Using Wafertech to Emulate FTL Communication

[Garnfellow]

Consider this: It's the final stage of the Solomani Rim War. Admiral Arielle Adair is directing a massive Imperial battle fleet advancing toward Terra. As needed, she creates mission-specific task forces that break off from the main force.

Each of these task forces carry wafers with the latest personality scans of the Admiral and her staff. Should the task force run into trouble, the commander is able to activate the wafers and discuss the situation at length with Admiral Adair.

While this has many shortcomings over true FTL communication, it also has many advantages over just giving the commander extremely broad orders and hoping that he or she will make the right decisions. The commander doesn't need to guess what Adair wants the task force to do -- she just tells them.

 

[mike wightman]

There is an interesting chapter in AotI where Bland is activated after the wafer warlord is defeated.

I think what you are suggesting has a lot of merit, but the individual task forces are still limited to the decisions and tactics used on the spot.

The post wafer-tech OTU sure isn't Kansas anymore Toto...

 

[Barrel]

Doesn't the "scan" of the subject's brain to create the wafer destroy said brain?

Now, if Admiral Ackbar, oops, Adair, had been dying of a fatal disease and was scanned into wafer form (and killed) just before the fleet leaves base, then numerous copies of that wafer could be distributed to each task force. In fact, in the novel doesn't the Agent do something similar?

 

[mike wightman]

The low TL version does in the book, there is nothing in T5 that says the brain has to be destroyed. Considering the TL of the Imperium at the time of Bland's wafer download is TL12/13 and it may be an experimental technique then this is understandable.

I would hazard a guess that by TL13/14 non-destructive brain scans are possible - it says in the T5 rules that a ship autodoc can make the brainscan...

it also mentions examples of people having back-up personality recordings to relict them once they shuffle off the mortal coil

For example, Duke Adawulf of Efate knew he was living
a dangerous life when hostilities started in the Spinward
Marches; he quite responsibly bought life insurance. In the
last days of the enemy assault, Adawulf held off the enemy
at the portico of his estate as his staff made their escape.
After several hours, he was killed when Zhodani artillery levelled
the palace. His loyal butler gathered up a few scraps
of the Duke, and after the war ended, notified the insurance
company. About a year later, the Duke made his appeance at
a party in his honor, but with no memories of the past three
years.

Hmm, what if Seldrian isn't just a sex-changed clone of Norris but is his downloaded memories and personality too?

 

[Garnfellow]

The post wafer-tech OTU sure isn't Kansas anymore Toto...

No doubt.

Just imagine an indecisive, CYA commander. Faced with a tough decision, he calls up the wafer admiral, who directs him to do X. Except X is the wrong call. Who is to blame? Does a wafer admiral outrank a captain? (Certainly Agent Bland outranked anyone he encountered.) Surely the Navy does not want a generation of lily-livered captains afraid to act without consulting with wafer daddy.

Or imagine this: "Captain, sensors indicate the flagship has been destroyed." "Commander, active the reserve admiral. Signal the rest of the fleet that the admiral's flag has been transferred to us."

Or imagine pulling an emergency wafer general or admiral out to deal with a crisis. Only that admiral made her name fighting TL 11 battles. And you are facing TL 13 opponents with meson spinals. Her tactical mind is still just as sharp as it ever was, but her experience is completely useless in this context.

Or your general was a veteran of the Pacification Campaigns, when the Imperium held life in less regard than today's more "enlightened" culture. The general is of a "nuke 'em till they cry uncle, and then nuke 'em some more" school that, while still sound military doctrine, is very much out of political fashion.

 

[McPerth]

Hmm, what if Seldrian isn't just a sex-changed clone of Norris but is his downloaded memories and personality too?

Depending on what private life had Norris had, the male memories on a female body could produce some mental distress and maybe some problems better to discuss in the pit (if at all)...

See that, if it is possible, download the memories of a human on an alien, as could be a vargr, being the closer biochemistry to humans (or vice-versa, for what's worth) could also cause the same confusion and problems.

 

[RandyB]

Or imagine pulling an emergency wafer general or admiral out to deal with a crisis. Only that admiral made her name fighting TL 11 battles. And you are facing TL 13 opponents with meson spinals. Her tactical mind is still just as sharp as it ever was, but her experience is completely useless in this context.

Or your general was a veteran of the Pacification Campaigns, when the Imperium held life in less regard than today's more "enlightened" culture. The general is of a "nuke 'em till they cry uncle, and then nuke 'em some more" school that, while still sound military doctrine, is very much out of political fashion.

Such wafers would likely be "retired" on a planned basis.

 

[aramis]

We know from AOTI that Wafers (individually) retain their experiences from prior jackings, at least to a degree. They're going to learn.

 

[Barrel]

I would think this sort of thing...

"For example, Duke Adawulf of Efate knew he was living
a dangerous life when hostilities started in the Spinward
Marches; he quite responsibly bought life insurance. In the
last days of the enemy assault, Adawulf held off the enemy
at the portico of his estate as his staff made their escape.
After several hours, he was killed when Zhodani artillery levelled
the palace. His loyal butler gathered up a few scraps
of the Duke, and after the war ended, notified the insurance
company. About a year later, the Duke made his appeance at
a party in his honor, but with no memories of the past three
years."

...would be frowned upon by the good duke's heirs. Was the office of Duke of Efate vacant for those three years? Did the duke's son take the position during those three years but then is demoted once his father's clone/father makes a reappearance? Why use anagathics when you could just periodically make a new, younger clone of yourself and download your mind into it?

This is the SF version of the the situation in Tolkien's Middle-Earth, where Elrond has been ruling Rivendell for over three thousand years. His sons never inherit anything because their father doesn't die, they never move up to his position, they never get out of his shadow. It doesn't bother them because they have the psychology of Elves, not Men, but Traveller's humaniti are not Elves.

This is functional immortality and eternal youth. It doesn't really fit human psychology and any society that has it is going to be radically different than any society we have ever seen. IMO the ramifications of this make any society that has it far too different from our own to really be playable.

 

[Timerover51]

I would think this sort of thing...

"For example, Duke Adawulf of Efate knew he was living
a dangerous life when hostilities started in the Spinward
Marches; he quite responsibly bought life insurance. In the
last days of the enemy assault, Adawulf held off the enemy
at the portico of his estate as his staff made their escape.
After several hours, he was killed when Zhodani artillery levelled
the palace. His loyal butler gathered up a few scraps
of the Duke, and after the war ended, notified the insurance
company. About a year later, the Duke made his appeance at
a party in his honor, but with no memories of the past three
years."

...would be frowned upon by the good duke's heirs. Was the office of Duke of Efate vacant for those three years? Did the duke's son take the position during those three years but then is demoted once his father's clone/father makes a reappearance? Why use anagathics when you could just periodically make a new, younger clone of yourself and download your mind into it?

This is the SF version of the the situation in Tolkien's Middle-Earth, where Elrond has been ruling Rivendell for over three thousand years. His sons never inherit anything because their father doesn't die, they never move up to his position, they never get out of his shadow. It doesn't bother them because they have the psychology of Elves, not Men, but Traveller's humaniti are not Elves.

This is functional immortality and eternal youth. It doesn't really fit human psychology and any society that has it is going to be radically different than any society we have ever seen. IMO the ramifications of this make any society that has it far too different from our own to really be playable.

You have made some very good points here. The one regarding using anagathics verses simply cloning oneself raises a question that does require an answer.

 

[JFGarber]

This is functional immortality and eternal youth. It doesn't really fit human psychology and any society that has it is going to be radically different than any society we have ever seen. IMO the ramifications of this make any society that has it far too different from our own to really be playable.

I agree. I have not used any of that section of T5.09. I understand that in some ways the point of the game is to explore things different from our own reality, but it's easy to go so far that there aren't any relevant markers remaining. And with effective immortality, I forecast a highly divided society, a much darker place than I want to visit.

 

[whulorigan]

You have made some very good points here. The one regarding using anagathics verses simply cloning oneself raises a question that does require an answer.

I had these thoughts on the issue in another thread from a while back:

What if, for the sake of the discussion, we explore a derivative line of thought. Suppose we "relax" the cultural stipulation against Nobles using anagathics (I always thought that was an illogical rule as well), just for the sake of argument, and transfer that stigma to the use of relicts/clones (or at the very least argue that the relict/clone is not considered a legal inheritor of Imperial Title under Imperial High Law). Perhaps it is an "anathema" derived from some heretofore unspecified events during the latter days of the Rule of Man that the Vilani remember with loathing (since the Solomani were well advanced in the biological sciences as compared to the Vilani). Perhaps said events even contributed to the collapse of the RoM.

What if the use of anagathics is detrimental to the effective decantation of clones and relicts? Perhaps such clones/relicts are not "faithful" to the original in some way? Enough to invalidate them as a true successive copy (e.g. anagathics interferes with the replication of the genetics and/or neurological patterns; INT and EDU are altered/lessened; memory transfer is not faithful, etc) due to the consequences of the anagathics regimen?

Now said Noble must choose between:

1) Using anagathics (which in actual practice can only realistically extend life up to a certain degree, IIRC) and NOT being able to produce a relict/clone that is considered to be a continuation of himself (and in fact may have mental handicaps and/or physiological problems);

2) Forgoing anagathics in order to have a relict/clone available as Life Insurance, but without Imperial Rights of Inheritance.​

 

[mike wightman]

Depending on what private life had Norris had, the male memories on a female body could produce some mental distress and maybe some problems better to discuss in the pit (if at all)...

Norris had an intimate relationship with his male attaché/aid, that's a matter of canon.

 

[mike wightman]

...would be frowned upon by the good duke's heirs. Was the office of Duke of Efate vacant for those three years? Did the duke's son take the position during those three years but then is demoted once his father's clone/father makes a reappearance? Why use anagathics when you could just periodically make a new, younger clone of yourself and download your mind into it?

The clone isn't you. You die when your body and brain die. The clone just thinks it is you - your continuity of self awareness is over when you die.

What if someone makes a relict and you haven't died? Which version is really you under the law?

There's a lot of interesting discussion on these themes in the 'whither' death thread.

This is functional immortality and eternal youth. It doesn't really fit human psychology and any society that has it is going to be radically different than any society we have ever seen. IMO the ramifications of this make any society that has it far too different from our own to really be playable.

Mindjammer Traveller, the Culture, Altered Carbon... all playable.

The Third Imperium is not a liberal western democracy in the 57th century, it is a vast melting pot of racial (as in alien race) and cultural differences, and that is just in one subsector

 

[mike wightman]

I agree. I have not used any of that section of T5.09. I understand that in some ways the point of the game is to explore things different from our own reality, but it's easy to go so far that there aren't any relevant markers remaining. And with effective immortality, I forecast a highly divided society, a much darker place than I want to visit.

I recommend you re-read Adventure 1 - especially the rumours section. The Imperium started off as quite a dark setting, Agent of the Imperium in its way re-emphasises the differences between the original darker setting and the sanitized 'white hat' Imperium of late CT and especially the GTAU.

There is absolutely no need to use these themes in your games, it is meant to be a fun pass time after all, but quite often good sci-fi is to be found wherein the changes to the human condition as a result of technological and cultural shift. I always found the concepts behind the Cyberpunk genre very silly - but had great fun running games. As the cyberpunk gave way to dystopian transhumanism it started to make more sense to me.

 

[mike wightman]

Where did the idea that nobles shun anagathics come from anyway?

Back in A:1 we are told:

He insists that the liver of these little beasts is used in
the Emperor's own anagathic preparations.

 

[mike wightman]

The one regarding using anagathics verses simply cloning oneself raises a question that does require an answer.

Anagathics continues your existence.
Relicts/clones are not a continuation of your existence, the clone/relict just thinks it is you.
There would need to be pretty comprehensive laws governing the legal status of a relict/clone, inheritance rights etc.

 

[The Pakkrat]

Let us remember that Wafers using the genetic structure SDEIES cannot be used by those sophonts who are under the genetic structure of SDEIEC or others such as SDEIEK (Caste) and beyond.

Your human is going to get one hell of a migraine trying to slot a Vargr Wafer. I shudder to think of the M1900 Galaxiad Republic of Regina pulling Dame Qithka Cannagrrh's recorded personality out of the vaults on Vincennes and then mistakenly letting a human slot a Wafer of her, just so they can interview her about the M1100.

As to males slotting female personalities or vice versa, that's up to the Referee and may involve a Check SAN roll after the listed usage duration per Tech Level of the Wafer. Nothing a little endocrine rebalancing won't fix in the Medical Console and Clinic with the aid of the ship's Medic.

Remember also that there is a distinction between a Clone and a Relict Clone. Relict Clones are meant only to be iterated upon the confirmed death or long disappearance of the pattern donor.

From the Zirunkariish Healthcare & Insurance, Vincennes (Deneb 1122) cloning vats laboratory, this is the Pakkrat, who combed the Wafer Technology chapter and Life Insurance muster benefit in detail.

 

[Garnfellow]

Anagathics continues your existence.
Relicts/clones are not a continuation of your existence, the clone/relict just thinks it is you.
There would need to be pretty comprehensive laws governing the legal status of a relict/clone, inheritance rights etc.

This. Relict clones are far more valuable to everyone except the actual person being cloned, who is still dead. Employers get to retain valuable employees, spouses get to retain beloved spouses, superfans get to keep enjoying their favorite holovid star. But the pattern? Dead.

And while I suppose relicts work great at a very superficial level, the process cannot be perfect and I suspect at a very granular level, all kinds of issues emerge. (Black Mirror has a lot of ideas along these lines.)

You were married to Susan for 30 years before the air/raft accident. Now she's back, but in a 20 year old body. At first that seemed great, but as you look at your own graying, saggy, paunchy body . . . it seems weird. Physically, she's younger now than your daughter. She doesn't want to go for slow walks on the beach any more -- she wants to surf, run 5ks. She's listening to some Vegan music that just sounds like cats screaming. She's talking about going offworld, even though you just bought that small bungalow she picked out 5 years ago. She says she wants to go back to work, just are you are starting to wind down your practice. And her memories? She says remembers everything, right up until the insurance scan 5 years ago. Which means she doesn't know about your affair, doesn't know about all the fights, the counseling, the weary reconciliation. At first you thought this would be like starting over, another second chance. Except you still remember. Everything. And you're keeping the same secrets all over again.

 

[whulorigan]

Where did the idea that nobles shun anagathics come from anyway?

Back in A:1 we are told:
[FONT=arial,helvetica]

He insists that the liver of these little beasts is used in
the Emperor's own anagathic preparations.

[/FONT]

It is something that evolved in canon over time (the first place I remember seeing it was in MT or DGP, can't remember which). I always got the impression it was an concept looking for a valid excuse.

Anagathics continues your existence.
Relicts/clones are not a continuation of your existence, the clone/relict just thinks it is you.

There would need to be pretty comprehensive laws governing the legal status of a relict/clone, inheritance rights etc.

I agree completely. I had this same opinion/discussion in a thread a while back in the Audience Hall of the Moot. It may be a very attractive option for players from a metagame standpoint in order to resurrect their otherwise dead characters, but from a role-playing "in-game" standpoint, for an actual individual, when the person dies, they die, regardless of the existence of a relict that is fully convinced that it is you (and which may be considered, for all practical purposes, to be you by other people). But "you" have not been transferred to the clone/relict without invoking metaphysics or religion. (And we will not discuss those here ).