Using D20 Modern for T20: The Skills

[BrennanHawkwood]

I can certainly understand the concern of limited skill points vs. number of available skills, but if RL is any indication, the more technical the skills, the more specialized people get and the less likely it is to encounter someone who can do everything.

Looking in the T20 Traveller's Handbook, one of things I find interesting is that it states (pg. 90):

"A Technical skill is specifically focused on installing, maintaining, repairing and/or creating items of technology such as electronic equipment, vehicles, grav modules, jump drives, etc."

It then goes on to add a number of detailed Technical skills that are actually described as "not used to 'create' anything". I think part of the problem is that, in a sense you are mixing apples and oranges. You've got craft, which is used to make things, you've got Technical witch is used to make technological things and, oh, you've also got Technical which is how to use certain things.

I would suggest splitting that up better. I can see two possible ways of doing this that wouldn't change things too drastically.
</font>

• Make Technical the engineering side of things (installation, maintenance, repair, creation) and then put operation into subskills of Profession or as seperate skills. -or-</font>
• Move the engineering aspects into craft and keep the usage side of things in Technical.</font>

Once you decide that division of things you'll have a much better basis to split up or combine those skills.

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by loconius:
i just don't like the idea of technical(sensors)... that is an entire skill used to do one thing!! you should some up technical (sensors) and acouple other one use skills under technical(electronics)

Assuming no super intellegent computers that do all your work for you, (and dependant on how hard science your game is) it is one skill that carried to its fullest allows a character to perform very a complicated and technical task. Remember T/Sensors includes running active and passive scans, it is going to include the ability to interpret the results in what may be very complex environments. It includes electronic warfare aspects such as jamming, counter-jamming. I have no problem with the idea of Sensor Operation being its own skill (whatever it ends up being called).

I also think that survey probably belongs in Profession because it incorporates a whole lot more than just operating a handfull of sensors and could conceivably be used without ever touching a sensor as long as someone else can hand you the data you need to analyze.

I've got no major issue with T/Gravitics being added to T/Engineering, though it does mean that any high tech garage 'mechanic' that can maintain or repair an Air/Raft can also maintain or repair jump drives and fusion plants.

Prospecting could go in survey because there are definately similarities, though I admit I'd be tempted to keep them seperate because the focus is different.

I'd be tempted to incorporate the more advanced parts of communication into sensors simply so all aspects of EW are in one place and because there are real similarities. Then not worry about having a skill for the basic use of a radio.

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

I notice that you added Astrogation to Navigation. Does that mean your on the ball 14 year old boy scout can plot jump calculations and figure out how to get a starship from one planet to another.

I'd say leave navigation as terrestrial navigation (which IIRC is what it effectively is in d20 modern) and add Profession/Astrogation or something like that.

 

[tjoneslo]

Let me answer a few of your concerns:

I notice that you added Astrogation to Navigation.

Navigation includes starship navigation because D20 Future says it does.

I also think that survey probably belongs in Profession...

I'm very reluctant to update profession any more than it already is. D20 Modern has only a "Profession" skill, no cascade. It's only game purpose is to allow the character to increase wealth every time a level is gained. I created the cascade skill out of it because I needed some place to put the Admin and Law (or Lawyer) skills.

... with T/Gravitics being added to T/Engineering,...

Yes, the air/raft mechanic can fix the fusion plant or jump drive. See below.

A Technical skill is specifically focused

I don't like the idea of separating the craft (Craft), use (Computer Use), and fix (Repair) skils for the reasons above. It's my preference that if you are going to get a device (say a sensor) to operate beyond the default level of operation (you have skill ranks with it), this must include some level the theory and practice of operation of the device. Given the scary difference between a 1st level character and 20th level character operating the same device, I can't see how this works without either "magic" or a really deep education on device operation. Including how to build one with bailing wire and chewing gum.

I think what I'm going to do is create a second level of cascade for some of these skills. This is optional specialization. You can get a higher skill ranks with a specialized skill, and it's cheaper, but it's narrower. So you can specialize any of the technical skills into the "Use", "Create", or, "Repair" specializations. T/Engineering can be split into Power plant, jump drive, maneuver drive, and grav drive system. You can only specialize into a class skill. You can take the max skill ranks of a specialization skill to level +5. The specialized skill cost's a half point to go up one rank.

 

[Kirth]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
I don't like the idea of separating the craft (Craft), use (Computer Use), and fix (Repair) skils for the reasons above. It's my preference that if you are going to get a device (say a sensor) to operate beyond the default level of operation (you have skill ranks with it), this must include some level the theory and practice of operation of the device. Given the scary difference between a 1st level character and 20th level character operating the same device, I can't see how this works without either "magic" or a really deep education on device operation. Including how to build one with bailing wire and chewing gum.

I think what I'm going to do is create a second level of cascade for some of these skills. This is optional specialization. You can get a higher skill ranks with a specialized skill, and it's cheaper, but it's narrower. So you can specialize any of the technical skills into the "Use", "Create", or, "Repair" specializations. T/Engineering can be split into Power plant, jump drive, maneuver drive, and grav drive system. You can only specialize into a class skill. You can take the max skill ranks of a specialization skill to level +5. The specialized skill cost's a half point to go up one rank.

I agree with you. If the craft, use, and fix skills are made distinct, then the system would be unbalanced. Someone who can craft something would have to buy extra skills to use and repair what they've built. If being able to build or repair something gives you automatic use, then the use type of skill becomes redundant.

I also like the specialization tracks. The T20 book leaves T/Engineering open for the GM to decide how to handle the specific type. However, actually having some built in specialization gives some meat to them and gives the GM a guidline for creating other types of specializations.

Good Stuff.

 

[BrennanHawkwood]

Originally posted by Kirth:
I agree with you. If the craft, use, and fix skills are made distinct, then the system would be unbalanced. Someone who can craft something would have to buy extra skills to use and repair what they've built. If being able to build or repair something gives you automatic use, then the use type of skill becomes redundant.

I also like the specialization tracks. The T20 book leaves T/Engineering open for the GM to decide how to handle the specific type. However, actually having some built in specialization gives some meat to them and gives the GM a guidline for creating other types of specializations.

Good Stuff.

You both have some good points.

One thing to point out, I was suggesting two sets of skills, not three. I would have fix/create as one and use as the other. And yes, characters who want to be able to use and engineer (create/repair) would need to pick up two skills.

A incomplete example of the skills set up this way could be something like this: (In this example I am using an Enginering Cascade to group the craft/repair skills and the Technical Cascade for the operational skills)

Engineering/Mechanical
E/Electronics
E/Gravitics
E/Structural
E/Power Systems *
E/Drive Systems *
E/Environmental Systems *

T/Sensors
T/Survey
T/Astrogation
T/Prospecting
T/Computers

(* = These could easily be recombined into E/Starship Engineering, I just like splitting it because it covers so much already)

Characters who want to be able to repair or create technical equipment would probably take both types of skills. This allows for more granularity between characters. It allows for characters who are really good at building and repairing equipment who are not geniuses at using that equipment and characters that really know how to do something without knowing the details of how the box in front of them does it.

 

[tjoneslo]

I understand where you are coming from. Probably the simpliest way to do this is to reinstate the Craft skill and extend it to include the repair functionality and the new pieces. Then have the Technical cascade skill as you suggest above, as the use technological item skill.

There are some reasons why I don't like this idea, but can't explain beyond "I don't like it". Let me think about it, it may be just I like what i've done so far and don't want to change it.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

For me, its:

Craft : Art Stuff (Painting, Sculpture, in that sense, Practical Arts? Fine Arts?)

Perform: (Dancing, Singing, playing instruments, Performing Arts)

Technical : Hands on Experience with Technical Systems. This includes "Repair" and "Use*" and "Fix", which I have totally dumped.

Knowledge : Historical and Academic precedent of Technical Systems. Without this, making Master Crafted Items or inventing is impossible, or near impossible without help. Bear in mind some classes and feats allow for crafting master items on thier own.

Example: Bob the Repairman's fridge broke. He uses his T/Mechanical to fix it. It works, but he wants to build a new one from scratch (for some reason) and uses his K/Mechanical to reasearch the manufacturing process. After getting the Materials, and taking the Time to build it, his K/Mechanical works with his T/Mechanical at +2 (Synergy Bonus) and he makes himself a +2 Master Crafted Refrigerator (if he's lucky) or at least one better than the crappy one he had to fix.

*as in "Use Alien Devices"

Navigation is its own skill, as is Astrogation, IMTU.

Does that make sense?

 

[loconius]

it was mentioned that navigation allows boyscouts to make jump tapes. now a GM shouldn't ever allow this kind of roleplaying, and the same can be said with various skills within t20 [gunnery allows you to aim a turret, and lead ship manuevers to direct a spinal cannon]. you have to decide just how many skills you want players to be able to select from given the ocupations you want with in the game. too many skills, and the idea of a han solo smuggler that can operate every part of his ship becomes impossible [not enough skill points per level], and too few skills and boyscouts WILL be employed by the navy since they CAN do everything

the style of traveller also comes across as being a game that tops out at about level 5, maybe 10 if your thinking about a covert ops style of game. i could never justify running my d20 modern traveller games above that level though, its just rediculous! i'm running the kukulcan military coup event in the confederation, and i'm having a hel of a time from keeping the 'improving' players from running the whole damn revoltution by themselves

some food for thought

C Love

 

[Qstor2]

*delurking*

For Gunnery (Wis) (T20)

I don't own D20 Future but in SW d20 there's a feat Starship Operations without the -4 pentaly, there should be a feat for Heavy Weapons that would cover that????

thanks for your work!

Mike

 

[tjoneslo]

Gunnery is one of those in between skills. In D20 (Future), the BAB is a use all weapons skill. The feats are to remove (minor) penalties to this skill for exotic or unusual weapons.

T20 has declared that heavy weapons, and starship weapons are different enough from hand weapons that you can't use the normal all weapons skill, it needs its own.

Taking this a step further, which has been suggested more than once, is to remove BAB altogether. It gets replaced by a set of use weapon (type) skills.

Depending upon how you view the difference between a knife and a spinal mount weapon, and how you want that expressed in your game system, you get a different set of rules.

Personally I fall into the heavy weapons need their own skill camp. But I'm not yet at the point of dumping BAB entierly