Vargr Language Arrghoun dialect

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

Background for my questions
A couple of months ago I used BITS 101 Corporations and randomly generated a Vargr Mining company. I recalled that CT Alien Module 3 Vargr had a two page list of Vargr words with Anglic translations and checked to see if a Vargr word for mining had already been generated.

I opened CT Alien Module 3 to page 26 which is titled Arrghoun Grammar. I noticed that in column 2 in the section under the heading of Punctuation that two of the punctuation symbols appeared to be the same. My next action was to read through the punctuation section, concluded this might be errata and made a post on the CT Errata forum. Donald McKinney replied that he needed a little more input for other members. Meanwhile, I began checking through the grammar rules and began translating the material on CT Alien Module 3 pages 24-25, which I added to my original post. My efforts resulted in finding a single case that supported the grammar rules on page 26. Unfortunately, the 20 lines of the story I have translated on page 24 column is adding more possible errata. The story is in the Vargr dialect of Arrghoun and the first possible errata is that the word gvurrdon is not listed in the vocabulary on pages 22-23. Next comes the word satoengetes which per the Grammar material on page 26 appears to be the past action conjugation of verb toenge. Unfortunately, the suffix of tes doesn't match the grammar rule on page 26.

I contacted Donald McKinney via email showing some of several other items in addition to the two mentioned that could be errata based on CT Alien Module pages 7, 14, 22-23, and 26. After a couple of emails Donald asked which Vargr language dialect I was referring to since the material on pages 7 and 14 where for the Gvegh dialect of the Vargr language. My reply was to manually type a copy of page 26 Arrghoun Grammar in response to his question. Donald indicated that I needed to figure out the differences between Gvegh and Arrghoun by following the instructions on pages 7 and 14.

I've put the manual translation of the text on pages 24-25 and have begun checking the Arrghoun vocabulary with the Gvegh language tables on page 7 as templates. My rough review resulted in finding that Arrghoun has initial consonsants of hv (only one example), zd, zh, and zl. Arrghoun has one vowel example of ai.

From the rough review I have now completely deconstructed 289, I working on 290, words. For the most part Arrghoun vocabulary appears to follow the Gvegh language rules, unfortunately there are one or two cases where the Arrghoun dialect does not match the Gvegh rules.

The first Gvegh rule that syllables ending in a vowel cannot be followed by syllables beginning with a vowel. In the Arrghoun vocabulary I have found two cases where syllables ending in a vowel are followed by syllables starting with a vowel.

My only language experiences are American English, one high school semester of German and two semesters of Spanish. Which means I am not
anywhere close to being a linguist and reading the details on CT Alien Module 3 page haven't really helped me figure out what may or may not be errata.

1. How much difference would there be between Arrghoun and Gvegh dialects per page 7.

2. How much has the grammar rules changed between Arrghoun and Gvegh?

Any help would be appreciated?

Please note my efforts are aimed at trying to get the material on pages 22-26 and the Anglic translation on pages 44-45 to match with the language and grammar rules.

 

[rancke]

1. How much difference would there be between Arrghoun and Gvegh dialects per page 7.

2. How much has the grammar rules changed between Arrghoun and Gvegh?

Well, Arrghoun is an old and obscure language while Gvegh is a contemporary language with (AFAICR) no indication that it is related to Arrghoun (Though I could be misremembering about the second part). So I'd say that they're probably not very close.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Hans,

Been a long time since we last conversed and as always thank you very much for the reply.

Well, Arrghoun is an old and obscure language while Gvegh is a contemporary language with (AFAICR) no indication that it is related to Arrghoun (Though I could be misremembering about the second part). So I'd say that they're probably not very close.


Hans

During the first once over Arrghoun Initial Consonants included all of the Gvegh Initial Consonants plus hv (one use) and multiple uses of zd, zh, and zl. Arrghoun Vowels use all the same vowels. For the final consonants the only one that I did not see was the Gvegh khs.

The deconstruction process has revealed the following so far:

No changes to the initial consonants mentioned from the first once over so far.
Single use of the vowel combination: ai, eu
Single use of the final consonants of: rgh, nz, tz, rrz, kht

On page 7 the first sentence at the top of column two is the word generation rule stating that Gvaek (I think this should be spelled Gvegh) syllables ending in a vowel cannot be followed by a syllable which begins with a vowel. So far I have only found two examples in Arrghoun that appears to break the Gvegh rule.

Do you know of any vocabulary of Gvegh to Anglic translations?

Than you again for the reply,

 

[tjoneslo]

Hello Hans,

Do you know of any vocabulary of Gvegh to Anglic translations?

The only large scale Vargr language listing is in Alien Module 3, and bits and pieces elsewhere. I've not had the time to transcribe anything like that into the wiki.

 

[rancke]

Hi Tom,

Here we go: Arrghoun is a now lost Vargr language. It was known widely in the Gvurrdon Sector during the -1300s, replaced by Gvegh and its related family of languages by the -900s.

During the first once over Arrghoun Initial Consonants included all of the Gvegh Initial Consonants plus hv (one use) and multiple uses of zd, zh, and zl. Arrghoun Vowels use all the same vowels. For the final consonants the only one that I did not see was the Gvegh khs.

The deconstruction process has revealed the following so far:

No changes to the initial consonants mentioned from the first once over so far.
Single use of the vowel combination: ai, eu
Single use of the final consonants of: rgh, nz, tz, rrz, kht

On page 7 the first sentence at the top of column two is the word generation rule stating that Gvaek (I think this should be spelled Gvegh) syllables ending in a vowel cannot be followed by a syllable which begins with a vowel. So far I have only found two examples in Arrghoun that appears to break the Gvegh rule.

That would certainly serve as evidence enough for me that Gvegh is related to Arrghoun.

(In-universe evidence, that is. On the meta-level I think the writers of CT:Vargr simply used the same letter tables for Arrghoun and for Gvegh without considering the implications. I'm also willing to bet that 99% of made-up fanon words will have the same letter frequencies, regardless of where in Charted Space the language is supposed to have roots.)

The text I quoted above would seem to say that Arrghoun was replaced by Gvegh (and its related family of languages), but I suppose one could stretch a point and interpret it to mean that Arrghoun transformed into Gvegh. Though against that speaks the difficulty that the adventure implies is involved in translating the Arrghoun text.


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

The text I quoted above would seem to say that Arrghoun was replaced by Gvegh (and its related family of languages), but I suppose one could stretch a point and interpret it to mean that Arrghoun transformed into Gvegh. Though against that speaks the difficulty that the adventure implies is involved in translating the Arrghoun text.

Superficial similarities could hamper translation if they aren't real.

 

[rancke]

Superficial similarities could hamper translation if they aren't real.

Yes, but if Gvegh is derived from Arrghoun rather than being unrelated and having replaced it, would the similarities be superficial?


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello tjoneslo,

Another person I have not heard from in a while and also someone who I appreciate taking time out to give me a hand or a swift kick in the butt when I get too hard headed.;-)

The only large scale Vargr language listing is in Alien Module 3, and bits and pieces elsewhere. I've not had the time to transcribe anything like that into the wiki.

Yes, CT Alien Module 3 is what I'm working with and I'm also combing through the MT Alien Volume I which also appears to be a different Vargr dialect.

Once I'm done with my efforts and Donald McKinney has vetted any errata would you like a copy to massage into something for wiki?

I tried a while back to provide some editing and couldn't figure out how to get the changes entered.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again Hans,

Hi Tom,

Here we go: Arrghoun is a now lost Vargr language. It was known widely in the Gvurrdon Sector during the -1300s, replaced by Gvegh and its related family of languages by the -900s.

Part of the information on the link provided appears to be taken from CT Alien Module 3 page 26. The dates are not part of the grammar information.

That would certainly serve as evidence enough for me that Gvegh is related to Arrghoun.

(In-universe evidence, that is. On the meta-level I think the writers of CT:Vargr simply used the same letter tables for Arrghoun and for Gvegh without considering the implications. I'm also willing to bet that 99% of made-up fanon words will have the same letter frequencies, regardless of where in Charted Space the language is supposed to have roots.)

The text I quoted above would seem to say that Arrghoun was replaced by Gvegh (and its related family of languages), but I suppose one could stretch a point and interpret it to mean that Arrghoun transformed into Gvegh. Though against that speaks the difficulty that the adventure implies is involved in translating the Arrghoun text.


Hans

When I started translating the Vargr language document my thought was that Arrghoun used the Gvegh tables. That was before Donald McKinney's nudge about checking the language tables to determine any differences between the two.

From what I've done so far I think that Arrghoun was probably derived from early Gvegh as a specialized trade language which went a way for something else.

Thanks again for the link and help.

 

[rancke]

Part of the information on the link provided appears to be taken from CT Alien Module 3 page 26. The dates are not part of the grammar information.

The -1300s is from p. 42: "A qualified linguist can identify the language as Arrghoun, which was prominent throughout this sector about 2,500 years ago." 2,500 years before 1105 is -1395. I can't find where the other date is from, although the same page mentions that the document with the story is 2000 years old.

It's Thomas who put up the wiki article back in 2007. Perhaps he can remember where he got it.

When I started translating the Vargr language document my thought was that Arrghoun used the Gvegh tables. That was before Donald McKinney's nudge about checking the language tables to determine any differences between the two.

The adventure says that Arrgohun is a relatively obscure language and that it takes a linguist to identify it. So it's not the Latin of the Gvurrdon region.


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

It's Thomas who put up the wiki article back in 2007. Perhaps he can remember where he got it.

I spent some time looking through the sites I had trolled for information, and the entire HIGW CD, for the source, but couldn't find anything. One reference said Traveller Digest 3 had an article about the Vargr languages too. But that's not an issue I possess.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning PDT Hans,

snrdg082102[/B]
Part of the information on the link provided appears to be taken from CT Alien Module 3 page 26. The dates are not part of the grammar information.

The -1300s is from p. 42: "A qualified linguist can identify the language as Arrghoun, which was prominent throughout this sector about 2,500 years ago." 2,500 years before 1105 is -1395. I can't find where the other date is from, although the same page mentions that the document with the story is 2000 years old.

Thank you for the page number, I have been concentrating on the vocabulary, translation and grammar of the Vargr document and focused on pages 22-26 and 44-45.

I must be blind since I can not locate the date of 1105, though the date does look familiar.

It's Thomas who put up the wiki article back in 2007. Perhaps he can remember where he got it.

After 6 years and how many ever projects later some of the sources may have disappeared, especially those on the Internet. I have book marked several sites which have since gone away and I haven't been able to find them again.

The adventure says that Arrgohun is a relatively obscure language and that it takes a linguist to identify it. So it's not the Latin of the Gvurrdon region.


Hans

Only strengthens my notion that Arrghoun is an off-shoot of Gvegh and not the other way around.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning tjoneslo, aka Thomas,

I spent some time looking through the sites I had trolled for information, and the entire HIGW CD, for the source, but couldn't find anything. One reference said Traveller Digest 3 had an article about the Vargr languages too. But that's not an issue I possess.

Thank you for taking the time look through the sources and adding to my ever growing wish list of Traveller material to purchase.

 

[rancke]

I must be blind since I can not locate the date of 1105, though the date does look familiar.

It's the date of the first Classic Era adventure and (I assumed without checking) the date of the adventure in GT:Vargr. Upon checking I find that the date of the adventure is 1111 [p. 2]. However, since 2000 and 2500 are round numbers, I don't think it matters.

Only strengthens my notion that Arrghoun is an off-shoot of Gvegh and not the other way around.

An offshoot of proto-Gvegh, I suppose you mean. Well maybe. If the Romans had had a trade language derived as a simplified form of Latin used throughout the Mediterranean 2000 years ago, I think it would be pretty easy to identify today as a derivation of Latin.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Thanks Han

It's the date of the first Classic Era adventure and (I assumed without checking) the date of the adventure in GT:Vargr. Upon checking I find that the date of the adventure is 1111 [p. 2]. However, since 2000 and 2500 are round numbers, I don't think it matters.

I even missed the 1111 date which shows I am having a Monday on a Sunday.

I agree that plus or minus six years really does not matter over a period of 2,000 or 2,500 years.

An offshoot of proto-Gvegh, I suppose you mean. Well maybe. If the Romans had had a trade language derived as a simplified form of Latin used throughout the Mediterranean 2000 years ago, I think it would be pretty easy to identify today as a derivation of Latin.


Hans

As I mentioned I am not a linguist and hopefully my use of American English is at least average. Yes, I probably do mean proto-Gvegh and since my knowledge of Latin is extremely limited, okay practically non-existent, I will consider the idea you provided until something else comes along.

 

[aramis]

It's the date of the first Classic Era adventure and (I assumed without checking) the date of the adventure in GT:Vargr. Upon checking I find that the date of the adventure is 1111 [p. 2]. However, since 2000 and 2500 are round numbers, I don't think it matters.


An offshoot of proto-Gvegh, I suppose you mean. Well maybe. If the Romans had had a trade language derived as a simplified form of Latin used throughout the Mediterranean 2000 years ago, I think it would be pretty easy to identify today as a derivation of Latin.


Hans

Not everyone is able to make the intellectual leap that French is Latin with some Galatian Celtic mixed in, or Spanish is Latin with Iberian and Arabic mixed in. Some wouldn't follow if given a roadmap; the differences are profound. Someone familiar with all of the latin derivatives would likely realize the link.

 

[rancke]

Not everyone is able to make the intellectual leap that French is Latin with some Galatian Celtic mixed in, or Spanish is Latin with Iberian and Arabic mixed in. Some wouldn't follow if given a roadmap; the differences are profound. Someone familiar with all of the latin derivatives would likely realize the link.

No, but I think most people could make the leap that a simplified form of Latin was related to Latin. I keep coming back to the need for a professional linguist to identify Arrghoun. Perhaps I'm just reading too much into that.


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

Consider the effects of Vargr Charisma on society, the recording of history, and the life and death of languages. The right combination of wars and charisma-driven social changes could wipe a language off the map and out of any handy library in a generation.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy aramis,

Originally Posted by rancke
It's the date of the first Classic Era adventure and (I assumed without checking) the date of the adventure in GT:Vargr. Upon checking I find that the date of the adventure is 1111 [p. 2]. However, since 2000 and 2500 are round numbers, I don't think it matters.


An offshoot of proto-Gvegh, I suppose you mean. Well maybe. If the Romans had had a trade language derived as a simplified form of Latin used throughout the Mediterranean 2000 years ago, I think it would be pretty easy to identify today as a derivation of Latin.

Not everyone is able to make the intellectual leap that French is Latin with some Galatian Celtic mixed in, or Spanish is Latin with Iberian and Arabic mixed in. Some wouldn't follow if given a roadmap; the differences are profound. Someone familiar with all of the latin derivatives would likely realize the link.

Thanks for confirming that my vague memory about Spanish being related to Latin. Since I wasn't sure I didn't bring the connection up. Of course my most recent vague memory came from the Rogue Angel series written by Alex Archer and I'm pretty sure the author mentioned French as well.

 

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon PDT Hans,

No, but I think most people could make the leap that a simplified form of Latin was related to Latin. I keep coming back to the need for a professional linguist to identify Arrghoun. Perhaps I'm just reading too much into that.


Hans

The adventure does state that a qualified linguist is needed to identify the language as being the Vargr dialect of Arrghoun. I'm not sure that aramis met that most people could make the leap.