Vessel Traffic Services

[rancke]

And for those who argue days, the 100d limit of the star in the Risek System(Rhylanor/Spinward Marches) is 48 hours transit from the main world at M-3. This is because the star is a red star, and the habitable zone is .2 AU out. So the star's jump shadow is much greater than the 100d limit of just the planet itself. So you would have to deal with the 20d limit of the star...~10 hours...

That's true enough, but it's also something that has been consistently ignored by every Traveller rulebook and adventure of which I'm aware. AFAIK the only adventure that actually mentions it is my own Cry "Egherz!" and Let Loose the Humans of War! (he said modestly), and sadly that was invalidated when MGT:The Spinward Marches ignored the information about Walston in TD15.

Does your Traveller Universe really have so huge an economic profit from shipping that it can afford a 20 hour round trip for a space craft(at M-3) for each craft that enters the system????

It could be a hidden trade impediment imposed on outsystem ships. Local ships carry someone with a pilot's license aboard and thus don't have to wait. That would only work for really powerful worlds and only if the notion didn't spread enough for the Imperium to clamp down on it.

IMTU I figure shipping and passenger rates by calculating how much the yearly expenses (including a modest profit) are, how many units the ship can carry in a year (which depends on how long each trip takes), and divide the latter up into the former. I may impose a random die roll to account for price fluctuations, but only if it makes the setting or the adventure more interesting.

Another thing that gets totally ignored is seasonal fluctuations. With jump masking a trip takes longer if the two worlds are on the far sides of their suns with respect to each other than when they're on the same side of their suns. Logically ships should charge more during one situation than during the other, leading to seasons and off seasons that would have all sorts of ramifications.


Hans

 

[Commander Truestar]

That's true enough, but it's also something that has been consistently ignored by every Traveller rulebook and adventure of which I'm aware. AFAIK the only adventure that actually mentions it is my own

Um, No...
Every rule book says you need to emerge 100d outside of a gravity well.
I grant you, they do not spell it out explicitly for each system, circumstance and possible issue that comes up but the GM is supposed to think for themselves.

MGT:The Spinward Marches ignored the information about Walston in TD15.

I also disagree with this statement. What is likely one of numerous errors with a Mongoose product does not constitute the repeal of a rule that is at the core of Traveller flight dynamics.

It could be a hidden trade impediment imposed on outsystem ships. Local ships carry someone with a pilot's license aboard and thus don't have to wait. That would only work for really powerful worlds and only if the notion didn't spread enough for the Imperium to clamp down on it.

Again, you can do as you will IYTU but the setting really does not support the hold over of a completely superfluous procedure that adds excessive delays in many systems, excessive costs to those receiving cargo or traveling to(because remember, this effects personal craft too) the system.
It seems to me you want this so you will justify it even though it makes no sense. IMTU, any port that tried this outside of hazardous ports(asteroids, etc) would find itself less and less visited by any merchanter who could say screw off until the port realized it's error or the populace(or local government) forced a change.

Marc

 

[rancke]

Um, No...
Every rule book says you need to emerge 100d outside of a gravity well.
I grant you, they do not spell it out explicitly for each system, circumstance and possible issue that comes up but the GM is supposed to think for themselves.

That's not what I meant. I meant that the rules do not spell out that when the world is inside a star's gravity well, the ship emerges outside the star's gravity well. For example, see the list of procedures for jumping in the back of MT:Imperial Encyclopedia. You fly out to 100 diameters of the world, you jump, you arrive at 100 diameters from the world. Not a hint of either jump shadows or jump masking.

I also disagree with this statement. What is likely one of numerous errors with a Mongoose product does not constitute the repeal of a rule that is at the core of Traveller flight dynamics.

Sorry, I was unclear. It's my adventure that was invalidated because they came up with a completely different society than the one described in TD15. IIRC there is no mention of stellar jump shadows anywhere in that book either.

Again, you can do as you will IYTU but the setting really does not support the hold over of a completely superfluous procedure that adds excessive delays in many systems, excessive costs to those receiving cargo or traveling to(because remember, this effects personal craft too) the system.

I was merely suggesting a way that it could exist in one or two star systems here and there, not as a universal feature. In fact, I specifically pointed out that it wouldn't work as a common feature.

It seems to me you want this so you will justify it even though it makes no sense. IMTU, any port that tried this outside of hazardous ports(asteroids, etc) would find itself less and less visited by any merchanter who could say screw off until the port realized it's error or the populace(or local government) forced a change.

Here I think you're wrong. The whole point of such a regulation would be to encourage foreign-flagged ships to go elsewhere and leave the trade to the local shipping. Which is why the Imperium might interfere and tell the member world that it's a no-no. However, if it's a powerful member world and a timid Imperial duke, it might get away with it.


Hans

 

[Commander Truestar]

That's not what I meant. I meant that the rules do not spell out that when the world is inside a star's gravity well, the ship emerges outside the star's gravity well.

Again, every rule book says you need to emerge outside 100d of "A Gravity Well".
None of them specify if that gravity well of a world or star or both. The rules assume you will think that through yourself. Not to be nasty but I will point out that the game Battletech does not explicitly outlaw the manning of Battlemechs by Elephants. It is the players who are responsible for thinking the rules through so they can determine how they work and which rules they will use as written, modify them, or discard them in their Traveller Universe.
So the rule says you need to emerge outside 100d of a Gravity Well. Both stars and planets have gravity wells. So both Are covered. If you, as a games master, choose to not define a system beyond it's main world(and there are a great many GM's that do not) then you can well ignore this IYTU.
But I would not expect any game system to include a full and complete description of what is explicitly written. Such a book would fill multiple CD's and more paper than could ever be worth the printing. Just as the rules for FASA's Battletech never stated explicitly that you cannot have an elephant pilot a bettlemech, you will never see more in the Traveller rules books than any publisher needs to spell out the game and to earn a proper profit in the doing

Sorry, I was unclear. It's my adventure that was invalidated because they came up with a completely different society than the one described in TD15. IIRC there is no mention of stellar jump shadows anywhere in that book either.

Again, your work is not invalidated. You simply need to use the right given all GM's to determine what details you admit or deny in your game. As I said, some GM's ignore every part of the solar system that is outside the near orbit of the visited world. You have that right too. Do not write your rules based on what I, or anyone else here, say unless you want to. Indeed, include a race of uplifted elephants and have them pilot starships It is your right as a GM.

Marc

 

[Commander Truestar]

It seems to me you want this so you will justify it even though it makes no sense. IMTU, any port that tried this outside of hazardous ports(asteroids, etc) would find itself less and less visited by any merchanter who could say screw off until the port realized it's error or the populace(or local government) forced a change.

Here I think you're wrong. The whole point of such a regulation would be to encourage foreign-flagged ships to go elsewhere and leave the trade to the local shipping. Which is why the Imperium might interfere and tell the member world that it's a no-no. However, if it's a powerful member world and a timid Imperial duke, it might get away with it.
Hans

Hans,
This can be done so much more easily through tariffs and other established trade barrier based methods. If a world wants to favor one type of shipping, it would do better to increase costs to those ships, or cargos not carried by preferred ships than establishing a huge bureaucracy and the expense it would require to create such a traffic management system.
To do this a world will need to have an entire arm of the military to enforce the laws, a traffic management system to reach out much further than standard to inform said military arm of exact movements which are improper, an organization for training and managing pilots, a civilian agency of ships and crews to transport pilots to and from such a world.

All this expense when all you need do is impose a tariff and profit from those fools who would ignore your will. Do as you want IYTU, but I am betting any and every world would rather profit than loose even more on such an issue.

Marc

 

[rancke]

Again, every rule book says you need to emerge outside 100d of "A Gravity Well".

This is not true.

"Once a starship moves to more than 100 planetary diameters from all worlds, it may activate its jump drive..." [Book 2, p. 1]​

And before you point out that "all worlds" can be construed to mean not just a planet and its moons but also the sun, I agree, but it is not spelled out. As in "explicitly mentioned". I agree that it is implicit, but I'm not aware of any rule or adventure that says so.

None of them specify if that gravity well of a world or star or both.

"Planetary diameters".

The rules assume you will think that through yourself.

You can assume that, if you like. I think it's far more likely no one thought about it. It seems to me that if someone had thought about it, it would have been worth a line or two or text to point out that in half the systems, in-system transit time would include additional time to move from 100 solar diameters to 100 planetary diameters.

It is the players who are responsible for thinking the rules through so they can determine how they work and which rules they will use as written, modify them, or discard them in their Traveller Universe.

I think you're totally wrong about that, but what difference does it make? I said that solar jump limits were consistently ignored. It doesn't really affect the truth value of that statement whether the omission was because no one thought about mentioning it or because they spent days deliberating the point and finally decided not to.

Now, if you can provided me with a reference to a set of the early Traveller rules or an adventure that point out the ramifications of solar jump limits, please do. I say 'early', because GT does mention it (and mentions jump masking to boot) and MGT mentions them too (p. 141), even if there's no mention of the ramifications in terms of added travel time.

But I would not expect any game system to include a full and complete description of what is explicitly written.

Nor would I, but I would say that a rule that flat out states that a jump takes one week in jump space and one week travelling to and from the world plus spending 5-6 six days on the world qualifies as ignoring solar jump limits.

Again, your work is not invalidated.

I think it was. I'm pretty sure any author who submitted an adventure set on Walston and based on the data presented in TD15 and/or my adventure would have it rejected by Mongoose. Unless Matt could be persuaded to amend/retcon the description of Walston in MGT:The Spinward Marches, and I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

You simply need to use the right given all GM's to determine what details you admit or deny in your game. As I said, some GM's ignore every part of the solar system that is outside the near orbit of the visited world. You have that right too. Do not write your rules based on what I, or anyone else here, say unless you want to. Indeed, include a race of uplifted elephants and have them pilot starships It is your right as a GM.

That it is. It's also completely irrelevant to the discussion. I'm not discussing my rules or my TU. I'm discussing Traveller rules and the OTU. See, right there where I mention "...every Traveller rulebook and adventure of which I'm aware...".


Hans

 

[rancke]

This can be done so much more easily through tariffs and other established trade barrier based methods.

But that would be tariffs or other well-known trade barrier methods, specifically barred by Imperial edicts. This is a safety measure, not barred by Imperial regulations -- unless an Imperial authority decides that it's not really intended as a safety measure but as a trade impediment.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

That it is. It's also completely irrelevant to the discussion. I'm not discussing my rules or my TU. I'm discussing Traveller rules and the OTU. See, right there where I mention "...every Traveller rulebook and adventure of which I'm aware...".

Megatraveller Referee's Companion ( 1988 )
" Jump points are locations at which it is possible to enter jump safely. By definition, a jump point is any point at least 100 diameters out from every star, planet and satelite in the system." pg.20

 

[aramis]

And, as of 2009, the MT RC was moved to being a core rulebook. (See Drivethroughrpg.com)

 

[Ishmael]

Then as MGT is the most recently published core rulebook, whatever it says *is* the OTU position on this matter. At least until a later publication changes it yet again.

Or is it that the MT RC's position remains until overwritten?
Has it been changed since 2009 in the OTU?

If stars are not considered, then what explanation is there as it'd imply that gravity wells are not the cause of misjumps.
*That* ought to be interesting to hear.

 

[far-trader]

Only having been skimming this thread I'm not sure how this applies or if my answer helps much but I will address this point:

Then as MGT is the most recently published core rulebook, whatever it says *is* the OTU position on this matter.

Not quite, as I understand it. It's confusing because Mongoose Traveller is Generic not OTU. They do some presumably OTU supplements, and some non-OTU supplements, but the rules are Generic and may include non-OTU elements.

If Mongoose Traveller publishes something that is not OTU or contradicts the OTU then what they (Mongoose) have in fact published is Generic Traveller, not OTU Traveller.

Example:

Mongoose Traveller publishes something that says "Jumps may be initiated anywhere with no problem, even on the ground within the atmosphere of a planet. Jumps may also be terminated in a like fashion. It is possible for a ship to make a jump from the Downport of one world directly to the Downport of another world."

That would not be OTU and therefore it would be an alternate rule. Under the Generic Traveller open frame concept. So the OTU rules on jumping would not be invalidated.

Again, the way I understand it, the way it's been explained.

Further, OTU (Official Traveller Universe, aka The Imperium et al) to most of us is apparently OTU (Original Traveller Universe, aka The Imperium et al) to Mongoose, who call the OTU (Official Traveller Universe, aka Generic Traveller) whatever they decide to publish. Just to heap more confusion on the pile.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

T5 states that any object larger than the ship can cause a misjump.

 

[Ishmael]

Ah..as clear as mud.
MGT is generic, just like the LBB's until GDW started publishing fluff add-ons like Mongoose does with the "Third Imperium" label.
Using that information, then it might be considered that CT books 4 through 8 were 'generic' rule books and thus not OTU? They did not explicitly describe the Imperium's fluff except by how rules might affect such fluff...just like MGT's non-OTU additions might affect their "Third Imperium" label?

Mongoose has a publishing license from Marc Miller to produce Traveller and Third Imperium materials, therefore what they publish IS canon until such time as they lose the license and either their materials are overwritten or Marc Miller decides to say that it was no good after all. At least that is my understanding based on what I've heard a publishing license means.

But this all misses the point, eh?
MT RC WAS a core OTU rulebook until 2009 according to Aramis and it was explicit about the 100 diameter rule being applied to stars as well as worlds. Given the published date of 1988, then stellar diameters have been the rule in the OTU for at least 21 years. If the 100 stellar diameter rule in no longer valid, then where, AFTER 2009, is this stated in any accepted core rulebook. What invalidated that rule?
BTW, FF&S1 specifically mentions gravty effects causing misjumps as does MT SOM (not canon, I know ).

Oh well...back to the topic.

HERE is the main reason stars must be considered in the 100D rules for jump points!
-------------------------------------------------------
If it is invalidated, then explain how a world's gravity well affects jump, while a star's does not.
Or is the affect of gravity wells on jump invalidated too? and if so, by what? THAT ought to start up the old 'empty hex jump" brawl up again!
BTW, FF&S1 specifically mentions gravity perturbation effects causing misjumps as does MT SOM (not canon, I know ).
-------------------------------------------------------

You know, it sure would be nicer if the Official OTU was described definitively within a single source and not spread through many contradictory locations.
As it stands now, the OTU is horribly unfocused; Big details are easy to make out, but niggling details are too fuzzy to pin down with any certainty. Small wonder the OTU canon is the source of so much conflict.

 

[rancke]

Megatraveller Referee's Companion ( 1988 )
" Jump points are locations at which it is possible to enter jump safely. By definition, a jump point is any point at least 100 diameters out from every star, planet and satelite in the system." pg.20

Thenk you. I wasn't aware of that quote. Though as I also said, the ramifications are not explored. Check out the last two pages of MT:Imperial Encyclopedia.


Hans

 

[rancke]

If stars are not considered, then what explanation is there as it'd imply that gravity wells are not the cause of misjumps.
*That* ought to be interesting to hear.

I'm not saying that solar gravity wells shouldn't be considered, or even that the rules couldn't be interpreted to include them (And as was pointed out to me above, was included in MT). I'm saying that the ramifications of this have been consistently ignored.

Aside: There are actually some very good reasons to go with tidal force instead of gravity as the limiting factor, but Marc Miller does not agree, and what he says goes, so 100 diameters it is, regardless of the density of the object.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

I can understand why they were ignored; most players only care about going to a world in the habital zone, which is outside the solar 100d line. So it could be ignored 99% of the time without concern. It's only for rare special cases where the main world is within 100d of the star that it'd have mattered.

I advocate using gravitational strength as the limit ( .00001g..I forget, I'd have to dig out notes again. Whatever the strength of gravity is at 100d for and earth type world ), but that has its own ramifications that would really screw with the way the OTU is set up. The tidal limits would, for a typical system, extend way out past the habital zone...out to Mars' orbit iirc.
In-system travel would take a good chunk of time ( IMTU, I use reaction drives ) just to get to the main world from a jump point.
There would also be 'plateaus' of little/no gravitational forces at certain distances between the star and the world where their gravities would cancel each other out. These can be nice choke points for combat purposes.

 

[rancke]

I can understand why they were ignored; most players only care about going to a world in the habital zone, which is outside the solar 100d line. So it could be ignored 99% of the time without concern. It's only for rare special cases where the main world is within 100d of the star that it'd have mattered.

Except that for class V stars the habitable zones of half the Gs, all the Ks and all the Ms are inside the 100 solar diameters[*]. So it's something like half the time (or 1/3rd... I haven't actually checked out the figures) that ignoring it makes a difference eto the travel time.

[*] Well... according to the Traveller versions that use the Book 6 rules for system-building, Class M stars don't have orbits in the habitable zone -- the innermost orbit is already in the outer zone.​

Hans

 

[aramis]

Then as MGT is the most recently published core rulebook, whatever it says *is* the OTU position on this matter. At least until a later publication changes it yet again.

Or is it that the MT RC's position remains until overwritten?
Has it been changed since 2009 in the OTU?

If stars are not considered, then what explanation is there as it'd imply that gravity wells are not the cause of misjumps.
*That* ought to be interesting to hear.

Actually, the MGT rulebooks, except for those in 3I livery, do NOT describe the "Original Traveller Universe" but are, per Mongoose, a generic ruleset which can be used to play in the "Original Traveller Universe."

 

[Ishmael]

generic rulebooks which can be used to play the OTU ( or any ATU a player might come up with )

oh..like the LBB's
generic rulebooks which can be used to play the OTU ( or any ATU a player might come up with )

I'm so glad the difference has been made clear
sheesh

 

[aramis]

generic rulebooks which can be used to play the OTU ( or any ATU a player might come up with )

oh..like the LBB's
generic rulebooks which can be used to play the OTU ( or any ATU a player might come up with )

I'm so glad the difference has been made clear
sheesh

the OTU grows out of the CT rules. The OTU is essentially the universe described by the CT rules, with some additional fluff added in the adventures, boxed sets, and magazines.

MGT rules describe a very different universe. (the LL details table alone utterly altars the nature of the setting, and the difference in atmosphere generation makes the worlds considerably different... the OTU worlds are generated by a CT process, while the MGT rules have a different process.