Useful fighters

[cmdrx]

I noticed something funny about TA#7. the two sizes of fighters are 20T light fighters and 80T bombers and Strike Fighters. But all the ships carry 15T light fighters and 50T FH, and bombers. I spent a couple of hours designing a couple of variants of the 15T FL (Both Laser Armed and Missile Armed as in Sup 5 for the Rampart.) at both TL 14 and 15. Then designed 3 50 T fighters, one with straight missile armament, one with with fusion and one with a mix. (Bomber, Strike fighter and FH) again at both TL 14 and TL 15. The TL 15 fighters wound up with a crew of three (and 2 staterooms for long deloyments.) I also put together a TL 14 Zho 8t fighter under the T20 rules. (It only can manage 5G and agility 5, there just isn't room for anything more.) It also only manages 3 days worth of fuel, but since you aren't supposed to be deployed more than 12 hours without a small craft cabin I guess that doesn't matter. If anyone wants me to post the designs I will be happy to.

I was wondering about that myself when I was doing the designs. Remember I was following what Mr. Bell wrote to the letter. I was considering send a few of my fighter designs (TL's 9-15, dt 15-50) but thought they wouldn't have enough room. Maybe I'll suggest it in the next ship TA edition.

About that Zho fighter. I tried to do the same thing. (I've been converting classic High Guard ships to T20). The T20 rule requiring bridges makes it harder to make craft that small. One reason why the small fighters are 15dt and not 10 in T20.

 

[BetterThanLife]

10T works, especially if it is TL15. (Barely, but then again it was always a marginal fighter in the first place.) 8T at TL14 is a real bear I can't get it to work unless I cut the maneuver and agility to 5. I can't see how to do the 6T from Adventure 7 though. I also noticed that the table of the standard small craft (In the rule book.) the fighter is 10T.

Originally posted by cmdrx:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I noticed something funny about TA#7. the two sizes of fighters are 20T light fighters and 80T bombers and Strike Fighters. But all the ships carry 15T light fighters and 50T FH, and bombers. I spent a couple of hours designing a couple of variants of the 15T FL (Both Laser Armed and Missile Armed as in Sup 5 for the Rampart.) at both TL 14 and 15. Then designed 3 50 T fighters, one with straight missile armament, one with with fusion and one with a mix. (Bomber, Strike fighter and FH) again at both TL 14 and TL 15. The TL 15 fighters wound up with a crew of three (and 2 staterooms for long deloyments.) I also put together a TL 14 Zho 8t fighter under the T20 rules. (It only can manage 5G and agility 5, there just isn't room for anything more.) It also only manages 3 days worth of fuel, but since you aren't supposed to be deployed more than 12 hours without a small craft cabin I guess that doesn't matter. If anyone wants me to post the designs I will be happy to.

I was wondering about that myself when I was doing the designs. Remember I was following what Mr. Bell wrote to the letter. I was considering send a few of my fighter designs (TL's 9-15, dt 15-50) but thought they wouldn't have enough room. Maybe I'll suggest it in the next ship TA edition.

About that Zho fighter. I tried to do the same thing. (I've been converting classic High Guard ships to T20). The T20 rule requiring bridges makes it harder to make craft that small. One reason why the small fighters are 15dt and not 10 in T20. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[cmdrx]

The only way to make the small ships from HG work in T20 is to adopt the HG rule allowing no bridges. The installed computer acts one level lower if no bridge is installed. This can create a Model "0" computer. I'm thinking of doing this in house, with the Model/0 having limited range comms and sensors as well (Visual range). In starship scale thats an automatic -2 to sensor rolls even in its own hex. Pretty much how it would work with aerospace fighters designed using vehicle rules fighting on starship scale anyway.

This house rule will allow alot of interesting things to be built. Remote operated drones and defense satalites (computer only, no pilot couch) and very small fighter craft.

 

[mike wightman]

Well in my opinion the half size bridge rule should extend to smallcraft.
A 2t bridge plus a 0.5t acceleration couch is much more managable for small fighter design and doesn't bend the rules too much.
As it is a robotic fighter should be able to do without the 2 acceleration couches and shave 1t off the bridge requirement.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by cmdrx:
The only way to make the small ships from HG work in T20 is to adopt the HG rule allowing no bridges. The installed computer acts one level lower if no bridge is installed. This can create a Model "0" computer. I'm thinking of doing this in house, with the Model/0 having limited range comms and sensors as well (Visual range). In starship scale thats an automatic -2 to sensor rolls even in its own hex. Pretty much how it would work with aerospace fighters designed using vehicle rules fighting on starship scale anyway.

This house rule will allow alot of interesting things to be built. Remote operated drones and defense satalites (computer only, no pilot couch) and very small fighter craft.

If I'd have noticed it mssing during playtest, i would have raised a stink then... <G>

Seriously, I think it is probably an oversight. Take it to the T20 questions forum...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Re-reading the design rules for T20. Does the small craft bridge include 2 small craft couches or doesn't it. Page 275 says it does but all the "Standard" desings have couches, implying that the bridge doesn'tinclude couches. (Cramping your space even farther.)

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Re-reading the design rules for T20. Does the small craft bridge include 2 small craft couches or doesn't it. Page 275 says it does but all the "Standard" desings have couches, implying that the bridge doesn'tinclude couches. (Cramping your space even farther.)

Since it is, in fact, based upon HG, yes, it shouldl include two couches ON THE BRIDGE in its 4+ tons.

The other couches are probably for a flight engineer and a loadmaster, and/or passengers

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Re-reading the design rules for T20. Does the small craft bridge include 2 small craft couches or doesn't it. Page 275 says it does but all the "Standard" desings have couches, implying that the bridge doesn't include couches. (Cramping your space even farther.)

Yes, Hunter has writ that the small craft bridge includes 2 couches and it is (or was supposed to be) in the errata file. It was also supposed to be fixed in the standard design errata file but I think it got missed there (and likely in the reprint).

Also cramping your space further is the requirement of a computer and the letter of the rule (and examples) of maximum model number = dT/10 implying that the smallest small craft possible is 10dT. I also asked Hunter about this and he said to round up (despite the clear examples, he might have changed his mind). I've been sticking to the letter of the rule and the examples recently and it's not a big issue with my house rule of a model/0 computer suite and "bridge" allocations. I'm recently tempted to call any less than 10dT craft a vehicle and apply the rules for damage scaling. The T20MTU rules here are in some flux as I look for a way to make it more backwards compatible and (at least for this non-Vulcan) internally logical

Not quite in the letter of the rules but after my last (nth) read of the Bridge descriptions what I've been doing IMTU is taking half the "bridge" volume as C&C including couches and workstations (1 per 2dT).

For example. A minimal small craft bridge (which I lable Helm until it's 20dT) of 4.0dT includes C&C of 2.0dT which is one couch and workstation (~1.0dT) and various systems (~1.0dT) such as lifters, landing struts, etc.

The remaining "bridge" tonnage is used for any other equipment or use but paid for normally. This may include computers, lockers, freshers, airlocks (of any size from 0.5dT and up) quarters, etc., in fact anything. It may even be designated as hardpoint volume for a weapon(s), or simply left open for later use. The only restriction is that it fit completely in the "bridge" volume. The "bridge" is treated as a seperate bulkhead sealed volume just like the "fuel", "engineering", "cargo" and "hanger" sections, at no extra cost. Other areas designated as bulkhead seperated come at an added cost of Mcr0.1 per dT, just like the missile magazines. Hardpoint designated volumes are also bulkhead seperated, and included in the cost but the volume must be set at construction time.

This is all very much MTU as I said, but it does let me get closer to some of the old CT/HG designs and seems in the spirit of the rules. YMMV.

So what's the good of bulkheads? Well they keep out bad stuff like noise, heat, cold, vacuum, and such. I don't use the books listed AR of 1 for missile magazines (and under these MTU rules bulkheads in general) since it doesn't jive with the rules. Instead it just allows that combat damage does not migrate and if one area is exposed to damage or vacuum or whatever the other areas are unaffected.

Anywho just a few more thoughts tossed into the aether

 

[BetterThanLife]

So the standard compliment for an FL is 3? It looks like someone goofed in the "Standard designs" for the small craft. It isn't like all other RPGs don't have the same problem.

Originally posted by Aramis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Re-reading the design rules for T20. Does the small craft bridge include 2 small craft couches or doesn't it. Page 275 says it does but all the "Standard" desings have couches, implying that the bridge doesn'tinclude couches. (Cramping your space even farther.)

Since it is, in fact, based upon HG, yes, it shouldl include two couches ON THE BRIDGE in its 4+ tons.

The other couches are probably for a flight engineer and a loadmaster, and/or passengers </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
So the standard compliment for an FL is 3? It looks like someone goofed in the "Standard designs" for the small craft. It isn't like all other RPGs don't have the same problem.

You might want to double check; someone may not have noticed that the "No Bridge" option ISN'T in T20...

 

[BetterThanLife]

All the small craft in the T20 rulebook have small craft couches. The FL in the book has one eventhough it lists the crew of the FL as 1. The rest of the small craft have 2. The really weird thing is that in CT the bridge included things like Avionics, Sensors and Comms. Now they are part of the Computer. Scout/Couriers have no real sensors nor do they have more than rudimentary Communications Capability. And they don't have a big enough powerplant to call it a swap out unless they pulled the engine apart as well as removing the Comms and Sensor systems before declaring it surplus.

Originally posted by Aramis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
So the standard compliment for an FL is 3? It looks like someone goofed in the "Standard designs" for the small craft. It isn't like all other RPGs don't have the same problem.

You might want to double check; someone may not have noticed that the "No Bridge" option ISN'T in T20... </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BetterThanLife]

Ok Back to shooting up fighters. Rereading the T20 rulebook, in the Appendix in the back, the typical Naval Gunner has a Gunnery skill of 11, plus skill focus for ships weapons. Missile bay vs Fighter. 11 (Gunner Skill) + 2 (Focus) + 9 (UPC code of the Missile Bay) + 8/9 (Sensor targeting if the sensor tech is at least half competent) + 3 ( 1/3 Leadership of the commander commanding.) + 2 (Fleet Tactics of the Fleet Commander.) = 35/36 + D20. Best AC I have been able to give a FH is 32. Each non Critical hit will do 4-5D6 (The best 4-5 D6 out of 19 dice) + 1d12 - 5 or 6 Radiation damage. A Critical hit will average 315 points of damage. (More than double the SI of any Fighter (Almost half the SI of a Cruiser and most if not all the SI of a Destroyer.) With a 15% chance for a Crit. An Atlantic Class Cruiser will Crit 3 fighters per turn and do 1/3rd of the SI to an additional 18 fighters per turn. In 6 turns a Cruron, minus escorts, will destroy the entire complement of fighters from a Fleet Carrier. (Just using the missile bays.) Once the fighters can detect the CruRon, return fire is pitiful. Grouping your fighters into Squadrons of 10 fighters each. Factor 7 missile fire, using Laser heads instead of Nuclear because Crusiers generally have Nuclear Dampers. You get 45 shots. Point defense shots from the Cruisers (Again ignoring any escorts) gets 21 shots per Cruiser. 13+9+ 8 or 9 + 1D20 to get a target number of 23.
In other words 8 Atlantic Crusiers can stop 168 missile shots indefinitely. Using Fusion Armed Fighters in the mix, provided any survive to reasonable engagement range, and allowing them to attack independently, they would need to roll (using the same gunners) 11+2+5+ D20 for 18 + Sand (Factor 9 16 batteries.) If there are enough of them left they could damage an Atlantic Especially if they score a Crit. (You better have more than 8 survive the run in and all of them concentrate on one Cruiser.) Depending on how you read the Defensive Sand rules. Since Sand hangs around if you aren't changing heading and speed, Is it one attack in a turn that the sand helps with or all? The rules are a little ambiguous. But if you aren't worried about cost or crews, if you equipped all your fighters with Fusion Guns and sent them out you could actually do damage to a Cruiser. A Crit from a single Fusion does an average of 262.5 SI damage. (About a third of the SI of a typical Cruiser.) Without a Crit against an Atlantic any other hits will get you 1d20-6 in damage. (Or an average of about 4.5 points. Though it is the best of 5 dice.)

Expect to lose your entire Fighter Wing. Missile Armed Fighters against Capital ships are useless. And unless you start fairly close you can expect to maybe damage one Capital Ship. Then the Cruisers reverse Course, the Spinal mounts will open up on your fleet and Poof. Remember Spinal Meson Cannons Crit on a 10 and do an average of 168 points of SI on a regular hit and 1680 points of SI on a Crit. (Or twice the SI of the Perisher Class Drednaught.)

In a Fleet Action Fighters are, at best, a delaying tactic. And you need a whole lot of them to get any damage in at all. It takes less than 6 turns for a Cruron to kill 450 fighters. And Cruisers are only a little slower than a Fighter. (In some cases they are just as fast as a fighter.)450 fighters costs about as much as a Cruiser and a half. A Fleet Carrier costs about as much as 2 Cruisers. Not a cost effective way to fight a fleet action.

Keep your fighters for Ground Support or Pirate chasing, or Merchant Policing, Or Planet Interdiction. Keep them out of combat with Fleet elements.

 

[aramis]

You're assuming that damage spills over from fighter to fighter. It doesn't.

Also, those fighters can group theirfire to generate higher effective USP's. (Factor 9 Laser attacks, Anyone?) which have btter chances to penetrate.

Sand only applies to one incoming battery-shot if fired by a ship under maneuver. It applies to all incoming shots if the ship has not maneuvered during the turn of launch nor since the turn of launch.

PA armed fighters are a better alternative...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually I am doing damage to fighters. Shooting at new ones after the old ones are destroyed. Each Fighter taking an average of three regular hits to render it combat ineffective, and a 15% chance of a Critical hit. You may crit a fighter you have already hit but in the grand scheme of things with the number of missile bays firing it doesn't really matter. Missiles can open up at 126 hexes (+/- vector at time of launch of launching craft.) With a typical Cruiser, especially the Atlantic at either TL14 or 15, having 5g Accel and the typical Fighter with 6G it will be a long chase with fighters taking fire all the way in. If the Cruisers take a Vector towards the Carrier and stop maneuvering when the fighters get into range of firing and coast towards the Carrier and Spinal range of the Carrier then trigger all their sand the fighters can't hit. But they can still be hit.

The PA fighters is an interesting idea. THe power requirements and tonnage requirement of the Turret is nasty but if you are at TL 15 you can fit it without sacrificing too much surivivability. You would score 2D12 + 2D10 Rad damage on a regular hit. The problem would be hitting but at least you don't have to get to the same hex.

I like the idea of equiping all 450 fighters in the wing with missiles then showering the target with 450 factor 3 laserheads. Expensive, but at least it will do a couple of points of damage per hit. (1d6 + 8)D8 - AF10. If the Cruisers are maneuvering at least some will get through.

Of course you will only get off about ten shots and each round your number of shots goes down as your fighters get blown up. Battery shots (With the exception of the PA fighters, Sand and Point defense lasers will stop most incoming vollies. The TL 14 Atlantic can by itself stop 36 missle vollies per turn. Bring two Atlantics and allow them to interlock point defense fire and your missiles don't get through at all. Between two atlantics, using just the missile batteries for now, they crit 9 fighters per turn (Vaporizing them.) and damage 51. On average it takes 3-4 turns to kill an FH (With AF14) Call it 4. In 8 turns they have killed approximately 174 fighters. Half a Cruron (4) will kill all the fighters from the Fleet carrier or a Tigress from Sup 9 in 8 turns. Since they are only one point of maneuver drive different from the fighters they could probably stand them off for that long. (And that is only if you are using Heavy Fighters with 14-15 points of armor on them. The FH from Sup 9 dies in 2 turns.) Against the Fleet Carrier from TA7 Things will get dicey because it still will have around 100 fighters left. Even without using other mounts it will take an additional 3-4 turns to finish them all off. By then they could actually close to effective range for non-missiles. But also by that time there are so few left that a single Atlantic can double sand more than half the shots and single sand the others. If we are dealing with Factor 9 Laser of Fusion shots.

The PA angle means more thought will have to be put into this.

Originally posted by Aramis:
You're assuming that damage spills over from fighter to fighter. It doesn't.

Also, those fighters can group theirfire to generate higher effective USP's. (Factor 9 Laser attacks, Anyone?) which have btter chances to penetrate.

Sand only applies to one incoming battery-shot if fired by a ship under maneuver. It applies to all incoming shots if the ship has not maneuvered during the turn of launch nor since the turn of launch.

PA armed fighters are a better alternative...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
...the typical Naval Gunner has a Gunnery skill of 11, plus skill focus for ships weapons. Missile bay vs Fighter. 11 (Gunner Skill) + 2 (Focus)...

Minor nitpick/correction. It's actually just +11 (not 11+2), the Skill Focus +2 is already factored into the Gunner rating. All of the skills listed already have any modifiers factored.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Thanks Didn't realize that. Still dealing with hits on a 1+ though.

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
...the typical Naval Gunner has a Gunnery skill of 11, plus skill focus for ships weapons. Missile bay vs Fighter. 11 (Gunner Skill) + 2 (Focus)...

Minor nitpick/correction. It's actually just +11 (not 11+2), the Skill Focus +2 is already factored into the Gunner rating. All of the skills listed already have any modifiers factored. </font>[/QUOTE]