Vargr Language Arrghoun dialect

[snrdg082102]

Hello again GypsyComet,

Another individual I am glad to have drop by from past posts on Traveller forums.

Consider the effects of Vargr Charisma on society, the recording of history, and the life and death of languages. The right combination of wars and charisma-driven social changes could wipe a language off the map and out of any handy library in a generation.

I hadn't thought about that aspect but that does make sense.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[aramis]

Afternoon PDT Hans,



The adventure does state that a qualified linguist is needed to identify the language as being the Vargr dialect of Arrghoun. I'm not sure that aramis met that most people could make the leap,

Sorry, ran out of time before leaving for church.

What I mean is that sufficient time and lack of exposure, the common man probably wouldn't recognize Arrghoun words as Proto-Gvegh in the same way that many Latin Roots no longer have close association with their modern uses. Some have become half the meaning set they once were, due to borrowed words taking the other half of the meaning, some words being differentially dropped in different dialects and thus being broadened out to cover the losses (and perhaps even becoming the missing word's original meaning due to replacement by a borrowed word), pronunciation shifts, writing shifts, and other such oddities.

Plus, if talking an inscription, orthographic shifts. The attached image includes two forms of Latin Cursive... the lower one might very well throw even some latin speakers, and its' not even 1300 years out of use.

Orthography changes independently of meaning, its own slow morph.

The Cursiva Nueva has a few that would throw people; the cursiva antigua is 1700 years out of use, and they look like two different alphabets. But mind: in the last 1100 years, Slavic languages mostly went from Glagolitic to Cyrilic; the two are totally different baselines for character shape, but the same frequency sets,

Couple changes in meaning with a change in orthography, and it may be perfectly intelligible to the few scholars who can still read it... much like Demiotic was. Many Egyptian Copts can understand spoken demiotic inscriptions, but cannot read Demotic script. Again, about 1700 years. A Coptic alphabet based upon Greek replaced Demotic. And note that much modern Egyptian is actually Arabic; only a small minority still uses Coptic, and that for religious purposes.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/egyptian_demotic.htm
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/coptic.htm

Couple profound drift (highly likely with Vargr) with orthographic transformation, and it may be utterly incomprehensible as an inscription.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning aramis,

Not a problem from my end and my interpretation was on the right track about most people or the common man would not recognize Arrghoun as proto-Gvegh.

Thanks for the crash course which I will be going over a couple of more times since I am kind of slow.

Sorry, ran out of time before leaving for church.

What I mean is that sufficient time and lack of exposure, the common man probably wouldn't recognize Arrghoun words as Proto-Gvegh in the same way that many Latin Roots no longer have close association with their modern uses. Some have become half the meaning set they once were, due to borrowed words taking the other half of the meaning, some words being differentially dropped in different dialects and thus being broadened out to cover the losses (and perhaps even becoming the missing word's original meaning due to replacement by a borrowed word), pronunciation shifts, writing shifts, and other such oddities.

Plus, if talking an inscription, orthographic shifts. The attached image includes two forms of Latin Cursive... the lower one might very well throw even some latin speakers, and its' not even 1300 years out of use.

Orthography changes independently of meaning, its own slow morph.

The Cursiva Nueva has a few that would throw people; the cursiva antigua is 1700 years out of use, and they look like two different alphabets. But mind: in the last 1100 years, Slavic languages mostly went from Glagolitic to Cyrilic; the two are totally different baselines for character shape, but the same frequency sets,

Couple changes in meaning with a change in orthography, and it may be perfectly intelligible to the few scholars who can still read it... much like Demiotic was. Many Egyptian Copts can understand spoken demiotic inscriptions, but cannot read Demotic script. Again, about 1700 years. A Coptic alphabet based upon Greek replaced Demotic. And note that much modern Egyptian is actually Arabic; only a small minority still uses Coptic, and that for religious purposes.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/egyptian_demotic.htm
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/coptic.htm

Couple profound drift (highly likely with Vargr) with orthographic transformation, and it may be utterly incomprehensible as an inscription.

 

[rancke]

Yeah, I probably AM reading too much into it.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Hans,

Yeah, I probably AM reading too much into it.


Hans

In my opinion you are on the mark that a specialist is needed to recognize that Arrghoun is a very old relation to Gvegh.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening all,

I have discovered that per the Gvegh Language and naming on page 7 and using the tables on page 14 I can not spell the word Vargr. I can get a recreate a Basic syllable cluster of CVC breaking down to V+A+R, unfortunately there is no syllable structure for CC.

Any suggestions on how to fix this little issue?

 

[GypsyComet]

Is it established that "Vargr" is what they call themselves?

 

[whulorigan]

Is it established that "Vargr" is what they call themselves?

"Vargr" is derived from a root in Scandinavian/Norse languages for "wolf". Tolkien used a version of it in Middle-Earth, the "Warg", for his larger, shadow-influenced "dire-wolf" creatures that the Orcs rode like horses.

It is most likely that Vargr is an ancient Terran slang term for the species that has stuck.

 

[tjoneslo]

"Vargr" is derived from a root in Scandinavian/Norse languages for "wolf". Tolkien used a version of it in Middle-Earth, the "Warg", for his larger, shadow-influenced "dire-wolf" creatures that the Orcs rode like horses.

It is most likely that Vargr is an ancient Terran slang term for the species that has stuck.

Similar to the "Aslan" vs. "Fteirle" debate.

 

[GypsyComet]

Similar to the "Aslan" vs. "Fteirle" debate.

There's a debate?

"Aslan" was defined as the Human name for them from their first appearances in print, just as "Hiver" and "Centaur" are Anglic/Galanglic nicknames. I don't recall "Vargr" ever being described in those terms.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning GypsyComet

Evening all,

I have discovered that per the Gvegh Language and naming on page 7 and using the tables on page 14 I can not spell the word Vargr. I can get a recreate a Basic syllable cluster of CVC breaking down to V+A+R, unfortunately there is no syllable structure for CC.

Any suggestions on how to fix this little issue?

Is it established that "Vargr" is what they call themselves?

I do not have enough material to make a guess that I feel comfortable on whether or not they call themselves Vargr which may be the Anglic.

If my supposition is correct and Arrghoun is a branch of proto-Gvegh then the closest spelling to the Anglic Vargr could be varr, varrg, or varrgh based on the available final consonants per CT Alien Module pages 7 and 14. I am leaning towards varrg.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello whulorigan and thank you for the information.

Is it established that "Vargr" is what they call themselves?

"Vargr" is derived from a root in Scandinavian/Norse languages for "wolf". Tolkien used a version of it in Middle-Earth, the "Warg", for his larger, shadow-influenced "dire-wolf" creatures that the Orcs rode like horses.

It is most likely that Vargr is an ancient Terran slang term for the species that has stuck.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning GypsyComet,

There's a debate?

"Aslan" was defined as the Human name for them from their first appearances in print, just as "Hiver" and "Centaur" are Anglic/Galanglic nicknames. I don't recall "Vargr" ever being described in those terms.

Over on the YahooGroups CT Striker board there has been a discussion that started out Aslan military forces. Somewhere during the discussion that I saw the word "Fteirle" which was new to me. That doe not mean that somewhere back in time I was exposed to Aslan/Fteirle vocabulary, just that I do not recall the word when introduced.

I haven't found any mention either, however using the word generation tables for Gvegh and my best guess Arrghoun the word Vargr is not possible.

 

[lspitz]

As far as I know, the etymology of the word "Vargr" has never been addressed in canon, but it's pretty obviously derived from a North Germanic word for "wolf", as noted by whulorigan above, and it's highly doubtful that it's what the Vargr call themselves. Indeed, given the political and linguistic diversity of the Vargr, I'd be surprised if they had a universally accepted name for themselves.

As for the Arrghoun/Gvegh relationship, I'm inclined to think that they might be related, but we don't have enough data to be absolutely sure. Alien Module 3 is extremely unhelpful on this point. The Gvegh language family is mentioned, and Arrghoun is not listed as belonging to it. The sound frequency tables in the module are labelled simply as "Vargr Language", unspecified; is this for ancient Arrghoun, or contemporary Gvegh, or what? And are the two languages related? The module doesn't say.

The Arrghoun text appears to conform to the sound frequency tables. Arrghoun could be a precursor of Gvegh (as Latin was to French), or a sister language derived from an earlier common ancestor (as Latin and Greek are from Proto-Indo-European). Or they could come from different language families altogether, and Gvegh replaced Arrghoun throughout its historical range. This last is a bit of a logical jump; to make it work, you have to assume that the sound tables are for Arrghoun, and further assume that Arrghoun and Gvegh are not related.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Ispitz,

Thank you for dropping by and adding to the discussion.

As far as I know, the etymology of the word "Vargr" has never been addressed in canon, but it's pretty obviously derived from a North Germanic word for "wolf", as noted by whulorigan above, and it's highly doubtful that it's what the Vargr call themselves. Indeed, given the political and linguistic diversity of the Vargr, I'd be surprised if they had a universally accepted name for themselves.

I agree that the origin of Vargr has not been addressed as with the Aslan, and K'kree. I am more than willing to go with the idea that Vargr was used by the first Terran to encounter them.

As for the Arrghoun/Gvegh relationship, I'm inclined to think that they might be related, but we don't have enough data to be absolutely sure. Alien Module 3 is extremely unhelpful on this point. The Gvegh language family is mentioned, and Arrghoun is not listed as belonging to it. The sound frequency tables in the module are labelled simply as "Vargr Language", unspecified; is this for ancient Arrghoun, or contemporary Gvegh, or what? And are the two languages related? The module doesn't say.

In my book 320 deconstructed words is more than enough evidence for me to state Arrghoun is related to Gvegh. You are correct that page 14 uses the generic Vargr in the table title, however those tables are directly referenced to on page 7 which clearly identifies the language as Gvegh.

GURPS Traveller Alien Races 1 is, as far as I can tell, an extension of CT Alien Module 2. MT Aliens Vol. I is the only other source I have and with the review I've done they appear to use the same word generation tables as CT. Unfortunately, the review has so far indicated that only one word is Gvegh.

The Arrghoun text appears to conform to the sound frequency tables. Arrghoun could be a precursor of Gvegh (as Latin was to French), or a sister language derived from an earlier common ancestor (as Latin and Greek are from Proto-Indo-European). Or they could come from different language families altogether, and Gvegh replaced Arrghoun throughout its historical range. This last is a bit of a logical jump; to make it work, you have to assume that the sound tables are for Arrghoun, and further assume that Arrghoun and Gvegh are not related.

My guess is that there was a common language used all over Lair and when the Vargr left their home world each group took the language and changed it. However the root language is still there and a very good linguist will be needed to get to the root language.

In my book the two languages are related with Arrghoun being one of the many dialects that have fallen to the ravages of time.

 

[Carlobrand]

As far as I know, the etymology of the word "Vargr" has never been addressed in canon, but it's pretty obviously derived from a North Germanic word for "wolf", as noted by whulorigan above, and it's highly doubtful that it's what the Vargr call themselves. Indeed, given the political and linguistic diversity of the Vargr, I'd be surprised if they had a universally accepted name for themselves. ...

Weren't the Vargr first encountered by the Vilani of the First Imperium? While I agree that the game designers likely drew on Germanic for the name, within the game milieu itself it would be a bit odd to have an alien species on the other side of the Imperium from Terra trace its name to a Terran province.

AM3 refers to there being "hundreds of Vargr languages." Odds are pretty good that the Vargr similarly have hundreds of names for their species. Whether "Vargr" is one of them or was assigned by some Vilani, I haven't a clue, but it's an interesting discussion.

 

[whulorigan]

Weren't the Vargr first encountered by the Vilani of the First Imperium? While I agree that the game designers likely drew on Germanic for the name, within the game milieu itself it would be a bit odd to have an alien species on the other side of the Imperium from Terra trace its name to a Terran province.

AM3 refers to there being "hundreds of Vargr languages." Odds are pretty good that the Vargr similarly have hundreds of names for their species. Whether "Vargr" is one of them or was assigned by some Vilani, I haven't a clue, but it's an interesting discussion.

I would guess that the Vilani probably did have a name for them (either a "Vilanicized" version of a native Vargr-Dialect name, or a native-Vilani designation), but the term probably fell into disuse during or after the Rule of Man. The Vilani would not have recognized the Vargr as anything other than yet one more alien barbarian species, but the Terrans, upon encountering the Vargr, would have immediately recognized the Canine resemblance (and would have been able to put the genetic pieces together not long thereafter when Vargr DNA became available for study). The Vargr would have made a much greater impression on the Terrans than the Vilani.

The Vilani only encountered the Vargr toward the very end of the tenure of the Ziru Sirka. Whatever name they gave them was probably not long in use before the Terran defeat of the Vilani not long thereafter. The Vilani name may not have endured long enough to become "traditional" (or was at the very least easily superceded by a Terran term).

At least, that would be my guess.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Carlobrand and whulorigan,

Weren't the Vargr first encountered by the Vilani of the First Imperium? While I agree that the game designers likely drew on Germanic for the name, within the game milieu itself it would be a bit odd to have an alien species on the other side of the Imperium from Terra trace its name to a Terran province.

Gvurrdon's Adventure CT AM 3 pages 42-43 indicates that the base was run by a Zhodani trading company.

The Vilani, as whulorigan mentions and what I recall from one or more of the books, where having problems all over the place and did have contact with the Vargr while trying to put down those pesky Terrans.

Then a Terran with a background in Scandinavian/Norse languages encounter them and named them Vargr.

AM3 refers to there being "hundreds of Vargr languages." Odds are pretty good that the Vargr similarly have hundreds of names for their species. Whether "Vargr" is one of them or was assigned by some Vilani, I haven't a clue, but it's an interesting discussion.

Looking at the Zhodani and Vilani language rules and word generation tables I am not able to generate the word Vargr.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening whulorigan,

I would guess that the Vilani probably did have a name for them (either a "Vilanicized" version of a native Vargr-Dialect name, or a native-Vilani designation), but the term probably fell into disuse during or after the Rule of Man. The Vilani would not have recognized the Vargr as anything other than yet one more alien barbarian species, but the Terrans, upon encountering the Vargr, would have immediately recognized the Canine resemblance (and would have been able to put the genetic pieces together not long thereafter when Vargr DNA became available for study). The Vargr would have made a much greater impression on the Terrans than the Vilani.

As indicated in my reply to Carlobrand the Vargr of the Gvurrdon Sector per the adventure encountered the Zhodani. Unfortunately, my review of the Zhodani language appears not to be able to generate the syllable clusters for the word Vargr.

The Vilani only encountered the Vargr toward the very end of the tenure of the Ziru Sirka. Whatever name they gave them was probably not long in use before the Terran defeat of the Vilani not long thereafter. The Vilani name may not have endured long enough to become "traditional" (or was at the very least easily superceded by a Terran term).

At least, that would be my guess.

Recalling the material I have read I agree with your guess.

 

[Carlobrand]

I would guess that the Vilani probably did have a name for them (either a "Vilanicized" version of a native Vargr-Dialect name, or a native-Vilani designation), but the term probably fell into disuse during or after the Rule of Man. The Vilani would not have recognized the Vargr as anything other than yet one more alien barbarian species, but the Terrans, upon encountering the Vargr, would have immediately recognized the Canine resemblance (and would have been able to put the genetic pieces together not long thereafter when Vargr DNA became available for study). The Vargr would have made a much greater impression on the Terrans than the Vilani.

The Vilani only encountered the Vargr toward the very end of the tenure of the Ziru Sirka. Whatever name they gave them was probably not long in use before the Terran defeat of the Vilani not long thereafter. The Vilani name may not have endured long enough to become "traditional" (or was at the very least easily superceded by a Terran term).

At least, that would be my guess.

Interesting thought.

...Gvurrdon's Adventure CT AM 3 pages 42-43 indicates that the base was run by a Zhodani trading company.

The Vilani, as whulorigan mentions and what I recall from one or more of the books, where having problems all over the place and did have contact with the Vargr while trying to put down those pesky Terrans.
...

Page 4: "Vargr expansion was stopped in the trailing direction by the Windhorn Rift, a region where stellar density is insufficient to permit easy travel. This was probably a lucky thing for the Vargr, for, beyond the Windhorn, the Vilani lmperium held sway at this time. Dedicated to maintaining the status quo of the Pax Vilanica, the Vilani emperors would most likely have attempted to subdue the Vargr had they been aware of their existence, for it was accepted Imperial policy at that time that no race possessing the secret of the jump drive should be allowed to exist independently.

"As the First lmperium declined, various provincial governors with ambitions of personal advancement took to arming and outfitting 'barbarian' mercenaries from beyond the boundaries. One such governor, who controlled the area now comprising portions of Deneb, Corridor, and Provence sectors, is believed to have been the first human to have had dealings with the Vargr, probably after Vargr corsairs raided a world at the edge of his province. This governor supplied arms and equipment to a large corsair group who were employed in his bid for power. Though he was defeated, he had set a precedent; the Vargr knew about the First lmperium and were interested in the wealth of that decadent civilization; by this point in time, Vilani troubles were such that there was no question of imposing the Pax Vilanica over these 'barbarians' from beyond the Windhorn."

AM3 itself declares that the first human contact with Vargr was by the Vilani, some time very late in the First Imperium era or very early in the Interstellar Wars period - as Whulorigan points out, toward the end of the Ziru Sirka. Some of the elements in Gvurrdon's Adventure, also in AM3, make clear that Gvurrdon's contact with the Zhodani occurred in about the same era, probably very close to the time the Vargr were encountering the Vilani. This becomes in some ways a "who discovered America first" exercise, since the incidents are fairly close historically. However, the Zho didn't have contact with the Vilani until a few hundred years after, ~-2000.

There are some conflicts here. The myth is described as being in a 2500 year old Vargr tongue, but some of the names thrown about in the myth place the contact around or just before -2480, while AM4 says the Zho bumped into the Vargr in -2800, and current game time is generally some time after 1100, placing the incidents between 3.6 and 4 thousand years in the past. Possibly the text is translated from an earlier language; the crates found later are in a Vargr tongue other than Arrghoun. As to the discrepancy between AM3 and AM4, I'd tend to call it errata and side with AM3.

At any rate, the Zho and Vilani would have encountered the Vargr independently and before they encountered each other, therefore either party would have created their own independent words for Vargr or would have based their word on whatever word the local Vargr clan they encountered happened to use - which might well have been different. The idea that the Vilani word might have fallen into disuse and been replaced by a Terran word during the Rule of Man period is interesting and deserves consideration, especially as you're not finding anything that connects the word to Vilani or Zho roots and there's clear similarity to a Terran language. I agree that it's the best hypothesis so far.