Using captured ships

[Ishmael]

I'm not talking repair. Only operation. But since you brought it up, they would do what any ship would if it didn't have a spare. Make one in the ships shop. Otherwise, if on solo patrol and something that you didn't have a spare for broke, you'd be SOL.

So, what you're saying is that any part can be made in a ship's shop?
Wouldn't that mean a ship's shop, given enough raw materials and time could completely build any ship it had plans for, part by part? or if it didn't have plans, any ship it could make educated guesses about?

Who needs shipyards?

no...a lot of ships will just be SOL
and no, most ships will not be operating solo like that, without support
not in my opinion anyways

 

[Vile]

Wouldn't that mean a ship's shop, given enough raw materials and time could completely build any ship it had plans for, part by part? [...] Who needs shipyards?

Anyone who actually wanted a ship for themselves rather than for their grandchildren.

I suspect that imperial ships, at least, would be a lot more standardised and easy to operate than today's virtually-one-of-a-kind warships.

 

[HG_B]

So, what you're saying is that any part can be made in a ship's shop?

Nope. reread it.

 

[Ishmael]

I read it just fine the first time..

.........they would do what any ship would if it didn't have a spare. Make one in the ships shop. Otherwise, if on solo patrol and something that you didn't have a spare for broke, .......

unless the ship has unbreakable parts, any part can break and thus you said the shop would make the part that broke.....therefore, any part.....or, over time, every part.
which would also imply that this shop could make pretty much anything from the corresponding tech level, if it had to.

I really think it needs to be narrowed down to "card level" or "mechanical" or something
I would think there would be lots of things the shop wouldn't be able to even attempt to make.

The spares would be carried by tenders outfitted for such a purpose, thus warships could use that volume for fighting stuff.

Ships designed to operate without support, such as scouts, would be relatively primitive in tech..just enough to do the job*. And they very well would be SOL...which might account for the bad survival during CG.

* imtu, as reflecting my real world experiences...
lower tech = harder to use, but easier to repair
higher tech = easier to use, but harder to repair

 

[HG_B]

I really think it needs to be narrowed down to "card level" or "mechanical" or something

Correct. I wasn't clear enough. I don't mean reactor containment vessels and the like. Cards, small mechanical parts, electrical repairs and mechanical repairs.
Basically, short of major system destruction, getting the ship limping along after a fight.

 

[Selandia]

I read it just fine the first time..

The spares would be carried by tenders outfitted for such a purpose, thus warships could use that volume for fighting stuff.

Ships designed to operate without support, such as scouts, would be relatively primitive in tech..just enough to do the job*. .

* imtu, as reflecting my real world experiences...
lower tech = harder to use, but easier to repair
higher tech = easier to use, but harder to repair

Quite true by common sense and quite true by the good luck of OTU's evolution. The S scout is using a commercial Book 2 Type A set of drive and power plant, the same engine as the standard 200t Yatch and Free Trader. It is likely to be repairable in any repair yard of the Empire. Same logic apply to computer and software, weaponry... The S scout is the "Jump Jeep" of the Imperium, unless you prefer to see it as the equivalent of the hundreds of armed trawlers sold commercially at the end of WWI that were drafted back for WWII ( the part of OTU about surplus scout ships been made available to retired scout, but subject to recall).

Use of "commercial drive" ( my nickname for Book 2 drive) for C and P class "cruiser" create the same effect and may be seen as akind to the use of "cylindrical" boilers (rather than "water tube" boiler) and triple expansion steam reciprocating machinery (rather than turbine) in many of RN (and dominions' navies) WWII escort vessel. Maintenance and reparis could be made in any comercial yard. On the other hand, major capital ship, such as the Tirpitz could have major repair in Germany or in St-Nazaire only.

Selandia

 

[BlackBat242]

I'm not talking repair. Only operation. But since you brought it up, they would do what any ship would if it didn't have a spare. Make one in the ships shop.

Which contains the equipment to fabricate specialized sealed-micro-circuit devices (think ultra refined computer chips... hundreds or thousands of times more complex than similarly-designed "real-world" devices that currently take specialized room-sized fabrication equipment to manufacture)?

 

[far-trader]

Which contains the equipment to fabricate specialized sealed-micro-circuit devices...

I'd say it'd depend on the TL of the fabber shop/ship.

We're already seeing decent almost-desktop parts printing in various materials from autocad schematics. Given not too many more TLs and I think you might start to see stuff rivaling StarTrek's replicators, though in a more mundane fashion and not as quick.

By TL15 certainly. Probably sooner. I'd likely have it starting at TL9 myself, and capable of recreating just about any part of the ship built at the same TL given the proper materials and instructions. With a shot at doing higher TL fabbing given the right materials and instructions if not a validly complex item.

The early models would be large, and slow. Not suitable for small (non-capital) ships or emergency repairs. So lower TL ships, and smaller ships, would have basic emergency repair stores, not shops. At the lower TLs the shops would be part of the support element of fleets.

They would get smaller (though materials will always take the same volume) and faster as TL progresses. Eventually you'd see them on even small ships (as a closet or possibly even portable fabber) and they'd be able to produce some parts quite quickly, replacing the basic emergency repair stores.

 

[HG_B]

Which contains the equipment to fabricate specialized sealed-micro-circuit devices (think ultra refined computer chips... hundreds or thousands of times more complex than similarly-designed "real-world" devices that currently take specialized room-sized fabrication equipment to manufacture)?

At high enough TL and depending on the size of the ship, yes.

 

[Enoki]

I suspect that imperial ships, at least, would be a lot more standardised and easy to operate than today's virtually-one-of-a-kind warships.

I go the other way on that. The Imperium is a vast area and not readily accessable across its breadth. So, most ships would have to be built and used fairly locally. It could take years or more to move a ship several sectors. That doesn't seem very useful.

So, there would likely be alot of variation in the details from area to area depending on what's available locally. The basic design would allow for such variations in detail but, not every part would be interchangable either.

As for making spares and replacements: The Traveller equivalent of CAD / CAM I'm sure would be available. What would limit you is the capacity of the equipment available. The needed part could simply be too big (or too small) to make. For instance, you have some equipment that can churn out most basic IC chips. It can make things to the picometer range but you need a chip that is in the nanometer range.... problem... You might be able to do the "Doc Brown" fix like in Back to the Future III but that could be inconvienent or impossible to fit in the space allowed.
At the other end of the scale you need some huge piece of metal component that won't fit in the machine and has to be one piece. Maybe there are some temporary alternatives but you'd have to redesign the part some too.

In the end, it really comes down to how much damage there is. Lots will probably make it impossible to fix. Some or little is probably doable. There is always towing or bringing out a repair ship etc. to work on it on site.....

 

[Selandia]

The problem to me is not in the manufacturing capability of bases or depot ship fitted with CAD/CAM and NC manufacturing center. If you are a rebel force or using ships provided by an allieds, you have the CAM data for the NCMC that you got from the same sources. The problem I see is taking over a Zodhani ship and reverse engineering its electronic components.

Specifically, a key problem is the unseeable. In 1973, when studying steam engine as an engineering merchant cadet, I could diagnose about anything because I could see everything and follow every pipe, line, conduit, rod and wire and check every input and output on sight or at worst with a potentiometer or pressure gage. Nowaday, the chip changed everything. Unless you are R2D2 and plug yourself in the system, you must plug a diagnostic tool or run diagnostic programs to figure many things out. The cybernetic age is making things differents.

I suspect it is much easier to replace many systems that need to be repaired rather than repair them (and figuring how to do so to start with)

Selasndia

 

[HG_B]

So, most ships would have to be built and used fairly locally. It could take years or more to move a ship several sectors. That doesn't seem very useful.

So, there would likely be alot of variation in the details from area to area depending on what's available locally.

Why move entire ships several sectors? Specs go out from from design bureau to Sector Navies to use in ship building. Done.

 

[Enoki]

Why move entire ships several sectors? Specs go out from from design bureau to Sector Navies to use in ship building. Done.

Have you ever seen the drawings for various minor components of a naval vessel let alone the larger parts? Standardization is anything but standard. Ships are largely semi-custom built and become moreso as they age.
What I'm getting at is that local yards will build something that is sort of standard in terms of its operational characteristics but will have alot of variation in various details. Its those details that matter when you go to fix stuff.
Been there done that....alot.

 

[HG_B]

Have you ever seen the drawings for various minor components of a naval vessel let alone the larger parts?

Yes, certain parts but I'm not at liberty to talk about it. And, the major systems for the same class are documented and standard. The stuff you're talking about doesn't impact usage to ANY large degree. A Chief from a ship of one class can EASILY go to another ship of same class and operate and damage control/repair isn't so different as to be an issue. So, AGAIN I ask, what are you talking about vis-a-vis moving ships from one sector to another. You didn't answer the question.

 

[McPerth]

Have you ever seen the drawings for various minor components of a naval vessel let alone the larger parts? Standardization is anything but standard. Ships are largely semi-custom built and become moreso as they age.
What I'm getting at is that local yards will build something that is sort of standard in terms of its operational characteristics but will have alot of variation in various details. Its those details that matter when you go to fix stuff.
Been there done that....alot.

Most of what is saying about standarization here seems to ignore the concept of IDP (Imperial Design Product), quite talked about in MT supplements. They are plans to be used in the imperium as a whole, just to standarize hardware and making them usable. In many occasions you must support a sector with other sector fleets, and, if not using IDPs, the support needed by that 'foreign' fleet whould more than offset the reinforcement given by it.

As an example, a few years ago Portugal and Greece had true problems with forest fires. They recived support from many countries from the UE in form of fire fighting airplanes, but most of them had to return to their bases in their countries for maintenance, as they were not the same airplane type than those used by the affected contries, and so, no spares nor mechanics for them were in place. Even travel time being just hours, not weeks or months as in Traveller, this disrupted the true worth those planes could have had.

I don't belive the imperium will let similar problems to arise, and that is just (to my understanding) the pourpose of IDPs.

 

[McPerth]

Why move entire ships several sectors? Specs go out from from design bureau to Sector Navies to use in ship building. Done.

I foresee several reasons for that:

- To reinforce threatened areas when the whole power of the navy must be put in use (major wars). Like the Roman Imperium or the reforger strategy for NATO through at diferent scales in time and space), I see the frontier forces of the Imperium (both Imperial and Provincial) just as holding and delaying forces, while the true might of the Imperium will only be in force after reinforcements (most of them from other sectors) arrive. As an example, in FFW, the corridor fleet (two sectors away) took an important role. Even a division from the Imperial Guard was sent to the front from Capital (4 sectors away). Similarly, in the solomani war there were ships taken from all the empire. And don't forget Lucan's orders to send fleets from many sectors, the final nail on the Imperium's coffin to shatter it.

- To keep unity on designs. If ships from a sector use to remain there, there will be a loss of cohesion in technology and standarization, that can be at least partially avoided if ships serve on sectors other than the one they were built (see my previous entry about standarization, just abrove).

- To keep a sense of unity. This is an important political matter, as troops and crews too used to serve always their native sectors may tend to be sector loyal, rather than Imperial loyal. That happened too in the Roman Empire, as legions that were for generations serving on the same province used to see themselves more as part of that province forces than forces of the empire as a whole, and so they in instances served ther provincial interests more than Imperial's.

 

[HG_B]

I foresee several reasons for that:

You're answering a different question. I'm talking tech design, not politics.

 

[McPerth]

You're answering a different question. I'm talking tech design, not politics.

Well, your question was why move entire ships several sectors, and I think I gave you valid reasons, even if pointing motivations you had not expected. Reasons needn't be only about tech design (through the second reason I gave point that way).

Never forget that Navy is a political tool, so, be sure of it, politics influence its design, strategy and doctrine.

 

[Vladika]

Where does it say that the ships stop shooting? Do the rules define what it means by a disabled ship anywhere?

I don't see this as a contradiction. If the captain of a disabled ship feels he has a shot at escaping, he may choose not to surrender. In that case the opponent can keep shooting until he gets enough crew hits to reduce the crew to 0, or he can board. But if the captain of a disabled ship wants to be not shot at, he surrenders. And if he does, his crew doesn't keep fighting. If they did, what's to prevent the enemy from keeping on shooting?


Hans

BOARDING
Disabled enemy ships may be captured by boarding. In order for boarding to take place, two conditions must be satisfied.
First, the ship to be boarded must be disabled; it must be incapable of maneuvering, all of its offensive weapons must be disabled, and it must not have a working black globe generator.
Second, it must be separated from protecting friendly ships; this is assumed to occur if, at any point after the ship is disabled, the owning player has the initiative and changes range from short to long (retreating, in effect).
At any time thereafter, the ship may be boarded. HG p43

Probably way late for an answer but it's habit

 

[Supplement Four]

And, I would say that taking over a crippled ship is as easy or as hard as the Ref needs it to be for his game.

If the Ref is running a Flash Gordon or Star Wars like space opera, maybe it's pretty easy. Maybe it's a code, and there's a way to bypass the input.

OTOH, if the Ref is running a hard core Traveller game, then I'd think it almost impossible to take over and pilot a crippled ship.

The crew on board probably has a scuttle command that destroys all major components. Parts, like the J-Drive, can be salvaged for parts because some of its insides are slag.

Beyond the scuttle command, there's tons of computer systems. It's not all one, big happy computer, but probably a few hundred (or more) independent CPUs, all interlinked, but all with firewalls, too.



Some of you Navy guys....what would it take to take over an aircraft carrier? Is it even possible?