Valkyrie Class Frigate

[Rigel Stardin]

This is my design for the Valkyrie Class Frigate. Outside the fact, side and front view of the drawing suck, the drawing is lacking something? I’d like you guys to help me out here. Nor am I afraid of redesigning interior. I would like to keep the design very close to what I have for a top view.

Generally the ship is designed as a patrol frigate, a complement of 12 troops and a CIC to control special ops. It does quite a missile load (160 short range missiles in 8 launchers), 4 Laser cannons, 4 dual laser turrets and 2 QF Torpedo launchers.

Suggest welcome because there is something missing in the design and I just don’t know what it is.

The design is posted in the art gallery under starships...

 

[steventirey1985]

Is there a way to access then engines? (I believe those are engines - those areas on the far left side of the image, that the fins attach to.) Might make it hard to repair those without access.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

At the end of the boom yes, and no there isn't. Mounted to the side of the booms are the fuel scoops with purifier. I thought an access tunnel through the fuel tanks wasn't a good idea. It would be a weak point in and around the enginneering section...

 

[Carlobrand]

I'm guessing this isn't for High Guard or Megatrav.

A few thoughts:

If you can do it, your hydrogen tanks will serve you better if you put them between your crew and the things that want to kill your crew. Up front, along the flanks, anywhere the laser's or missile fragment or whatever is likely to strike. They'll absorb a bit of the energy and reduce the resulting damage.

You've got crew quarters in the protected centerline of the ship and critical ship systems - bridge, etc. - out in the vulnerable periphery. Crew aren't going to be in their quarters during combat; they'll be manning those critical systems. I think they'd be much happier to see a laser take out an empty bunkroom than a manned duty station. Combine that with the fuel idea, and you've got two additional layers of protection between key stations and enemy fire. I know it doesn't mean anything in game terms, but a purpose-built warship should look like the designer is thinking of ways to give the crew a fighting edge.

Unless you're expecting them to explode or they're radiating or something, you really want your drives where you can get at them for emergency repairs. And, booms make for a pretty civilian ship, but warships want to reduce their target area as much as possible. That pair of booms with empty space between them just means your ship is longer than it needs to be. I'm in the camp that believes a good warship should look like a prize fighter, not a dancer.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Shield generators allow for artistic designs even for warship. They also allow ships such as this the ablity to survive space combat. In MTU, I play hard and fast with weapon system, there is a high probablity of a single missile or particle weapon can destroy a ship. So location of crew quaters and other internal items isn't important.

As to your suggest, the Broadsword Class Frigate is a more compact design which follow your ideas more closely than this design. Nor would I call the Valkyrie the greatest warship I've ever designed. There are flaws in every design and those I play tested point them out rather quicky.

I experiment with this design because the over all shape interest me and I do this as a hobby.

Sphere, tubes, wedges and boxes may make for the perfect warship but how many people do you know will want to use them in their game?

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I’m going to try and explain my philosophy on space combat.

There is a movie that TCM plays every now and again call the Bedford Incident. In that movie, a 60’s era US Destroyer is chasing a Soviet non-nuclear submarine armed with nuclear torpedoes. You have to watch the movie to get the exact quote but basically a reporter asks the Captain what is the defense against Nuclear Torpedoes. His basic answer: None.

Fast forward to the 90’s, missiles like the non-nuclear Harpoon devastate ships and torpedoes explode under the ship’s keel to crack the back of ships. Nuclear torpedoes are delegated to destroying fleets, harbors and naval bases.

Now advance this line of thought several centuries into the future where lasers and particle weapons are common place. Explosives would have advanced as well delivering more and more destructive force at the point of impact. No matter how much armor technology advances there will always be a way to defeat it using conventional means.

Nuclear weapons are seen as barbaric because the after effects of radiation and their ability to destroy biospheres. Chemical and Biological weapons are viewed in much the same way. Warfare on the interstellar level is more about pacifying a planet with the least amount of damage to the civilian population. A planet engaged in guerilla warfare burns up more manpower and material than a planet that accepts the rule of an invader. Therefore, it’s easier for an invading interstellar community to destroy the government and military assets than causing wholesale slaughter.

So in MTU ships don’t carry nuclear weapons for use again rival or hostile nation. Those that do practice this, find themselves in a deep world of hurt if they provoke warfare against established interstellar communities.

Ship design under this philosophy is more about an interstellar community’s culture than it is about building the ultimatum armored design battleship. A ship’s design is intended to be as much as visual deterrent as well as flying the flag so to speak. Wedge shape ships for example may indicate “X” empire warships while spheres may indicate “Z” Federation ships. In the case of the Valkyrie, Broadsword, Sabre, and Valhalla, they all indicate that they are Alliance warships. Or at least, they were designed by one culture who liked the ovaloid design.

Of course, there is more to it than what I’ve stated since my design incorporate decoys, armor and shields as countermeasures against the weapon systems I allow in MTU. The large amount of short range missiles the Valkyrie has is intended to overwhelm a ship’s defense using volley fire. The drawback here is it has to be at short range to accomplish this sort of attack. The laser cannons and QF Torpedo launchers are intend to allow the ship to get close to the enemy vessel by rushing head long at the target. Thus, this is an assault style attack craft. Another drawback is there is no rear facing weapons, so if it turns and runs the only thing it can do is suppress enemy missile fire and fighters with its 4 laser turrets.

Reality verse artistic license allows me to design ships which look neat but have flaws in them which make for an interesting game. Players often go for the stylistic designs because of the “WOW” factor only to realize it was a poor choice. Then there are those players who see those flaws and design tactics to prevent me from destroying them. It makes for an interesting game to say the least.

I really do what your input on this design because it’s been ages since I’ve played and need a challenge. I will consider putting access tunnels for the ship’s engines since two people believe they are necessary. But keep in mind, modern warfare design of naval vessels I’m not a big fan of 100 gun battleships.

 

[Carlobrand]

Sphere, tubes, wedges and boxes may make for the perfect warship but how many people do you know will want to use them in their game?

Well, there's me. In my mind, if a spaceship is a beautiful woman, then the warship is the mother-in-law with the big rolling pin in one hand: you know at a glance that you really don't want to mess with her.

I’m going to try and explain my philosophy on space combat. ... a reporter asks the Captain what is the defense against Nuclear Torpedoes. His basic answer: None.

Fast forward to the 90’s, missiles like the non-nuclear Harpoon devastate ships and torpedoes explode under the ship’s keel to crack the back of ships. ...

Now advance this line of thought several centuries into the future ... Explosives would have advanced as well delivering more and more destructive force at the point of impact. No matter how much armor technology advances there will always be a way to defeat it using conventional means.

... it’s easier for an invading interstellar community to destroy the government and military assets than causing wholesale slaughter.

So in MTU ships don’t carry nuclear weapons for use again rival or hostile nation. ...
...
... keep in mind, modern warfare design of naval vessels I’m not a big fan of 100 gun battleships.

And I'm not a fan of form over function. I see an engine on a boom as an interesting way of finding your ship and your engine on different trajectories as a result of battle damage. It's one thing to lose an engine because of a nasty hit. It's quite another to lose it because something separated you from it.

Mind you, I like your basic lines. The best way to avoid damage in any era is not to get hit in the first place. That principal sets value on agility, which - if you go by the standard Traveller assumptions - means being able to quickly spin your ship to bring your drives in line with a desired new course that the enemy hopefully hasn't anticipated. The more compact your ship, the easier it is to spin. However, the more compact your ship, the more cross-section you present to the enemy, so Broadsword-types do have certain obvious disadvantages.

Your design, on the other hand, presents a minimal cross section to the enemy - there's less to hit when you're head-on or tail-on to them. If you lose a bit in agility (which is a big if when you've got inertial dampers to help out), then your advantage in small target area more than offsets that. There's a bit more when you're broadside, but that just means your cross-section fluctuates as you maneuver, which still makes you a difficult target. You're vulnerable from above, but if you're taking fire from that angle, you're either badly outnumbered, badly outmaneuvered or you're in the kind of fleet engagement where he's taking off-angle fire as well.

Fighter planes often carry an armored crew compartment - even if the fighter doesn't survive, it pays to be able to bring the crew home to put them in another fighter. WW-I era warships often had coal bunkers strategically positioned to absorb shell hits. Modern warships - despite the overwhelming power of modern weapons - contain damage-control design features that make it more likely for the ship to stay afloat and the crew to survive even in the face of horrendous damage. Whatever the "realities" of your future weapons' power, anything you do that gives the appearance of designing the ship to maximize survival - internal airtight doors to divide halls and compartmentalize the ship, for example - makes the design look more like a purpose-built warship that expects to take damage and less like a civilian ship.

By the way, you might also consider deck hatches. I'm not sure what on that design is supposed to be the elevator, but if you lose ship's power in a serious hit, you need an alternative way to move from deck to deck while your crew effects repairs or does whatever is needed to survive until rescue arrives.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

In this design I use ladder (Yellow bars with dotted line boxes around them). The dotted boxes signify hatches which can be closed off between decks. There is one central access point that runs through all four decks and towards the bow there is an access point for the two main decks. You’ll find in most of my designs for military ships, I use ladders over elevators because if the power goes out, decks can still be access.

When I was running games, I simplified the armor as well. I combined ablative and hard armor simply calling space-gapped armor. It provide defense against energy and kinetic energy weapons (Missiles). So I only had 3 types of armor: Plate, Space-Gapped and Superdense.

As far as shield goes in MTU, they are energy hogs. I had a homebrew method which allowed me to determine the power output of a ship’s reactor (Long forgotten formula which I can’t remember off hand). Shield requires two points of power for every one point of defense. So you can imagine a ship with 25 energy points only got 12 points of defense, which usually meant, 12 missile or energy weapons hits before the ship took damage.

As far as damage control, that phase of the game came after combat. Even thou my ships don’t show damage control station or bulkheads, they are there and built into the design. Self sealing fuel tanks were option on merchant vessel but stand fair on combat ships. I glossed over a lot of details on combat ships because you expected that sort of stuff to be there. But as far as civilian ships went I was very specific on what the player wanted when he designed it.

Finally, a lot of my warships have the bridge located in the bow of the ship. It’s sort of an unwritten law for me, that the command staff led this ship into battle. In the case of the Valkyrie, the deck at the top of the drawing is the bridge. It exposes them to danger in the same manner as the bow bridge. I don’t know where this idea came from and how it got stuck in my head but there is something about the command staff begin exposed to danger that psychologically aides the commander’s ability to control the crew.

 

[Carlobrand]

Ah, I see it. I'm not accustomed to the design program, so it's a little difficult for me to tell what's what.

I've given my thoughts. I don't really have much to add to that. For all that you have solicited ideas, you seem quite devoted to your design, and I don't want to come off as critical or nitpicky. It's an attractive design, with very clear strengths. There are features I would never abide in a warship, but it's not my design and I clearly don't know enough about the social structure in your universe to comment on those features. Best I think if I leave it at that.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I understand the engine/fuel tank booms are giving alot of people concerns about the design. But this is the way I look at it, the P-38 Lightning was also a double boomed plane. It had range and speed eventhou it did suffer from technical problems. Now advance this concept to a starship and you'll see where I'm going with this design...

...And yes nitpick and be critical, the only thing I ask is the general form remains...

 

[far-trader]

...the drawing is lacking something? I’d like you guys to help me out here.

First thought, wings.The rest of it looks aces in my book.

Quick doodle possible general size, placement and shape - midline of main hull naturally, I don't think it will interfere with the missile bays(?):

 

[Rigel Stardin]

The question now is the can the Art Gallery handle a 20 by 20 inch drawing? The present drawing size is 15 by 15 inches according to my software.

Just one more thing: The Valkyrie is a patrol frigate to used by the Colonial Authority. It serves on the frontier and acts both as a law enforcement and interdiction vessel. So wings might be a good idea.

Note to self: add brig...

 

[Gray Pennell]

I like the wing idea but I would go with delta wings to make the haul more of a lifting body design.

 

[MCEvans]

I'm one who also has a problem of not being able to internally access the engines. So ... collapsible access tunnels, open during maintenance and low to no alert status, collapsed during combat or high alert stations.

Just food for thought.

 

[Major B]

I like Far-Trader's wing design. If the engines were brought forward and placed under the wings at the ship's "waist" it would have something of the look of a Korean War-era fighter jet.

But that makes the boom tail arrangement sort of pointless, unless maybe the fuel scoops and purifiers were there.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Note to self: With the Easter holiday going on at my house, I haven't had time to do much with the drawing, however I just had a flash of inspiration which will produce a whole new ship. Will try to post the drawing later on this week...

 

[far-trader]

We await the development with interested anticipation, have a great Easter!

...wait, the new drawing won't have big floppy ears and a cotton tail will it?

 

[Rigel Stardin]

We await the development with interested anticipation, have a great Easter!

...wait, the new drawing won't have big floppy ears and a cotton tail will it?

You were close, it's an easter egg with rabbit ears

Comments on these changes welcome...

Drawing up in gallery.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I've defined the wing's shape, the problem is I have nothing to show the equipment that extends or retracts the wings.

I'm going to post the drawing by editting the drawing already in the gallery. I don't want to junk up the gallery with revision after revision. So check on the progress after every post.

Comments are still welcome.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

I can post another update sometime this weekend. I've had the time to work on the drawing and add a great deal of detail to the ship. I'm allowing time for people to view the drawing before I change. Since I'm working on the drawing their is no going back after I update (I'm saving harddrive space by cutting pasting to the file so I'm not keeping back up files).