Using GunMaker with LBB1

[robject]

Guns built using Traveller5's GunMaker are back-portable to Classic Traveller. Use the "v1" hits as damage (instead of the hits which are broken down into effects), of course.

However, there's also a way to conform guns built via GunMaker to "Book 1" weapons -- that is, a way to calculate Dexterity bonus/penalty levels. The reason is because GunMaker calculates a related value, measured as an offset, called Burden. Here's how to use it.

Required Dexterity Level = 7 + Burden. DM is based on the weapon type per LBB1 p45, or defaults to -2.

Advantageous Dexterity Level = 10 + Burden (11 + Burden for energy weapons). Again, DM is based on the weapon type, or defaults to +1 (+2 for automatic and energy weapons).

NOTE This is suited for weapons which don't already have these stats listed!

Example Advanced Heavy Gauss Rifle. Req. Dexterity = 8 (DM-2). Adv. Dexterity = 11 (DM+2).

Code  : AHGR-15
Name  : Adv Heavy Gauss Rifle-15
Range : 6
Mass  : 3.74
Burden: 1
Damage: (8D) Bullet-8 
MgT   : 4D + 2
Cost  : 4,000

Example Remote Dart Rifle. Req. Dex = 7 (DM-2). Adv. Dex = 10 (DM+1).

(This sort of damage ranges from tranq to poison, rather than typical penetrative damage or burn damage etc.)

Code  : RDR-7
Name  : Remote Dart Rifle-7
Range : 4
Mass  : 2.4
Burden: 0
Damage: (5D) Bullet-2 Tranq-3 
MgT   : 3D + 2
Cost  : 3,100

Example Light Sonic Launcher. Req. Dex = 5 (DM-2). Adv. Dex = 8 (DM+1).

(This is more like stun damage, rather than killing damage).

Code  : StLtSL-10
Name  : Std Lt Sonic Launcher-10
Range : 1
Mass  : 4.19
Burden: -2
Damage: (7D) Sound-4 Bang-3 
MgT   : 4D + 1
Cost  : 1,200

 

[atpollard]

Pretty cool ... a big thumbs up.

 

[robject]

Pretty cool ... a big thumbs up.

It was an "aha!" moment when I realized that Burden is similar enough to a usage penalty that it would work with LBB1. This is also the first gun creation system I have seen that is so simply compatible in this way.

At one point I had thought there must also be an element of GunMaker that tells me what the actual penalty and bonus is, but in reality I don't think it's there.

 

[Timerover51]

Have you tried working backward from an existing weapon as a test of the design sequence or not?

 

[robject]

NOTE: Edited based on corrected range comparisons...

Have you tried working backward from an existing weapon as a test of the design sequence or not?

I've done it. The results are "close", but then what does "close" mean? They're not identical. How far off do they have to be before they're "wrong"? And how many "wrongnesses" can I tolerate, and to what degree for each wrongness?

It's painful because LBB1 weapons were created ad hoc, either from specific existing guns or fantastic extrapolation.

...And some designs are more off than others.

...And for each LBB1 weapon, I can come up with several alternatives that are close in one way or another, by allowing a different parameter to range.

The main problem is that the answers are subjective. I would prefer a design system to re-create the LBB1 weapons exactly. I suppose that is an unrealistic expectation.

Example. Laser Rifle-9. 10kg. Cr 5000. Req Dex 7 (-3), Adv Dex 11 (+2). Max range = VLong. 5D damage.

My goal is therefore a Laser Rifle at TL9, 10kg, Cr5000, R=4, 5D damage, and a Burden of 0.

I can get close. For example:

Code  : ELR-9
Name  : Early Laser Rifle-9
Range : 4
Mass  : 8.16
Burden: 1
Damage: (6D) Burn-4 Pen-2 
MgT   : 4D
Cost  : 3,600

TL is right. Burden is off by +1. Damage is +1D. Range is correct. Mass is close enough. It's cheaper.

This is close.

If we assumed that CT Damage = (T5 Damage + MgT Damage)/2, then this is very close, except it's more of a Dexterity challenge to use.

So, let's see if there's a way to alter Burden.

Using the Master Mods tables 12 and 13 (p183, Common Brands), I can get a -1 on Burden from Ling-Standard Products.

Now let's see how we can adjust the price. Assuming LSP is a brand name with Strong demand, we can boost the price by 140% (p53, Supply and Demand Price Modifications).

So:

LSP ELR-9 Laser Rifle
Range: 4
Mass: 8.16 kg
Burden: 0
Damage: 5D  (T5/2 + MgT/2 method)
Cost: 5,040

Very close.

 

[Supplement Four]

Like it. I proposed a while back that a T5-like GunMaker could be created for use in CT, but I didn't put the time into looking at the numbers. You've done a good job.

Question: What are your thoughts on CT range and armor modifiers?

 

[robject]

Oh. You know, you made me realize that T5 ranges are shifted up one compared to CT ranges (with some assumed range extensions for CT added in for fun):

R     CT          T5        Notes
-     ----------- --------  --------
0     Close       Contact   
1     Short       Vshort    
2     Medium      Short     
3     Long        Medium    
4     Vlong       Long     
5     (Xlong)     Vlong     (~1000 m)
6     (Distant)   Distant   (~5000 m)
7     (Vdistant)  Vdistant  (~50 km)
8     (Orbit)     Orbit     (~500 km)
9     (Far Orbit) Far Orbit (~5000 km)

So in other words, "Long" range in CT is R=3. That means there's actually a better chance of making weapons that fit CT. I'll have to mull that over... I've been equating them 1:1. I've been wrong before, and I was wrong again.

(Although if equating ranges means I get guns that are more CT-correct, then I'll equate them and ignore the game-mechanical differences in meaning).

 

[robject]

Target-armor DMs appear to be somewhat related to TL, with a base modifier, uh, based on the general class of weapon (slug thrower vs energy weapon, for example). Or the other 'way 'round.

Range DMs look to have a large random element, but I'm sure there's some sort of rationale that can be approximated. For example, weapon length is probably a factor, which can be approximated by the weapon's particular class (handgun, longarm, energy weapon...).

 

[robject]

I see that the GRAVITATIONAL EFFECTS table in LBB1 assumes worlds with Density 1. I don't remember ever seeing that table before.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm interested in seeing what you come up with for the various modifiers--that's going to be the hard part.

But, the CT weapons in Book 1 and Book 4 can be used for generics.

Interesting project. I've wanted to do something like this for years--long before I saw GunMaker in T5. It just requires a lot of time, and I never found the time to put that much effort into it.

It would be awesome, though, to have a GunMaker-like system for use with CT that would allow all sorts of weapons to be created, with the output providing all CT modifiers.

Weapons in Book 1 and Book 4 I consider "average joe" weapons. They are typical examples: the typical shotgun, the typical SMG, the typical gauss rifle, etc.

It would be interesting to see variations.

In my past CT games, I would tinker with the weapon modifiers by eyeball and come up with specific weapons that were altered a bit from the norm shown in the books. One manufacturer on a world was known for the increased range of its weapons, another was known for bigger magazines, etc.

 

[Supplement Four]

I see that the GRAVITATIONAL EFFECTS table in LBB1 assumes worlds with Density 1. I don't remember ever seeing that table before.

Yep. You can adjust load using that table (but not hit points). Allows you to figure how much a character can carry when not on on a Size 8 world.

I think CT also has some stats for adjusting weapons for atmosphere. Maybe in the special supplement. It's been a long time, and I may be confusing this with T4.

 

[robject]

I've edited my Laser Rifle demo to take (1) range corrections into account, and attempts to bring (2) damage, (3) Burden, and (4) price into alignment.

My conclusion: The Book 1 Laser Rifle is not just a generic laser rifle, but rather, a Ling Standard Products weapon which has a strong market demand.

LSP ELR-9 Laser Rifle
Range: 4
Mass: 8.16 kg
Burden: 0
Damage: 5D  (T5/2 + MgT/2 method)
Cost: 5,040

Mass is still 20% off. Perhaps this represents a larger-than-typical battery.

 

[Timerover51]

I figure if someone really wants to develop a non-standard weapon, I will hit them with a 100,000 to One Million credit development fee, and tell them come back in 6 months. As I am not a believer in personal energy weapons, they also need to pay for special ammunition if non-standard. Based on current prices, that should run about 10 Credits a round.

 

[Supplement Four]

I figure if someone really wants to develop a non-standard weapon, I will hit them with a 100,000 to One Million credit development fee, and tell them come back in 6 months. As I am not a believer in personal energy weapons, they also need to pay for special ammunition if non-standard. Based on current prices, that should run about 10 Credits a round.

I'm talking about different manufacturers on different worlds making weapons that aren't exactly alike. The M-16 is not exactly like the AK-47. They're close, but not exact. The M-16 is not exactly like the AR-15, but they're very close.

 

[tbeard1999]

Have you tried working backward from an existing weapon as a test of the design sequence or not?

Some time back, I used this approach to create new weapons, based off existing ones for CT.

A sample weapon would be the Ruger-Wesson Mini-30 TL12 Carbine. It has the following mods:

Base Carbine cost/wt -- cr200 3000g (3125g with 10 round magazine).
Made of advanced TL12 materials -- weight -20% (-600g)
Bullpup -- +cr50, -300mm length.
Standard mounting rails -- +cr50, +200g
Fires caseless (-30% weight per round), TL12 (-20% weight per round) ammo. It weighs 62.5g per 10 rounds. The weapon carries a 40 round magazine, which weighs 260g, or a 60 round magazine which weighs 390g

Weapon costs cr300, weighs 2600g empty, 2860g with 40 round magazine, 2990g with 60 round magazine. Length is 450mm. In combat, uses Carbine range and armor mods.

A highly accurate version costs 500cr and is +1 at medium and long ranges.

A variant that fires high powered caseless TL12 ammo costs cr600 (+50% base cost or cr100) and weighs 3200g empty (+20% weight, or +600g). It usually uses 20 round magazines (125g). Damage is +1 damage die. (High powered ammo is actually +1 per damage die, but I allow this to be converted to an extra die if using a 3D damage weapon). Due to its weight and anemic armor penetration, it isn't a popular weapon.

A cut-rate knockoff costs cr150 (cheap (-50% cost), inaccurate (-25% cost) bullpup (+cr50), mounting rails (+cr50). It's -1 to hit at medium and long range and will jam on a natural "2".

Select fire can be added to these weapons for an additional cr50.

References:

Enhancing CT Weapons -- http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=19453

Additional CT weapon enhancements -- http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=427391&postcount=11

Even more -- http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=427455&postcount=19

 

[Supplement Four]

Rob--

I wanted to make sure that you saw THIS THREAD. It might help with your assumptions.

 

[Timerover51]

Some time back, I used this approach to create new weapons, based off existing ones for CT.

A sample weapon would be the Ruger-Wesson Mini-30 TL12 Carbine. It has the following mods:

Base Carbine cost/wt -- cr200 3000g (3125g with 10 round magazine).
Made of advanced TL12 materials -- weight -20% (-600g)
Bullpup -- +cr50, -300mm length.
Standard mounting rails -- +cr50, +200g
Fires caseless (-30% weight per round), TL12 (-20% weight per round) ammo. It weighs 62.5g per 10 rounds. The weapon carries a 40 round magazine, which weighs 260g, or a 60 round magazine which weighs 390g

Weapon costs cr300, weighs 2600g empty, 2860g with 40 round magazine, 2990g with 60 round magazine. Length is 450mm. In combat, uses Carbine range and armor mods.

A highly accurate version costs 500cr and is +1 at medium and long ranges.

A variant that fires high powered caseless TL12 ammo costs cr600 (+50% base cost or cr100) and weighs 3200g empty (+20% weight, or +600g). It usually uses 20 round magazines (125g). Damage is +1 damage die. (High powered ammo is actually +1 per damage die, but I allow this to be converted to an extra die if using a 3D damage weapon). Due to its weight and anemic armor penetration, it isn't a popular weapon.

A cut-rate knockoff costs cr150 (cheap (-50% cost), inaccurate (-25% cost) bullpup (+cr50), mounting rails (+cr50). It's -1 to hit at medium and long range and will jam on a natural "2".

Select fire can be added to these weapons for an additional cr50.

References:

Enhancing CT Weapons -- http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=19453

Additional CT weapon enhancements -- http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=427391&postcount=11

Even more -- http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=427455&postcount=19

My apologies for asking the question. I will refrain from so doing in the future.