a team together of people who would be willing to put together a set of ships. Some of the T4/T0 ships I have seen look very good. But they aren't TL15 though. The SJG Traveller ships are very close to Book 2 in small ships design--but when they get bigger they get weird.

I am having problems dealing with T5 ship rules as they don't deal with large ships. I hope there will be a return to High Guard system for T5. I like the BITS Power Projection as it is right out of High Guard/TCS.. but it needs to be on a computer so the trajectory and movement issues will be properly reconciled... as on paper it gets too complicated.

And while Using the system of Imperium/FFW looks interesting and allows for larger fleet ops. The level of agregration of forces is very reductionistic--that is to say, it really doesn't take into account smaller units that can impact the dyanmics of a battle.

Any one who studied the battle off Samar which was the centermost action of the Battle of Leyte Gulf, and the actions of Taffy 3--a light carrier force and its destroyer escort screen know how even escort units than turn the tide of a battle. In many simulations of fleet battles using sins of solar empire mod, small ships can very much hold off a number of larger ship to allow the big ships then to come in for the kill. Yes, the small ships will get baldly mauled--but you can insure that the stronger enemy force is made utterly ineffective... and in traveller--insuring its J-drives are put out of action.

Actually.. the strike fighters job should be to go after the enemies J-drive/M-drives with missles/nukes to kill their mobility and to retreat. [Ok there are two schools of thought, on letting a defeated enemy have a way out... but I still think that you kill their mobility then get them on your own terms.]

Tomorrow is Independence Day here in Poland which is Vets Day in the US (or did they move that to Monday... its been so long that I have lived in the US)... so I hope you a good Vets day--or as the Brits call it Rememberance Day.

Regards

Clifford

 

[CliffBates]

Condottiere.... yes you are right about the Essex and Midway and that was due the limited techology of air traffic and command control of that time. But in traveller tl-12+ this ought not be a problem.... in fact there needs be a seperate bridge just for air ops on such large carrier/dreadnaughts. And AirGroup operations will run from each such ship... and for smaller carriers there needs be one ship with and AirGroup bridge to act as the AirGroup command and control for all the smaller carrier/battleship with smaller number of squadrons carried to them.

Also the battle ops of the Flag ship for a fleet needs to be much bigger than a flag ship of a squadron--both in terms of Air ops but also over coordination and control of forces. So there can be effective coordiation of attack. This is why battlestar Galactica (even in the original tv series with iits horrible special effects) gave a very good represenation of space air ops and the kind of command and control that is needed. And when you are dealing with larger battle line formations of capital ships, crusiers, destroyers, escorts etc.... there is the same amount of hands on command and control would be needed.

 

[McPerth]

More than just "fishy" - they're in violation of the design system. As in, not designed with the system, merely given "good looking stats"... without knowing the limits of the system.

And some not so good looking, as having 30 kdton battle raiders carry 300 kdton of fuel tankage for distribution (ships on pages 30, 31, 33 and 34). They din't even look for those clear tipos...

AFAIK it has not even been considered for errata, as it would need a full rewrite (and a full redesign of most ships).

 

[aramis]

Then why was it allowed to go in Print and why reprint? Perhaps there needs to be a fix to insure that the they are constructed right. The pictures are so so--its just the numbers. I never was into MegaTraveller--just High Guard--so I assumed there was some rule change that I didn't know about.

Marc wasn't in charge of Traveller during MT.
Most of MT was written by DGP in an outsourcing deal; GDW printed what they got sent. There were also computer issues - GDW was just switching from Apple II's to windows, while DGP was on macs.

Essentially, it slipped through the cracks.

 

[CliffBates]

Marc wasn't in charge of Traveller during MT.
Most of MT was written by DGP in an outsourcing deal; GDW printed what they got sent. There were also computer issues - GDW was just switching from Apple II's to windows, while DGP was on macs.

Essentially, it slipped through the cracks.

Sad, very sad... I loved Traveller and how balanced it was contrasted to other systems. I loathed Space Opera and other space games. (Heck when I was a freshman at college I knew a guy named Dan Hutto [mpsld I am trying to recall his names .. as that was back in 83-84] who created "Space Infantry" which was DnD in Space.. and he wanted to play his game vs I wanted to play a sane game... not Hobbits in Space!

This is why I am rather shocked in the direction TNE took as it was pure space opera style world... and the virus and the vampire ships..... but my rant about the virus is not relevant to his point. But while I don't like the artwork of Mongoose Traveller.. they rules and the structures and ships designs are rather in line with CT and better fixes and improvements that what happened in MegaTraveller... but I am still trying to get my head around T5.

Regards

 

[aramis]

Sad, very sad... I loved Traveller and how balanced it was contrasted to other systems. I loathed Space Opera and other space games. (Heck when I was a freshman at college I knew a guy named Dan Hutto [mpsld I am trying to recall his names .. as that was back in 83-84] who created "Space Infantry" which was DnD in Space.. and he wanted to play his game vs I wanted to play a sane game... not Hobbits in Space!

This is why I am rather shocked in the direction TNE took as it was pure space opera style world... and the virus and the vampire ships..... but my rant about the virus is not relevant to his point. But while I don't like the artwork of Mongoose Traveller.. they rules and the structures and ships designs are rather in line with CT and better fixes and improvements that what happened in MegaTraveller... but I am still trying to get my head around T5.

Regards

In no small irony, TNE was much harder on the science side, but certain setting elements (Virus, rapid social decline, forgetting the old ways in under a lifespan) were, as you say, very space opera, and not very scientifically plausible.

CT and MT, however, were both also very space opera-ish.