OTU Only: Vland Imperium

[Timerover51]

I came across this while going through Library Data, and it appears both in the Classic Library Data Supplement and also Mongoose Library Data, so I assume that it is as official and canonical as it can be.

Finally, the Imperium took notice, and dispatched major fleet elements to the area, but the time for action had passed. Terran invention of the jump-3 drive made the ninth war a crushing victory for Terra and forced the Imperium to relinquish most of the Solomani Rim.

From this it appears that the Vland Imperium was limited to Jump-1 and Jump-2 drives. The questions that follow are based on this.

1. Did Vland only have Jump-1 and Jump-2 ships?

2. How long does it take to get from Vland to the vicinity of Terra at Jump-2?

3. Is there a route to Terra from Vland which only requires Jump-1 and Jump-2?

There is also a problem with this idea of limiting Vland to Jump-2, as looking at the Tonnage-Drive Table in Starter Traveller (which I have on my computer), Jump Drives F and G will give you Jump-3 in a 400 dTon ship verses Jump-2 in a 600 dTon Ship, while Jump Drive H will give Jump-4 in a 400 dTon ship verses Jump-2 in a 600 dTon ship. Even in a Small Ship universe, those are not very big ships. The listed Drives are available at Tech Level 10, which I assume represents the Vland Imperium Tech Level at a minimum.

 

[GypsyComet]

Yes, the Ziru Sirka was limited to Jump 2. They were TL11.

It takes a very long time to get from Vland to the Rim. The distance is roughly four full sectors, or 160 parsecs. Under absolutely ideal conditions and routes, that's 80 jumps.

There is certainly at least one route that needs no more than J2, but the center of the Imperium does need J2. Unlike the Spinward Marches, the central area is clumpy, with two parsec gaps between the clumps and clusters.

As for the drives thing, the size of the drive is only part of the equation. You still must have the right computer and software to drive the longer jumps, and the Vilani had neither.

 

[McPerth]

I came across this while going through Library Data, and it appears both in the Classic Library Data Supplement and also Mongoose Library Data, so I assume that it is as official and canonical as it can be.



From this it appears that the Vland Imperium was limited to Jump-1 and Jump-2 drives. The questions that follow are based on this.

1. Did Vland only have Jump-1 and Jump-2 ships?

According most oficial data, yes. Vilani Imperim only reached TL 11, and this limited them to jump 2.

2. How long does it take to get from Vland to the vicinity of Terra at Jump-2?

3. Is there a route to Terra from Vland which only requires Jump-1 and Jump-2?

I'd had to study it in the Traveller Map, but I'd be surprised if there is not such a route (even if not a straight one) from Vland to Terra at jump 2. But in any case, remember is not difficult for a J2 ship to carry fuel for 2 consecutive jumps...

There is also a problem with this idea of limiting Vland to Jump-2, as looking at the Tonnage-Drive Table in Starter Traveller (which I have on my computer), Jump Drives F and G will give you Jump-3 in a 400 dTon ship verses Jump-2 in a 600 dTon Ship, while Jump Drive H will give Jump-4 in a 400 dTon ship verses Jump-2 in a 600 dTon ship. Even in a Small Ship universe, those are not very big ships. The listed Drives are available at Tech Level 10, which I assume represents the Vland Imperium Tech Level at a minimum.

This is one of the points Bk2 and Bk5 ships differ, as in Bk2 rules jump is not limited by TL, only is a matter of drive/tonnage ratio (as table, not a true ratio) and the only other limit is for computers, while in Bk5 there are hard limits according to TL.

 

[GypsyComet]

This is one of the points Bk2 and Bk5 ships differ, as in Bk2 rules jump is not limited by TL, only is a matter of drive/tonnage ratio (as table, not a true ratio) and the only other limit is for computers, while in Bk5 there are hard limits according to TL.

Book 2 and all of the rest of Traveller, really. This is one of the reasons the proto-Traveller folks can build such a different setting. There is less of the setting "baked in" (as some like to put it) to the original Books 1-3 than you might think.

 

[Timerover51]

Yes, the Ziru Sirka was limited to Jump 2. They were TL11.

It takes a very long time to get from Vland to the Rim. The distance is roughly four full sectors, or 160 parsecs. Under absolutely ideal conditions and routes, that's 80 jumps.

So, at a minimum, over a year and a half from Vland to Terra. Which means that any orders from Vland to near-Terra forces are 3 years out of date, with the same for any information. Napoleon had major problems trying to run the War in Spain from Poland, and he had only about a 2 to 3 month lag time each way. Napoleon was presumably a far superior military commander than anyone that Vland could come up with.

There is certainly at least one route that needs no more than J2, but the center of the Imperium does need J2. Unlike the Spinward Marches, the central area is clumpy, with two parsec gaps between the clumps and clusters.

As for the drives thing, the size of the drive is only part of the equation. You still must have the right computer and software to drive the longer jumps, and the Vilani had neither.

You state that Vland was Tech Level 11. Per Starter Traveller, Computer Model 4 is available at Tech Level 10, and is capable of handling Jumps up to and including 4. Reconcile that with your statement regarding Vland computers.

 

[aramis]

Book 2 and all of the rest of Traveller, really. This is one of the reasons the proto-Traveller folks can build such a different setting. There is less of the setting "baked in" (as some like to put it) to the original Books 1-3 than you might think.

The Jump Drive bakes a lot in. Its quirks are really a huge part of the feel of Traveller.

Lots of setting assumptions baked into world gen and character gen, too...

 

[GypsyComet]

You state that Vland was Tech Level 11. Per Starter Traveller, Computer Model 4 is available at Tech Level 10, and is capable of handling Jumps up to and including 4. Reconcile that with your statement regarding Vland computers.

The computers usually are ahead of the curve. It is one of those details I tend to forget precisely because they are not matched with the other TL indices.

That said, the Vilani might not have been up to TL on computers. They had rabid death machines in their legendary past and were probably culturally shy on the topic of thinking machines.

Every TL chart aside from those in GURPS (because it uses a different TL scale) places J3 at TL12. Those few editions after CT that deal with ship software index jump software to the same progression seen in CT High Guard:

Jump 1 - TL9
Jump 2 - TL11
Jump 3 - TL12
Jump 4 - TL13
Jump 5 - TL14
Jump 6 - TL15

Why the gap? I can't tell you for certain, but the Vilani tech progression documented as far back as mid-CT takes it into account. The mid-Interstellar Wars are defined by Terra developing J3 and running strategic rings around the J2 Vilani.

I'd have to look it up, but I don't think anyone else had J3, either. The Hiver-K'kree War was fought at J2, IIRC, and the first contact between the Vargr and Zhodani also likely occurred in a J2 environment.

 

[mike wightman]

Terra wasn't fighting Vland.

Earth forces were fighting against only one province (the nearest) of the vast Imperium.

But you have just rediscovered the key fact that some of the armchair admirals we have around here keep overlooking when discussing strategic combat in the OTU. The idea of a fleet admiralty issuing orders to a fleet up to three months away is ridiculous - issuing advices is much more sensible.

For a true feel of what I'm talking about play a double blind game of Fifth Frontier War - only the referee can see the game board, players know initial fleet deployment. Even that doesn't truly reflect the communication lag issue since the player has godlike omniscience of where battles are occurring as fleets encounter each other.

 

[GypsyComet]

Terra wasn't fighting Vland.

Earth forces were fighting against only one province (the nearest) of the vast Imperium.

Early on, at least. The Terrans kept carving chunks out of the Imperium.

The nature of leadership in the Vilani Empire is modeled by the old GDW game Imperium. It is worth a read and play if you can scare up a copy.

 

[mike wightman]

There are inconsistencies between the game and what became OTU history.

The definitive guide is GT:ISW.

 

[GypsyComet]

There are inconsistencies between the game and what became OTU history.

Which I would expect given when the game was written.

The definitive guide is GT:ISW.

Warts and all. Monkey men with Plant Empathy? Really?

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

So, at a minimum, over a year and a half from Vland to Terra. Which means that any orders from Vland to near-Terra forces are 3 years out of date, with the same for any information. Napoleon had major problems trying to run the War in Spain from Poland, and he had only about a 2 to 3 month lag time each way. Napoleon was presumably a far superior military commander than anyone that Vland could come up with.

which rather implies that the centre for co-ordination for the war effort against Terra was much closer. My understanding was the local forces were controlled form the provincial capital of Dingir, at least until that was captured in the 8th war.

I think its important to note that the first 8 wars, spanning 150 years of conflict, happened entirely in the Sol and Dingir subsectors, at least according to the wiki, and GT: IW which it quotes. it mostly happened in a very small autographical area.

 

[rancke]

I think its important to note that the first 8 wars, spanning 150 years of conflict, happened entirely in the Sol and Dingir subsectors, at least according to the wiki, and GT: IW which it quotes. it mostly happened in a very small autographical area.

And even then Jon felt it necessary to introduce a Vilani subculture that detested the Imperium and welcomed the Terrans as liberators. Nusku, the first major Vilani world conquered by the Confederation, was 'terranified' in record time.


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

And even then Jon felt it necessary to introduce a Vilani subculture that detested the Imperium and welcomed the Terrans as liberators. Nusku, the first major Vilani world conquered by the Confederation, was 'terranified' in record time.

Vilani cultural values include emphasis on consensus and community-appropriate action. All it would take, so far from Vland, is a couple ham-handed, egotistical local Bureau chiefs to tilt into demagoguery, and the populace will start to get twitchy.

That and Terrans have a talent for propaganda.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

And even then Jon felt it necessary to introduce a Vilani subculture that detested the Imperium and welcomed the Terrans as liberators. Nusku, the first major Vilani world conquered by the Confederation, was 'terranified' in record time.


Hans

Vilani cultural values include emphasis on consensus and community-appropriate action. All it would take, so far from Vland, is a couple ham-handed, egotistical local Bureau chiefs to tilt into demagoguery, and the populace will start to get twitchy.

That and Terrans have a talent for propaganda.

bear in mind the 18 month time delay cuts both ways. That far out, the border provinces of the vlani Imperium would, by necessity, have been effectively self governing. The local governor WAS the Imperium, for all intents and purposes. a few cruel or uncaring governors could well generate a small amount of discontent that could be exploited.

also, bear in mind the vlani only got this far rimward late in the Consolidation Wars. By the point they got to Vega and Sol, they came as conquers and subjugators . a significant proportion of the vlani population were the minor human and alien races that kicked off the Consolidation Wars in the first place. I havn't read GT:IW, but would it be a stretch to say this pro terran counterculture could be a minor human race trying to regain its independence after a thousand years of vlani rule?

in short "controlled by the Vlani Imperium" is not the same as "loyal to the Vlani Imperium"

what I never really understood was why the vlani didn't expand further coreward, deeper into what is now the Vargr Extents. they went 4 sectors rimward to sol, but barely 4 subsectors coreward?

 

[McPerth]

bear in mind the 18 month time delay cuts both ways.

I somewhat disagree in this.

In early wars, Terra was fighting near home, so comunications lines and time gaps were shorter, creating an effect like interior lines.

When the distances from capital were more equal, as the Terrans advanced, they developed J3, so reducing the time gap for the same distance, and, IIRC, Vilani surrendered before Terrans had longer lines of communications than them.

 

[Timerover51]

I assume that the references to a "GT:IW" as to something in GURPS Traveller, which I do not have, and as I detest the GURPS system, will not be getting. Is that as canonical as what was put out by GDW. If so, why?

Put simply, when you have so much so-called "canonical" material out there, I am rapidly coming to the point where "canon" is a meaningless term. Specifically, if it is not in the LBBs/Starter Traveller/The Traveller Book, it is meaningless noise.

"Canon" implies a somewhat coherent body of material, such as Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes series. Traveller is not known for coherence.

 

[rancke]

I assume that the references to a "GT:IW" as to something in GURPS Traveller, which I do not have, and as I detest the GURPS system, will not be getting.

It's worth it for the setting information alone.

Is that as canonical as what was put out by GDW. If so, why?

Because Marc Miller says so.

Put simply, when you have so much so-called "canonical" material out there, I am rapidly coming to the point where "canon" is a meaningless term. Specifically, if it is not in the LBBs/Starter Traveller/The Traveller Book, it is meaningless noise.

That's not a problem unless you want to discuss the OTU with people for whom it isn't meaningless. If you want to ignore the last 33 years' worth of Traveller developments, that's your business. Just don't expect everyone else to do the same.

"Canon" implies a somewhat coherent body of material, such as Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes series. Traveller is not known for coherence.

The Traveller canon is certainly less coherent that the Sherlock Holmes canon, as one might expect from something that has been written by seven score authors or more. It's also a good deal larger. IMO that makes it all the more useful to have an authoritative body of work to lean on. There are plenty of problems with Traveller canon. That doesn't make it useless.


Hans

 

[elbmc1969]

I assume that the references to a "GT:IW" as to something in GURPS Traveller, which I do not have, and as I detest the GURPS system, will not be getting. Is that as canonical as what was put out by GDW. If so, why?

Put simply, when you have so much so-called "canonical" material out there, I am rapidly coming to the point where "canon" is a meaningless term. Specifically, if it is not in the LBBs/Starter Traveller/The Traveller Book, it is meaningless noise.

"Canon" implies a somewhat coherent body of material, such as Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes series. Traveller is not known for coherence.

Yes, it is canon, in the sense of "approved by Marc Miller as part of the official Traveller univers."

GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars contains so much background compared to the GURPS content that there's no reason for a dislike (or hatred) of GURPS to deter you. The first 94 pages have nothing at all for GURPS. The next section is planets. It's not CT format, but it's all pretty easily converted because attributes are defined clearly. I mean, if hydrographic percentage is 92%, that's just Hydro-9. That runs through p. 120, and then it's on to generating planets. I believe that it's based on traditional Traveller methods, so substitute in at your taste.

pp. 133-158 are finally GURPS material, covering characters.

Then tech, a lot of which is background, followed by more specifically-GURPS info on tech, followed by starships, which is pretty GURPS-intensive.

pp. 228-238 cover campaigns.

So, at least 60% is purely background material. Even with no knowledge of GURPS, there's a lot of information in the character generation section to extract for any system, such as Vilani Imperial Administrative ranks, and military ranks. The various ships use the GURPS Traveller ship design system, but you can easily read of tonnage, jump capability, Gs, 50 ton missile bays, etc.

Worth getting, IMHO. If you have any interest in the Interstellar Wars era, it's essential. I think it's a fascinating era and a good product. (I have nothing else GURPS.)

 

[Timerover51]

Yes, it is canon, in the sense of "approved by Marc Miller as part of the official Traveller univers."

GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars contains so much background compared to the GURPS content that there's no reason for a dislike (or hatred) of GURPS to deter you. The first 94 pages have nothing at all for GURPS. The next section is planets. It's not CT format, but it's all pretty easily converted because attributes are defined clearly. I mean, if hydrographic percentage is 92%, that's just Hydro-9. That runs through p. 120, and then it's on to generating planets. I believe that it's based on traditional Traveller methods, so substitute in at your taste.

pp. 133-158 are finally GURPS material, covering characters.

Then tech, a lot of which is background, followed by more specifically-GURPS info on tech, followed by starships, which is pretty GURPS-intensive.

pp. 228-238 cover campaigns.

So, at least 60% is purely background material. Even with no knowledge of GURPS, there's a lot of information in the character generation section to extract for any system, such as Vilani Imperial Administrative ranks, and military ranks. The various ships use the GURPS Traveller ship design system, but you can easily read of tonnage, jump capability, Gs, 50 ton missile bays, etc.

Worth getting, IMHO. If you have any interest in the Interstellar Wars era, it's essential. I think it's a fascinating era and a good product. (I have nothing else GURPS.)

I have ZERO interest in interstellar wars, but as I was thoroughly chewed up in another thread for expressing that opinion, I will not comment further.