CT Only: UPP Attributes

[Supplement Four]

Discussions in more than one other thread have made me post this question: Do you look at the UPP numbers as a single scale, grading all humans from all worlds?

Or, are the UPP attributes contingent on the character's homeworld?

To be a bit more clear: Does a STR 7 of a character on a 1G Size 8 world represent the exact same rating as a STR 7 of a character on a 0.5 G Size 4 world?



And, let me make this a little harder to answer...

Is an EDU 8 attribute from a character on a TL 13 world the exact same as an EDU 8 of a character on a TL 4 world?



It gets even murkier when talking about SOC*.


Thoughts?







*Or does it? The Imperial Nobility SOC ratings seem to be universal across the Imperium. But, what about a King on an Imperial subject world--the King of one country on a balkanized planet. What would his SOC be? The highest available on that world? The King's equivalent rank in Imperial terms?

 

[rhialto]

Discussions in more than one other thread have made me post this question: Do you look at the UPP numbers as a single scale, grading all humans from all worlds?

Or, are the UPP attributes contingent on the character's homeworld?

To be a bit more clear: Does a STR 7 of a character on a 1G Size 8 world represent the exact same rating as a STR 7 of a character on a 0.5 G Size 4 world?

Thoughts?

It's a *Universal* scale, cleverly hidden in the title...:rofl:

But, in all seriousness: it is a universal scale in MTU, but I can see making adjustments to the UPP based on homeworld. If we ever worried so much about homeworld (which we do only for potential hooks in the campaign). However, if a player wanted to use the fact that their character was from a lower/higher gravity/tech world as a story element I wouldn't dissuade them at all.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Is an EDU 8 attribute from a character on a TL 13 world the exact same as an EDU 8 of a character on a TL 4 world?

Depends on how my players role-play their characters.

And there is the other question, is an EDU 8 attribute of a character from a TL 13 world the exact same as an EDU 8 of a character from a TL 4 world?

 

[coliver988]

It's a *Universal* scale, cleverly hidden in the title...:rofl:

But, in all seriousness: it is a universal scale in MTU, but I can see making adjustments to the UPP based on homeworld. If we ever worried so much about homeworld (which we do only for potential hooks in the campaign). However, if a player wanted to use the fact that their character was from a lower/higher gravity/tech world as a story element I wouldn't dissuade them at all.

That's how I do it was well, otherwise we'd have a LDPP - Locally Defined Personal Profile.

The social issue is trickier, though, I think. If you come from a poor world, and are one of the leaders there and have a high social level, at the Imperial Court that may mean squat. But I stick with the universal scale which may not always work well when looked at too closely.

 

[atpollard]

Do you look at the UPP numbers as a single scale, grading all humans from all worlds?

Yup.

 

[atpollard]

Does a STR 7 of a character on a 1G Size 8 world represent the exact same rating as a STR 7 of a character on a 0.5 G Size 4 world?

If Arnold Schwartzenager and I both go to the Moon, will he still be three times as strong as I am?

Is an EDU 8 attribute from a character on a TL 13 world the exact same as an EDU 8 of a character on a TL 4 world?

Is a High School Diploma earned by someone living outside the airport fence in Manila the same as a High School Diploma earned by someone living in a penthouse overlooking the airport in Washington, DC?

 

[whulorigan]

In general, the UPP is best understood as relative to the Imperial (or campaign-universe) "norm". So, standard gravity (1.0g), Standard Atmosphere (1.0 atm, 80% N₂/20% O₂ gas mix), etc. Adjust the UPP values situationally as necessary.

If Arnold Schwartzenager and I both go to the Moon, will he still be three times as strong as I am?

Yes because the difference in gravity is affecting you each equally, and will multiply your effective STR proportionally. Although, if you both stay there for an extended period, your musculature will likely atrophy and lower your STR over time without proper exercise.

Is a High School Diploma earned by someone living outside the airport fence in Manila the same as a High School Diploma earned by someone living in a penthouse overlooking the airport in Washington, DC?

Not necessarily, but then neither does one's formal education "on paper" necessarily map directly to a particular EDU value. A Diploma in one situation might "average" an EDU 5, whereas another institution (perhaps on another world) might "average" an EDU 7.

I would suggest that EDU 5+ would be average for a High School Diploma equivalent for a TL 12 world (Imperial Average).

(As an aside, in T5 the equivalent of a "GED" remedial education program granting a "basic" education necessary to get into colleges and other services will raise a low EDU to 5.)

 

[whulorigan]

The social issue is trickier, though, I think. If you come from a poor world, and are one of the leaders there and have a high social level, at the Imperial Court that may mean squat. But I stick with the universal scale which may not always work well when looked at too closely.

I would think that SOC would still be based on the interstellar standard. A local Tribal Chief may only be a SOC 7-8 on that scale. A regional or continental King on a balkanized world might be SOC 9-10. A sovereign of an important world might be SOC 12. Someone who has an unusually high SOC for the local situation probably has an unusual personal background (such as being related by blood or marriage to someone who does have a high SOC for the locality, perhaps an off-worlder).

Based on general scope of authority on an average Imperial world:

SOC / Interpretation

09 - Local World Gentry (LUC)
10 - Imperial Gentry / Lesser World Nobility (LUC)
11 - Imperial Gentry / Greater World Nobility (MUC) - Scope of 1 world
12 - Imperial Gentry/Nobility (World Royalty) (UUC) - Scope of 1 world
13 - Imperial Nobility (Greater World Royalty) (UUC+ / "Lower Imperial Class") - Scope of 1 world + Offworld subsector interests
14 - Imperial Nobility ("Lower-Middle Imperial Class") - Scope of several worlds and/or Subsector
15 - Imperial Nobility ("Upper-Middle Imperial Class") - Scope of Subsector (w/ Sector-level interests)
16 - Imperial Nobility ("Upper Imperial Class") - Scope of Multiple Sectors

 

[MichaelSTee]

I have wondered if there ought to be modifiers to some attributes(characteristics) based on homeworld stats (CT doesn't use homeworlds, but that is a feature I liked from MT).
If the world size is smaller than Terra, then should STR have a negative mod?
And if the TL is lower than Pre-Industrial, then should EDU have a negative mod?

And another (related) question: If the beginning UPP is meant to portray an 18 year old before starting a career/university/service, should there be a cap on EDU? (If an EDU of 12 means a college degree or higher, is that unreasonable for an 18-year old, especially if INT is only average or lower?)
I'm still wondering which way to go (for my own CE variant), but I worry about stepping onto a slippery slope.

But in a universe of starfaring people, you could explain a high SOC on a low population/TL world, by saying the character's family worked for an offworld noble who owned a fief/property there, and the character grew up in the household of the noble, occasionally mingling with the locals (not because they wanted to, of course; just to keep up appearances among the peasants). High EDU could be explained as a promising student given high-tech learning tools by offworlders.
And a smaller world with lesser gravity could still have grav plates built into living areas, so STR could be in a normal range.

(I still like the idea of a cap on EDU unless INT is high, in which case the character could have gone to college earlier or at least taken college-level courses.)

 

[ThornPlutonius]

I like the way SPI's Universe had a matrix within which one notes their homeworld-related characteristic and then notes the effect of variations in world conditions different from those in surrounding boxes/cells that radiate away from it.

 

[mike wightman]

The UPP denotes the standard characteristics for a character in that setting.

If you are playing in the 3I OTU then the default is a TL15 polity and 1g standard gravity.

So EDU is that of a TL15 culture, SOC is measured against the Imperial scale, physical characteristics denote performance in a 1g environment - this is why it is call a Universal profile.

Within that setting if you move outside the Imperium your Soc may not be valued as highly, your EDU may not be up to understanding TL20+ paradigms - although your Int may help you figure stuff out. Go to a high/low g world and your Str is modified.

 

[Supplement Four]

The UPP denotes the standard characteristics for a character in that setting.

If you are playing in the 3I OTU then the default is a TL15 polity and 1g standard gravity.

So EDU is that of a TL15 culture....

"I do not think it means what you think it means." — Inigo Montoya



I know that you are set on the 3I being TL 15, but that's really not correct. What you are saying is akin to saying that average human STR is 15.

According to TTB, TL 15 is the Maximum Imperial TL.

Average Imperial TL is TL 11 or 12.




According to Supp 7, X-Boats and Tenders are TL 10.

Scout Couriers are TL 9

Close Escorts are TL 14

SDB's are TL 12

And small craft are TL 8 or 9.



Most of the large Naval vessels from Sup 9 are TL 15, though.

 

[mike wightman]

Read back what you just posted and then explain how - in the setting as it became defined by HG+ - you can have a TL10 jump 4 x-boat, or a jump 2 TL9 scout or... they make sense for a letter drive universe but not the drive TL paradigm of HG and yet we are told that the HG paradigm is what describes the setting.

In Agent of the Imperium the IN is using jump 6 couriers in the 700s, they have had TL15 technology for an awfully long time. By the default start date of 1105 civilian technology has had a TL base of 15 within the core sectors for over a century, and this is the bit we have been getting wrong for a long long time, IMHO of course

The Spinward Marches and other frontier sectors lower the average TL from 15 to 12, but even within the Marches every IN base is TL15, there are TL15 industrial worlds (well three of them) and even lower TL worlds can put on displays of TL15 marvels (the museum on Aramis). The worlds of the Spinward Marches lack the population and infrastructure to be anything but the TL they are at, but the knowledge base available to them is TL15 since all they have to do is send for a few books.

Children in schools and colleges in the Marches will be educated in Imperial TL15 science paradigms, much the same way we mention quantum field theory and general relativity but the maths has to wait until college education which may require a trip off world or correspondence course or visiting tutors or robots... that is unless the planet uses its home rule privilege to keep its population in ignorance.

 

[Supplement Four]

Read back what you just posted and then explain how - in the setting as it became defined by HG+ - you can have a TL10 jump 4 x-boat, or a jump 2 TL9 scout or... they make sense for a letter drive universe but not the drive TL paradigm of HG and yet we are told that the HG paradigm is what describes the setting.

Which is my point. I think you are reading into it....not looking at the CT evidence.

TTB is pretty clear on what TL is average.

The Spinward Marches and other frontier sectors lower the average TL from 15 to 12...

Name one subsector in the Marches that averages TL 15.

Children in schools and colleges in the Marches will be educated in Imperial TL15 science paradigms, much the same way we mention quantum field theory and general relativity but the maths has to wait until college education which may require a trip off world or correspondence course or visiting tutors or robots... that is unless the planet uses its home rule privilege to keep its population in ignorance.

It seems to me that a person educated on a TL 12 world will have an experience of TL 12, not TL 15.

 

[mike wightman]

The CT evidence is that the Imperium is TL15, with the average Imperial world TL being lower because underdeveloped worlds in frontier sectors such as the Marches lower the average.

The Imperial core sectors are TL15, IN bases in the Marches are TL15, three high population worlds are TL15 and people in the Marches have a TL15 scientific/engineering paradigm available to them, only local world government dictat would prevent Imperial knowledge being common to their population.

Take Blod from TL10 Regina, all he has to do is walk into the starport and start reading up on TL15 correspondence courses to be educated to TL15 standards. TV shows or their equivalent will show the adventures of TL15 IN ships, Imperial Star Marines and the like.

A TL12 world is not isolated from the TL15 Imperium, the TL15 database is not some sort of secret knowledge; the TL16 database on the other hand...

 

[Supplement Four]

The CT evidence is that the Imperium is TL15, with the average Imperial world TL being lower because underdeveloped worlds in frontier sectors such as the Marches lower the average....


(Snip)

We have a different view on this topic.

 

[McPerth]

In general, the UPP is best understood as relative to the Imperial (or campaign-universe) "norm". So, standard gravity (1.0g), Standard Atmosphere (1.0 atm, 80% N₂/20% O₂ gas mix), etc. Adjust the UPP values situationally as necessary.

I fully agree with you, as the stats effects are the same regardless you howm world. In the case of strenght, if two charaacters have the same number, they can both carry the same weight without encoumbrance, regardless their original gravities.

Otherwise, you would have to say (as an example) that the adventage strenght for a melee weapons is A+ for low grav people, 8+ for normal grav poeple and 6+ for a hi gravity people...

It gets even murkier when talking about SOC*.

(...)

*Or does it? The Imperial Nobility SOC ratings seem to be universal across the Imperium. But, what about a King on an Imperial subject world--the King of one country on a balkanized planet. What would his SOC be? The highest available on that world? The King's equivalent rank in Imperial terms?

I always see the SOC as Imperial social position, as you're moving along the Imperium in Traveller. You can well be the son of a king at home, but if the Imperium does not recognize you as a noble, you will have no noble benefits once you leave your kinbgdom.

The home planet social status should only apply there, and hom many of you mave moved your players to their home planet all too often? After all they are Travellers, and so somewhat nomads.

 

[TNE2300]

per Supp3 Spinward Marches:

"The standard technological level for most of the interior of the lmperium is in a range between A (10) and D (13) with a general maximum of F (15); toward the fringes (such as the Spinward Marches) this range of levels is approximately 6 to B (11)"

 

[Supplement Four]

The TL Chart in TTB also shows the influence of tech bleed (although this may be a happy coincidence with the game material--or, it could have been planned).

TL 9, which is 20-30 years ago on today's Earth, has working, practical laser rifles, space craft beam laser turrets, G-Carriers and Air/Rafts, and Limb Regeneration. Oh, and a little thing known as the Jump Drive.

If we consider this, the tech bleed is built into the Tech Level.

At today's TL 10, we have grav vehicles as standard transportation, fusion energy (from TL 8), weather control (from TL 8), and ubiquitous holovision communications.

 

[kilemall]

The answer has to be yes it is the same interstellar standard of measurement and therefore DMs.



No reason to not have char specific modifiers like say a SOC 8 is a celebrity in their hometown, but still 'unremarkable solid citizen' otherwise elsewhere.


Encumbrance is encumbrance, damage is damage, skill roll with X charstat DM, charstat roll is charstat roll, etc. Too many systems even with CT's loosey goosey task methodology to not have a standard.


In most cases, just alter the stat for YTU.



So for instance if a character gets commissioned as an Imperial officer, one of the mods you could consider is that character is automatically brought up to EDU 8 just to allow working familiarization with the rest of the Imperium.


Or my fave, SOC goes up or down depending on character action and consequences.