Vacc Suit Skill

[Supplement Four]

I'm looking at Vacc Suit skill in the TB, and I'm a little confused.

The skill description lists a 10+ throw to avoid dangerous situations and some DMs.

Then, I check out the Zero G rules in that same book, and I see the 10+ roll, plus DMs, to maintain control.

Then, I see the Zero G Combat skill in Book 4, with it's 10+ roll.

And, I see the Zero G rules in Beltstrike, with its consolodated Zero G rules, 10+ throw, and combined modifiers list.

-------------------

The combined modifiiers list in Beltstrike doesn't list Vacc Suit skill, but it does list Zero G Environment (from the game) and Zero G Combat from Book 4.

Zero G Environment and Zero G Combat skill received the same beneficial DM on the 10+ Zero G roll.

Why isn't Vacc Suit skill mentioned as a DM in any of these 10+ throws?

Isn't that what having Vacc Suit skill is all about? Zero G operations?

I was surprised to see that Beltstrike mentions Zero G Environment skill and Zero G Combat skill, but doesn't mention Vacc Suit skill?

Thoughts?

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm looking at Vacc Suit skill in the TB, and I'm a little confused.

The skill description lists a 10+ throw to avoid dangerous situations and some DMs.

Then, I check out the Zero G rules in that same book, and I see the 10+ roll, plus DMs, to maintain control.

Then, I see the Zero G Combat skill in Book 4, with it's 10+ roll.

And, I see the Zero G rules in Beltstrike, with its consolodated Zero G rules, 10+ throw, and combined modifiers list.

-------------------

The combined modifiiers list in Beltstrike doesn't list Vacc Suit skill, but it does list Zero G Environment (from the game) and Zero G Combat from Book 4.

Zero G Environment and Zero G Combat skill received the same beneficial DM on the 10+ Zero G roll.

Why isn't Vacc Suit skill mentioned as a DM in any of these 10+ throws?

Isn't that what having Vacc Suit skill is all about? Zero G operations?

I was surprised to see that Beltstrike mentions Zero G Environment skill and Zero G Combat skill, but doesn't mention Vacc Suit skill?

Thoughts?

 

[Maladominus]

Not always the same situation.

It is necessary to wear a vacc suit when you're in vaccuum or dangerous (tainted, corrosive, insidious) atmosphere. This does not always mean a zero-G situation. In fact, in a corrosive atmosphere world, it's perfectly acceptable for that planet to have Earth-normal gravity.

 

[Maladominus]

Not always the same situation.

It is necessary to wear a vacc suit when you're in vaccuum or dangerous (tainted, corrosive, insidious) atmosphere. This does not always mean a zero-G situation. In fact, in a corrosive atmosphere world, it's perfectly acceptable for that planet to have Earth-normal gravity.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
Not always the same situation.

It is necessary to wear a vacc suit when you're in vaccuum or dangerous (tainted, corrosive, insidious) atmosphere. This does not always mean a zero-G situation. In fact, in a corrosive atmosphere world, it's perfectly acceptable for that planet to have Earth-normal gravity.

So...

Your ship has come across a derelict floating among an asteroid field. You match vectors, don your Vacc Suit, and head out the airlock.

The tether is not long enough to reach to the other ship, and you don't have a propulsuion pack. You decide to live life on the wild side and shove off from your ship, attempting a free-fall jump to the hull of the other vessel.

You're GMing this situation.

The character attempting this free-fall jump has Vacc Suit-3.

Are you thinking that Vacc Suit should not even be considered in this scenario?

According to the Vacc Suit description in the TB, it should be considered.

According to the Zero-G rules in the TB, it shouldn't be considered.

And, according to the Zero-G rules in Beltstrike, the Zero-G Environment skill should be used (not Vacc Suit).

I'm of the opinion that Vacc Suit should be considered in a situation like this.

And, if it's considered in this situation, then it should probably be considered when you go into melee with an opponent in Zero-G.

You disagree?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
Not always the same situation.

It is necessary to wear a vacc suit when you're in vaccuum or dangerous (tainted, corrosive, insidious) atmosphere. This does not always mean a zero-G situation. In fact, in a corrosive atmosphere world, it's perfectly acceptable for that planet to have Earth-normal gravity.

So...

Your ship has come across a derelict floating among an asteroid field. You match vectors, don your Vacc Suit, and head out the airlock.

The tether is not long enough to reach to the other ship, and you don't have a propulsuion pack. You decide to live life on the wild side and shove off from your ship, attempting a free-fall jump to the hull of the other vessel.

You're GMing this situation.

The character attempting this free-fall jump has Vacc Suit-3.

Are you thinking that Vacc Suit should not even be considered in this scenario?

According to the Vacc Suit description in the TB, it should be considered.

According to the Zero-G rules in the TB, it shouldn't be considered.

And, according to the Zero-G rules in Beltstrike, the Zero-G Environment skill should be used (not Vacc Suit).

I'm of the opinion that Vacc Suit should be considered in a situation like this.

And, if it's considered in this situation, then it should probably be considered when you go into melee with an opponent in Zero-G.

You disagree?

 

[far-trader]

I'd have to disagree and say no. I might rule (if in a benevolent mood) that VaccSuit skill would grant Zero-G Environment-0 skill so there'd be no penalty.

The way I see it...

VaccSuit skill governs proper use of the VaccSuit only. That's life support and comfort including proper monitoring of the suit systems and knowing how to fix a problem.

Zero-G Environment governs moving and working in Zero-G. Stuff like "free-falls" (actually applied force) and MMU (manned manuvering unit) flight, and "commom sense" stuff like not setting down your wrench where it'll float away.

Zero-G Combat is a specialized subset of Zero-G Environment and would grant Zero-G Environment-0. It's for knowing how to brace when engaged in combat in Zero-G, both on the offensive and the defensive.

That's my take in a nutshell.

 

[far-trader]

I'd have to disagree and say no. I might rule (if in a benevolent mood) that VaccSuit skill would grant Zero-G Environment-0 skill so there'd be no penalty.

The way I see it...

VaccSuit skill governs proper use of the VaccSuit only. That's life support and comfort including proper monitoring of the suit systems and knowing how to fix a problem.

Zero-G Environment governs moving and working in Zero-G. Stuff like "free-falls" (actually applied force) and MMU (manned manuvering unit) flight, and "commom sense" stuff like not setting down your wrench where it'll float away.

Zero-G Combat is a specialized subset of Zero-G Environment and would grant Zero-G Environment-0. It's for knowing how to brace when engaged in combat in Zero-G, both on the offensive and the defensive.

That's my take in a nutshell.

 

[Maladominus]

Nope, I don't disagree.

It just depends on the situation. Vacc Suit skill seems to be a skill that overlaps a lot of situations, and those include situations/hazards in open space.

At least one of the canon books give you the handwave and tells you to consider giving a favorable bonus for VaccSuit. For me, that would be good enough to give it a favorable consideration.... under the right circumstance.

Let's go back to your example situation. There is a character, let's say TWO characters, that are in the same situation, they are both freefalling in space, in a dangerous zero-G manuever.

Character A = only has Vacc Suit-3 skill

Character B = only has Zero-G Combat-3 skill

WJP, here is a hypothetical question for you. Are you going to treat those two characters exactly the same? Two characters, same predicament, same situation. Same skill levels... but different skills. Vacc Suit versus Zero-G skill. Are you going to treat the two skills like they are one and the same? Are you going to give both characters the EXACT same DM bonus in this situation? That's what this issue boils down to. How do you differentiate between the two skills given the same circumstances?

To be honest, I've never been put to GM this ambiguous predicament yet, so I'm not sure how I would answer that. I await your response first... and will let you take the first shot at this!

I'm playing devil's advocate here, as you can see. Then again, I admit that you are much better at tinkering with the game mechanics than I am. Thus... I await your response first.

 

[Maladominus]

Nope, I don't disagree.

It just depends on the situation. Vacc Suit skill seems to be a skill that overlaps a lot of situations, and those include situations/hazards in open space.

At least one of the canon books give you the handwave and tells you to consider giving a favorable bonus for VaccSuit. For me, that would be good enough to give it a favorable consideration.... under the right circumstance.

Let's go back to your example situation. There is a character, let's say TWO characters, that are in the same situation, they are both freefalling in space, in a dangerous zero-G manuever.

Character A = only has Vacc Suit-3 skill

Character B = only has Zero-G Combat-3 skill

WJP, here is a hypothetical question for you. Are you going to treat those two characters exactly the same? Two characters, same predicament, same situation. Same skill levels... but different skills. Vacc Suit versus Zero-G skill. Are you going to treat the two skills like they are one and the same? Are you going to give both characters the EXACT same DM bonus in this situation? That's what this issue boils down to. How do you differentiate between the two skills given the same circumstances?

To be honest, I've never been put to GM this ambiguous predicament yet, so I'm not sure how I would answer that. I await your response first... and will let you take the first shot at this!

I'm playing devil's advocate here, as you can see. Then again, I admit that you are much better at tinkering with the game mechanics than I am. Thus... I await your response first.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
VaccSuit skill governs proper use of the VaccSuit only.

I see your point, Dan. The problem I would have with that is that CT skills tend to be very broad. A character doesn't get many of 'em, so the skills he does get have to cover a wide variety of situations.

Going by your take on things (which is somewhat supported in CT stuff, and not in other ways), what good is the Vacc Suit skill?

I mean, it's such a common skill. Many CT characters get Vacc Suit.

What types of game situations would come up where having Vacc Suit-3 is a true benefit?

I guess my take on Vacc Suit is that its a wide-ranging skill that is applicable to many situations.

I view Zero-G Environment as a broader skill than Vacc Suit (kinda like the Books 4 and 5 Handgun skill and Pistol skill vs a straight AutoPistol skill...the first two are broader versions of the last skill).

(Or, take the situation where Admin, Liasion, Streetwise, and Carousing overlap--depending on who you're talking to, there's definitely some over lap there.)

So, I'm viewing Vacc Suit the same way. It's a skill used for rolls of Zero-G operations (anything from movement to patching a leak in the suit).

Zero-G Envrionment is a broader skill. And Zero-G Combat is a narrower skill.

But, in many situations, I think Vacc Suit, Zero-G Environment, or Zero-G combat can be used inter-changeably (not unlike the way AutoPistol, Handgun, and Pistol can all be used interchangeably).

For example, in Beltstrike, the DM that is used after a melee attack in Zero-G is +4 per skill level of Zero-G Environment or Zero-G Combat skill. Either can be used to get the +4 per level DM.

I really don't see a problem with using Vacc Suit skill that way either: +4 per level of Vacc Suit skill.

I guess I posted this here to see if someone could open my eyes to something I'm not seeing.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
VaccSuit skill governs proper use of the VaccSuit only.

I see your point, Dan. The problem I would have with that is that CT skills tend to be very broad. A character doesn't get many of 'em, so the skills he does get have to cover a wide variety of situations.

Going by your take on things (which is somewhat supported in CT stuff, and not in other ways), what good is the Vacc Suit skill?

I mean, it's such a common skill. Many CT characters get Vacc Suit.

What types of game situations would come up where having Vacc Suit-3 is a true benefit?

I guess my take on Vacc Suit is that its a wide-ranging skill that is applicable to many situations.

I view Zero-G Environment as a broader skill than Vacc Suit (kinda like the Books 4 and 5 Handgun skill and Pistol skill vs a straight AutoPistol skill...the first two are broader versions of the last skill).

(Or, take the situation where Admin, Liasion, Streetwise, and Carousing overlap--depending on who you're talking to, there's definitely some over lap there.)

So, I'm viewing Vacc Suit the same way. It's a skill used for rolls of Zero-G operations (anything from movement to patching a leak in the suit).

Zero-G Envrionment is a broader skill. And Zero-G Combat is a narrower skill.

But, in many situations, I think Vacc Suit, Zero-G Environment, or Zero-G combat can be used inter-changeably (not unlike the way AutoPistol, Handgun, and Pistol can all be used interchangeably).

For example, in Beltstrike, the DM that is used after a melee attack in Zero-G is +4 per skill level of Zero-G Environment or Zero-G Combat skill. Either can be used to get the +4 per level DM.

I really don't see a problem with using Vacc Suit skill that way either: +4 per level of Vacc Suit skill.

I guess I posted this here to see if someone could open my eyes to something I'm not seeing.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
WJP, here is a hypothetical question for you. Are you going to treat those two characters exactly the same?

Hmm, I dunno. Your question is the same type I'm having in deciding how to run this in my game. I posted this here because I'm undecided. I wanted to see other opinions.

But, Beltstrike would treat your example the same--

Let's expand your free-fall example to THREE characters now.

Alfred has Vacc Suit-3

Barney has Zero-G Combat-3

Charles has Zero-G Environment-3

Accoring to Beltstrike, but Barney and Charles would get the exact same roll.

My argument is leaning to: If both Barney and Charles get the same roll, then Alfred, with his Vacc Suit-3, should get the same roll too.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
WJP, here is a hypothetical question for you. Are you going to treat those two characters exactly the same?

Hmm, I dunno. Your question is the same type I'm having in deciding how to run this in my game. I posted this here because I'm undecided. I wanted to see other opinions.

But, Beltstrike would treat your example the same--

Let's expand your free-fall example to THREE characters now.

Alfred has Vacc Suit-3

Barney has Zero-G Combat-3

Charles has Zero-G Environment-3

Accoring to Beltstrike, but Barney and Charles would get the exact same roll.

My argument is leaning to: If both Barney and Charles get the same roll, then Alfred, with his Vacc Suit-3, should get the same roll too.

 

[far-trader]

It is kind of confusing when the same task (Zero-G Combat) is treated in 5 different ways in CT

First we have Book 2 which seems to have it under the "non-ordinary maneuver" of VaccSuit use.

Then along comes Book 4 with the new Zero-G Combat skill specifically for Zero-G Combat and allowing DMs for Battle Dress skill (which is treated as equivalent to VaccSuit skill for normal use but adds the proper use of the PGMP-13 and FGMP-14)

Next is Book 5 which also has Zero-G Combat but in this case it allows DMs for VaccSuit skill.

Following on are Book 6 and Book 7 which also have Zero-G Combat skill but neither allows DMs for VaccSuit skill (or BD skill).

Finally The Traveller Book adds rules for zero-g combat but no skill is needed and no DMs are allowed for VaccSuit skill.

So are we to presume that a Marine combatant handles ZGC differently from a Naval combatant, and a Scout and Merchant combatant, and a basic Book 2 combatant, and the TB combatant? Or should we all consolidate these inconsistant rules into a single general rule? I'd say the latter and simply rule that ZGC skill does not include DMs for VaccSuit skill and non-ZGC skilled combatants suffer the usual negative.

I guess since Zero-G Environment only shows up in Beltstrike (and MT) it should probably be lumped into the VaccSuit and Battle Dress skills as it was originally done, but I'd rather add a ZGE skill.

 

[far-trader]

It is kind of confusing when the same task (Zero-G Combat) is treated in 5 different ways in CT

First we have Book 2 which seems to have it under the "non-ordinary maneuver" of VaccSuit use.

Then along comes Book 4 with the new Zero-G Combat skill specifically for Zero-G Combat and allowing DMs for Battle Dress skill (which is treated as equivalent to VaccSuit skill for normal use but adds the proper use of the PGMP-13 and FGMP-14)

Next is Book 5 which also has Zero-G Combat but in this case it allows DMs for VaccSuit skill.

Following on are Book 6 and Book 7 which also have Zero-G Combat skill but neither allows DMs for VaccSuit skill (or BD skill).

Finally The Traveller Book adds rules for zero-g combat but no skill is needed and no DMs are allowed for VaccSuit skill.

So are we to presume that a Marine combatant handles ZGC differently from a Naval combatant, and a Scout and Merchant combatant, and a basic Book 2 combatant, and the TB combatant? Or should we all consolidate these inconsistant rules into a single general rule? I'd say the latter and simply rule that ZGC skill does not include DMs for VaccSuit skill and non-ZGC skilled combatants suffer the usual negative.

I guess since Zero-G Environment only shows up in Beltstrike (and MT) it should probably be lumped into the VaccSuit and Battle Dress skills as it was originally done, but I'd rather add a ZGE skill.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Or should we all consolidate these inconsistant rules into a single general rule? I'd say the latter and simply rule that ZGC skill does not include DMs for VaccSuit skill and non-ZGC skilled combatants suffer the usual negative.

I tend to agree that a consolidated rule is what is needed (which is, really, why I'm thinking about this in the first place--trying to make a good ruling for my game).

Can you give me some examples of the types of throws Zero-G Combat skill and Vacc Suit skill would cover?

I wouldn't mind looking at how you see the differences in them.

I guess since Zero-G Environment only shows up in Beltstrike (and MT) it should probably be lumped into the VaccSuit and Battle Dress skills as it was originally done, but I'd rather add a ZGE skill.

Another interesting tid-bit is that Beltstrike includes CharGen for Belter characters.

On the first term, Belter characters automatically get (you guessed it) Vacc Suit-1.

On term three, they automatically get Zero-G Environment.

Obviously, something different was intended for the two skills (I has wondered if the Zero-G Environment skill was intended to replace the Vacc Suit skill), since Vacc Suit doesn't show up on the Zero-G maneuvers chart in Beltstrike.

Vacc Suit doesn't show up there, yet, in the TB description, maneuvers are definitely discussed with Vacc Suit skill used as a DM on any maneuver-type roll.

You're right. This is a bit confusing.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Or should we all consolidate these inconsistant rules into a single general rule? I'd say the latter and simply rule that ZGC skill does not include DMs for VaccSuit skill and non-ZGC skilled combatants suffer the usual negative.

I tend to agree that a consolidated rule is what is needed (which is, really, why I'm thinking about this in the first place--trying to make a good ruling for my game).

Can you give me some examples of the types of throws Zero-G Combat skill and Vacc Suit skill would cover?

I wouldn't mind looking at how you see the differences in them.

I guess since Zero-G Environment only shows up in Beltstrike (and MT) it should probably be lumped into the VaccSuit and Battle Dress skills as it was originally done, but I'd rather add a ZGE skill.

Another interesting tid-bit is that Beltstrike includes CharGen for Belter characters.

On the first term, Belter characters automatically get (you guessed it) Vacc Suit-1.

On term three, they automatically get Zero-G Environment.

Obviously, something different was intended for the two skills (I has wondered if the Zero-G Environment skill was intended to replace the Vacc Suit skill), since Vacc Suit doesn't show up on the Zero-G maneuvers chart in Beltstrike.

Vacc Suit doesn't show up there, yet, in the TB description, maneuvers are definitely discussed with Vacc Suit skill used as a DM on any maneuver-type roll.

You're right. This is a bit confusing.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
VaccSuit skill governs proper use of the VaccSuit only.

I see your point, Dan. The problem I would have with that is that CT skills tend to be very broad. A character doesn't get many of 'em, so the skills he does get have to cover a wide variety of situations.

Going by your take on things (which is somewhat supported in CT stuff, and not in other ways), what good is the Vacc Suit skill?

I mean, it's such a common skill. Many CT characters get Vacc Suit.

What types of game situations would come up where having Vacc Suit-3 is a true benefit?</font>[/QUOTE]Explosive decompression for one. But I can certainly see your point, and the support for it. As you say Book 2 skills have to be interpreted a little broader since the basic character generation means fewer kinds and lower levels of skills. The mess starts when adding advanced generation characters and the extra skills they bring (both in kinds and levels) to a group of mixed basic and advanced characters (probably a bad idea).

I have no real problem with it your way either. All I ask as a player is consistancy and fairness in rules, whatever they may be. And that's my guiding principle as a ref. I was only offering my take as one opinion to spur debate.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by WJP:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
VaccSuit skill governs proper use of the VaccSuit only.

I see your point, Dan. The problem I would have with that is that CT skills tend to be very broad. A character doesn't get many of 'em, so the skills he does get have to cover a wide variety of situations.

Going by your take on things (which is somewhat supported in CT stuff, and not in other ways), what good is the Vacc Suit skill?

I mean, it's such a common skill. Many CT characters get Vacc Suit.

What types of game situations would come up where having Vacc Suit-3 is a true benefit?</font>[/QUOTE]Explosive decompression for one. But I can certainly see your point, and the support for it. As you say Book 2 skills have to be interpreted a little broader since the basic character generation means fewer kinds and lower levels of skills. The mess starts when adding advanced generation characters and the extra skills they bring (both in kinds and levels) to a group of mixed basic and advanced characters (probably a bad idea).

I have no real problem with it your way either. All I ask as a player is consistancy and fairness in rules, whatever they may be. And that's my guiding principle as a ref. I was only offering my take as one opinion to spur debate.