Using captured ships

[Selandia]

How easy is it to use captured ship?

I expect it to be a major issue given a comment of McPERTH in another thread

"The true failure I've allways thought the big ships combat system in CT (and MT, wich was nearly unchanged) was the lack of ships destroyed in combat.
Most of the ship crippling in this combat system came from minor damage ...but the chance of a ship vaporized critical is minimal.
In a battle among 20 ships per side, the usual result is 1 or 2 vaporized at most, and most of the others crippled, but easly repairable. So, the 'winner' of the engagement hasa a big victory, for, even if he only has a handful of ships not crippled, most of his other ships will be combat ready on a short time with damage control, and quite easy to repair in a shipyard, and most of enemy's crippled ships can be easly captured."

Indeed, historically, captured wooden ship were routinely put in service by their captor.

Iron ship tended to be sunk or scuttled, unless
a) mutiny during a civil war (ex: russian revolution or spanish civil war)
b) taken at the anchorage, sometime after scuttling/raising (ex:Toulon)
c) surendered (end of WWI and II, although a major part of the german fleet scuttled at Scapa)
d) surrrender at sea, single occurance I know is the russian fleet at Tsushima

Spaceship dont "sink at the bottom", in that respect, most of a defeated fleet is there for the grab although it might be "flooded by vacuum" (if you'll excuse the oxymoron) and pose a salvage problem much greater than dismasted Man o'War. So, how easy is it to use them?

In Corsair / Pirate adventures, the level of standardisation within the Imperium make it very easy. A spaceship pilot could grab the control of about anything that require a spaceship pilot and proceed. Type C drives from book 2 are type C drives onboard any ship and a ship engineer is an ship engineer. The whole point of standard ships (way beyond saving the architect's fee) is to be able to find spare parts and qualified crew all over the Imperium. The feel is much like the 1910 shipping industry, with steam triple expansion engine and "Scotch" or cylindrical boiler in general use (not universal, mind you), or the sailing ship with no significant functionnal national specificity (using 32 pounder or 36 pounder is not significant for the purpose of this point) after the XVII century (although most navies, as navy. did keep specificity)

What about High Guard?

Using somebody else's ship involve access (limited destruction and password). It involve knowledge. Continuous usage involve spare parts and specific ammunition.

Civil war pose no problem. Transfert between helpfull friends pose little problems (just think lend lease) But war prize between empire that do not even use the same alphabet and that force you to figure very high tech secret device by reverse enfinering?

Thoughts about this?

Selandia

 

[HG_B]

Well, to move the thing (after gaining comp access) just involves engineering. Aside from alphabet (a translation hand comp), the engineers figure out the main controls (M-drives have the same functionality for instance). Same for other main compartments. The super secret cloaking device will be figured out at the Sector Depot.

Not hard at all.

 

[Enoki]

A modern warship on Earth is a complex piece of machinery. A starship is likely to be far more complex than that. Other than a possible language barrer there would be the differences in systems on the capture to one's own. A really good prize crew might figure out the systems sufficently to operate it (assuming it is in somewhat working condition). Average crew members (say a 1 or 2 in a particular skill) would likely be facing formidable challenges in just getting the thing to run.
Then there is damage. If critical systems are damaged it is highly unlikely (mulitple formidable or impossible tasks) they can get the ship running. It most likely would have to be put under tow. A good example of this from WW 2 would be the capture of U-505. The US boarded and captured this German U-boat. It was partially flooded. The prize crew contained the flooding and kept it afloat. But, they were completely unable to operate it so it was towed to port.
Given time and resources a prize crew and the capturing ship(s) might have the skills and materials to get a prize underway but it would be quite a formidable task to do so.
Another problem is the minimum crew needed to operate the ship. The capturing ship(s) may not have the necessary crew to man the prize completely and operate it at even a minimal level. A modern naval frigate would take a crew of about 20 to operate just the critical propuslion and maneuvering systems. That doesn't include watch changes to allow for rest.

See figure 6-22 on this site:

http://compass.seacadets.org/pdf/nrtc/fn/14104_ch6.pdf

That is the engineering operating station for an FFG-7 frigate. It takes minimally 3 people and optimally 6 to run things. You might get away with 2 if nothing went wrong.
You need two on the main panel, one on the electric panel and optionally one on the DC panel along with a supervisor to control confusion (3 to 6).
Those panels are not straight forward either. You need to know what you are doing. There are certain sequences for starting things for instance. If everything isn't done in the proper order you get alarms and locked out of continuing the sequence to prevent damage to equipment. Some stuff has to be started remote from the station too. That makes things more complex.
It isn't going to be any easier on a starship.

 

[HG_B]

A modern warship on Earth is a complex piece of machinery.

The basic propulsion and helm controls are no more complex that other ships. Diesel engines etc.

 

[Winterwolf]

Capturing a modern Naval Ship

Having served in the navy in the 1980's my friends and I one night during a traveller game figured out the minium needed to sail a spurance class destroyer (we were serving on one at the time) we figured it would take no more than twenty people to do it.

 

[far-trader]

Twenty key knowledge and skilled people I expect

And that's probably without the ship being damaged.

I think the answer to the original question depends on a lot of variables.

I also think all sides in a conflict may very well have prize crews for the specific purpose, well versed in the opposition's tech including language and systems operations for the sole purpose of re-purposing captured ships. They'd even be helpful in repairing and re-crewing your own ships after damage and casualties.

To counter this I also see ships having final option self destruct mechanisms. Even if not something so crazy as StarTrek's voice countdown to total annihilation. Like was mentioned (iirc) something as simple as slagging the computer. That will preserve the hull for your own survivors while leaving little of use to the enemy.

It all comes down to the sides in the conflict. And you own desire for the game. If you want it to be possible then it should be. Leaving only the details and difficulty to you to figure out

CT HG suggests it is done. The rules outline how to perform boarding actions for the purpose of capturing the ship, presumably intact, not counting the combat damage that set up the boarding action in the first place (slagged power plant and no missiles; or maneuver drive and offensive weapons dead; and no functioning black globe generator - then it must be separated from friendly forces and successfully boarded). So there is game precedence to suggest it is done, is possible, and that scuttling is not guaranteed/practiced (not practiced seems silly to me). I'd probably make it a function of the boarding action. If successful on the first attempt, scuttling is prevented. If boarders are repelled then the crew may attempt to scuttle their ship - maybe a 8+ roll, without telling the opposition - if successful the ship is destroyed in the next round, possibly taking the boarders with it if a second boarding attempt is made. Something like that. Just to keep it simple, quick, and interesting.

 

[rancke]

In this case, I tend to go with the 18th Century parallels. If an enemy ship surrenders, you stop shooting at it. If they stop shooting at you, you don't destroy their prize (if you do, they'll stop accepting your surrenders). Exception: You do destroy any secret information you have and they accept that.

Keep in mind that the Imperium and the Zhodani have prisoner exchanges during war, and that the Imperials were outraged that the Sword Worlders attacked without prior declaration of war. There appear to be certain conventions of war in place.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Sounds pretty reasonable Hans. But was it more an honoured practice than an actual rule of war? Any more modern examples? I can think of some cases in the World Wars that didn't follow that rule, and some that did, suggesting it may have been an honoured practice and not a formal rule of war at that time. I also suspect it was not always followed even in earlier times. Enough so that it was practiced certainly, but not guaranteed.

Still, the Imperium is somewhat painted as an honourable and honour bound (though perhaps not our concept of such) so they may do so. And you note Zho/Imp prisoner exchanges so that suggests a like system on that side. I wonder if there's anything about the other big front with the Solllies?

I wonder how much of a higher TL ship would be considered secret? Enough that the IN would scuttle all such ships facing capture by the Zhos? And what of the Zho's psionic switches and such?

 

[far-trader]

FWIW, on second consideration, the CT HG rules seem to suggest that surrender is not accepted until after a successful boarding action. Ships stop shooting but the crews still fight, personally. So I kind of like my little boarding action scuttling addition.

On the first boarding attempt scuttling is not considered, but perhaps readied, and as you note sensitive items will be destroyed. If boarding is successful the ship surrenders and is taken intact as a prize (i.e. the boarders presented a strong enough opposition to force a surrender, though casualties may have been incurred in buying time for sensitive items to be destroyed).

If subsequent boarding attempts are made then the ship may (player's option) be scuttled, for being provoked (surrender terms not accepted?) but the boarders may be able to prevent the scuttling. If they take the ship they prevent the scuttling and save the prize. If they fail to take the ship...

 

[rancke]

FWIW, on second consideration, the CT HG rules seem to suggest that surrender is not accepted until after a successful boarding action. Ships stop shooting but the crews still fight, personally. So I kind of like my little boarding action scuttling addition.

Where does it say that the ships stop shooting? Do the rules define what it means by a disabled ship anywhere?

I don't see this as a contradiction. If the captain of a disabled ship feels he has a shot at escaping, he may choose not to surrender. In that case the opponent can keep shooting until he gets enough crew hits to reduce the crew to 0, or he can board. But if the captain of a disabled ship wants to be not shot at, he surrenders. And if he does, his crew doesn't keep fighting. If they did, what's to prevent the enemy from keeping on shooting?


Hans

 

[Shonner]

The swords. What about the swords? No one really uses guns out in space do they?

 

[Peter Schutze]

I would base it on familiarity and preparation by both sides.

The US Airforce paid a lot of cash for working deployed MiGs - If your navy knows lots about the specific enemy shipclass you have a headstart.

If the enemy has plenty of time to purge the comps (likely) thats a minus but give them time to physically burnout controlboards and your looking at days of improvisation to get to the point you can start

Your preparation might be to have crew teams ready with bypass equipment etc which assumes you know enough to tailor the kit

 

[McPerth]

In this case, I tend to go with the 18th Century parallels. If an enemy ship surrenders, you stop shooting at it. If they stop shooting at you, you don't destroy their prize (if you do, they'll stop accepting your surrenders). Exception: You do destroy any secret information you have and they accept that.

Keep in mind that the Imperium and the Zhodani have prisoner exchanges during war, and that the Imperials were outraged that the Sword Worlders attacked without prior declaration of war. There appear to be certain conventions of war in place.


Hans

First of all, I must say I feel quite honored that a subject just mentioned in another thread by a newbee like me deserves such attention as to start a new thread in full.

After that is said, I must say that I was not talking about boarding actions, but about the aftermath of a battle.

About what Hans say, I must remember that Geneva Convention is not in force in imperium wars (perhaps the solomani try to keep on it, out of tradition, but as Vilani&Varg MT book says, Vilani feel the taking of war prisioners ineficient unless they can be kept as hostages or for interrogation, but doesn't seem to say they routinely accept surrunder terms. Zho's probably will and Vargs will depend on ther mood that day).

What I intended to say in my former exposition was that, taking HG/MT battle system as it is, in the aftermath of a battle, there whould be quite a lot of crippled ships just to be taken. Most crippled ships are so for lack of fuel or crew (in HG, few ships will have crew remaining after 3 crew hits [though it's not explicited in HG rules, we always assumed a ship reduced to 0 crew is 'dead in space'] MT fixed it with the crew sections rule), so, unless their crew (if any) scuttles it, they can be taken for good.

Let's imagine the engagement among about 20 ships by side I used in exemple. It's rebellion and both sides are former imperials, so let's say we have 2 tenders and about 12-14 BR and half dozen escorts and swarms of fighters per side. The loser's tenders are likely to flee the system (let's suppose they were fueled) with some BR (let's say they recovered the first 4 to be crippled). Fighters whould be nearly all destroyed or recovered by the tenders. Escorts are all crippled by spinal messon guns. let's assume one escort and one BR destroyed by 'ship vaporized' criticals (due to low tonnage of them against bis spinal messons). That leaves about 5 escorts and 7-9 BRs to be taken.

Threatened with being left on their own at space, the ships wich still have crew (quite a few in HG, most of them in MT) don't scuttle and the crew are taken as prisioners (put in cold sleep in the tenders). The tenders reactivate their frozzen watch to have minimal crews to make damage control on the BRs as, if they can leave their own intact BRs in the system, take the captured crippled BRs to a base to be repaired. Even if computers where destroyed, they can be in reported for duty in 5-8 weeks (TCS repair time for a critical) after they arrive to the base.

If the combat was among battleships, the taking to the base is a little more difficult (remember in the same entry on the other tread I talked about recovery by 'space tugs'), but the lack of criticals (higher tonnage) will speed the repair time to 1-4 weeks (probably you'd need more to have crews ready that to repair them).

When you compare that with wet navy, you must remember that (as someone has already said) wet ships sink to the bottom, making recovery impractical at best (unless in port, where sometimes they can be salvaged), while spaceships just remain dead in space, for anyome to take.

Needless to say, the winners crippled ships (there will be some too) are even easier to recovery, due to their not destroyed (or reparaible) computers and de collaboration of their crews.

So this large battle (about 2-3 million dtons per side) ends with only about 100-200 kdton destroyed and another 250 kdtons captured by the winner (and I didn't assume any boarding taking place...). Just a 2-4% of dtons destroyed.

As you see, I cannot see it consistent with the tonnage losses reported by TASN in the rebellion.

Of course, in frontier wars, where ships come from different empires (Zho's, Varg's, Sword's and Imperial's) that may be a little more difficult, but hulls can still be recovered, letting to anyone's guess how many of them are refitted for own uses.

 

[rancke]

After that is said, I must say that I was not talking about boarding actions, but about the aftermath of a battle.

About what Hans say, I must remember that Geneva Convention is not in force in imperium wars (perhaps the solomani try to keep on it, out of tradition, but as Vilani&Varg MT book says, vilani feel the taking of war prisioners ineficient unless they can be kept as hostages or for interrogation, but doesn't seem to say they routinely accept surrender terms. Zho's probably will and Vargs will depend on ther mood that day).

18th Century European countries and Civil War Americans didn't have any Geneva Conventions either, but they did have conventions of war. IIRC (I didn't feel like dragging out my V&V, so correct me if I'm wrong) the "Vilani" attitude to conduct of war pertained to Vilani belonging to the monolithic culture of the Siru Zirka. Such attitudes are not hardwired into Homo sapiens vlandensis any more than they are in Homo sapiens sapiens.

There has been no mention of any interstellar equivalent to the Geneva conventions, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any conventions of war. The Imperium could quite easily establish something like that unilaterally ("This is how we intend to treat our prisoners of war. If you don't do the same with yours, we'll hang your leaders if we win." Even deep-dyed Vilani traditionalists might want to think twice about mistreating POWs -- not that the Vilani Cultural Sphere has fought anyone on its own for over a millenium.)


Hans

 

[McPerth]

There has been no mention of any interstellar equivalent to the Geneva conventions, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any conventions of war. The Imperium could quite easily establish something like that unilaterally ("This is how we intend to treat our prisoners of war. If you don't do the same with yours, we'll hang your leaders if we win." Even deep-dyed Vilani traditionalists might want to think twice about mistreating POWs -- not that the Vilani Cultural Sphere has fought anyone on its own for over a millenium.)


Hans

I didn't talk about the treat given to prisoniers, but about taking them. Is quite logical to think there are some unwriten rules about how to wadge war without resorting to widespread destruction, but even the Geneva conventions are no more than a chevaliers' agreement, as there is no one to enforce them but the threat of retaliation.

Even so, there are many instances where they have been broken (mostly in the taking and treating of prisioners we talk about) or been conditioned to terms of surrunding (e.g. in the Chaco war, the Paraguayans threatend the Bolivians by saying that if they destroy their lorry pool, the Paraguaian's won't use theirs to carry water for the prisoners).

I think this can be a widespread attitude in the space war about caturing crippled starships (this starship you're on is the one you will use to go to prisoner camp, so beware any unnecessary destruction...).

This is not to say that sensible information on the computer (or the computer itself) may not be destroyed (as probably it has to be replaced anyway to put the ship to own use), but not outright scuttling of the ship if they want to be taken as prisoners instead of being left floating in the void (if not useing their lifeboats for gunnery practice, that's neither unherard about...)

 

[ssgbryan]

If using MT, it is pretty easy

One data point - in the design sequence, controls can be dymanically reconfigured.
Second data point - All depots have aggressor squadrons made up of Threat ships.

So, I have completed a battle w/the Zhos & I have caputured X number of ships.

So, as an Imp (or anyone else for that matter), I'll have emulation software that I can load up into the computer to translate Zho panel controls, I have user manuals from previous captures, and trained crew from the aggressor squadrons.

I will move the ships (with Imp escorts) back to Depot. There they can either be repaired (lowest priority, of course) & added to the aggressor squadron or simply used as a cannibalization ship.

The hard part w/ a Zho ship is all of the psionically activated switches. Those will have to be replaced.

 

[rancke]

I didn't talk about the treat given to prisoners, but about taking them.

The question of surrender is inextricably linked with the question of what treatment prisoners can expect. The worse the treatment is likely to be, the more the losing party will be disposed to sell themselves dearly.

Is quite logical to think there are some unwriten rules about how to wage war without resorting to widespread destruction, but even the Geneva conventions are no more than a chevaliers' agreement, as there is no one to enforce them but the threat of retaliation.

Or the threat of ostracism. During the Napoleonic Wars an officer who behaved dishonorably could expect to be treated with contempt by his own peers. As I said in a previous post, I'm going with the 18th Century vibe in this matter. We know of the existence of prisoner exchanges and declarations of war. IIRC there's also a mention somewhere of the Imperium charging one of its own for violations of the rules of war. I don't see why such things as paroles, words of honor, and codes of conduct about the treatment of civilians and POWs shouldn't exist too.

You don't need international treaties and courts and sanctions to enforce a code of conduct. What you need is for people (Well, The People Who Count, anyway) to believe in them -- or affect to believe in them. And during the Classic Era I submit that it's quite possible that such attitudes prevail. Did they apply during the Civil War? I don't know. Did Dulinor ram a stake through them when he kicked off the Rebellion? If he didn't then Lucan did. But that's all right. Things change. What applies in one era does not necessarily apply in another.


Hans

 

[BlackBat242]

The basic propulsion and helm controls are no more complex that other ships. Diesel engines etc.

Yep... but the parts in those controls and diesels are NOT interchangeable with parts from controls and diesels manufactured by different companies... much less different nations.

 

[HG_B]

Yep... but the parts in those controls and diesels are NOT interchangeable with parts from controls and diesels manufactured by different companies... much less different nations.

I'm not talking repair. Only operation. But since you brought it up, they would do what any ship would if it didn't have a spare. Make one in the ships shop. Otherwise, if on solo patrol and something that you didn't have a spare for broke, you'd be SOL.

 

[McPerth]

The question of surrender is inextricably linked with the question of what treatment prisoners can expect. The worse the treatment is likely to be, the more the losing party will be disposed to sell themselves dearly.


Or the threat of ostracism. During the Napoleonic Wars an officer who behaved dishonorably could expect to be treated with contempt by his own peers. As I said in a previous post, I'm going with the 18th Century vibe in this matter. We know of the existence of prisoner exchanges and declarations of war. IIRC there's also a mention somewhere of the Imperium charging one of its own for violations of the rules of war. I don't see why such things as paroles, words of honor, and codes of conduct about the treatment of civilians and POWs shouldn't exist too.

You don't need international treaties and courts and sanctions to enforce a code of conduct. What you need is for people (Well, The People Who Count, anyway) to believe in them -- or affect to believe in them. And during the Classic Era I submit that it's quite possible that such attitudes prevail. Did they apply during the Civil War? I don't know. Did Dulinor ram a stake through them when he kicked off the Rebellion? If he didn't then Lucan did. But that's all right. Things change. What applies in one era does not necessarily apply in another.


Hans

For what Hard Times says, it seemms that Lucan didn't mind about that honor code, and Dulinor retaliated in kind. Black War is just the worst example of this thinking, but it seems Lucan even ostracized (or directly punished) his grade officiers that enforced those rules of war, not those that broke them. Margaret seems to enforce them. No reference is done (or at least I haven't seen any) about other factions ( I still think Solomani will, even if just out of tradition).