OTU Only: Vland Imperium
- Thread starter Timerover51
- Start date
Just because a technology is possible is no guarantee that it is actually developed at any specific time in any particular universe. In the OTU these prototypes just weren't developed as early as they could have been.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
This is one of the silliest new rules in T5.
It has no real world examples and it has ridiculous unintended consequences.
It may not be so silly if you asume this rule to be mainly for planets that already have the theoretical knowledge. To give you an example, this rule could allow a TL 12 planet in Imperium to build experimental TL 15 stuff (with any penalties it may have) by themselves.
I agree with you if it means that a TL 15 planet in 3I may build experimental TL 18 stuff.
As for those prototypes, I'd allow at maximum to build them one TL higher, as MgT allows (or at the specific TL if using something like the TL profile given in MT:WBH)
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That's not the way the rule is presented nor is it how it works in the real world.
In a steampunk like alternative universe you may have Victorian scientists building experimental fusion reactors and air/rafts, but in the 'harder' sci-fi of the OTU this sort of silliness has no place.
In a steampunk like alternative universe you may have Victorian scientists building experimental fusion reactors and air/rafts, but in the 'harder' sci-fi of the OTU this sort of silliness has no place.
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Anything more (or rather, less) than T-1 seems very unlikely to me, unless by 'experimental' you mean 'not in any way practical', like Hero's steam 'engine' (Which is four TLs before the steam engine 
o
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IMO you need one or more T-1 technologies to build a T device. That's part of my conception of tech level; if you could build it with nothing but T-2 technologies, it would be a T-1 device.
Hans
o.IMO you need one or more T-1 technologies to build a T device. That's part of my conception of tech level; if you could build it with nothing but T-2 technologies, it would be a T-1 device.
Hans
Isn't the OTU a "subset" of the possible range of settings allowed by T5? Stated reflexively, is T5 an intentional "superset" of setting possibilities relative to the OTU?
Theophilus
SOC-13
There are other factors besides the J-2 vs J-3.
1. The Terran's developed Meson gun technology.
2. The size limit's on ships due to Tech level: Vland at TL 11 was limited to a maximum ship size of 99,999 ton's, Larger ship's (Size R) required Computer 6/ TL12.
It seems from all the canon sources that the Vlani ignored the Terrans, and rightly so, what can one world, with mostly TL9-10 ships do to an empire with thousand of worlds and tens of thousands of ships?
Then various governors hid their defeats and losses until it was too late.
The Vlani had only encountered Meson gun's at Sabmiqys, which they named Gashukubi (certain death). Imagine the fear when the Terrans built larger ships equipped with the "certain death" weapon. They had no clue what they were facing.
And yet even at this point, if the Vlani fleets had massed, they would have overwhelmed the Terrans. I submit it was fear, and the inability to cope with the "new" that doomed the Vlani, not J-3 drives.
salochin999
SOC-13
I'm fine with the prototype idea personally. If you take Classic's four drive letters per TL then the prototype would just be the first drive letter of the next TL so not that big a leap
(Or if your setting was in the middle of a TL then it would be the next drive letter up.)
IMTU I take jump-1 at TL9 to be that i.e. Jump-1 is actually TL10 but a prototype drive A is available at the end of TL9. I'd make prototype engines be twice the size or something so
prototype A 20 tons instead of 10
prototype E 60 tons instead of 30
prototype J 100 tons instead of 50
etc
Also say it takes a navigator-4 to compensate for the computer program being too low.
#
On the broader question though, setting games where Jump-1 and Jump-2 is all there is can create interesting geography e.g. Vland has a huge number of systems they can reach with J-1 but with J-1 they're connected in odd spirals rather than concentric rings (which I like personally).
Players in a prototype J-2 ship in a universe with a J-1 empire is perfect for an explorer type game especially if you say that you can't jump from or into (except by accident) deep space* because you need mass at each end to do the navigation calcs.
(*This is early exploration so if that's not canon you can say they figured out how to jump to deep space later.)
The thing about doing this is you don't need a huge map to have your frontier. The home world may have a number of J-2 systems they can't reach as well as a chain of J-1s in other directions they have already colonized (Vland is a good example of this kind of layout).
(Or if your setting was in the middle of a TL then it would be the next drive letter up.)
IMTU I take jump-1 at TL9 to be that i.e. Jump-1 is actually TL10 but a prototype drive A is available at the end of TL9. I'd make prototype engines be twice the size or something so
prototype A 20 tons instead of 10
prototype E 60 tons instead of 30
prototype J 100 tons instead of 50
etc
Also say it takes a navigator-4 to compensate for the computer program being too low.
#
On the broader question though, setting games where Jump-1 and Jump-2 is all there is can create interesting geography e.g. Vland has a huge number of systems they can reach with J-1 but with J-1 they're connected in odd spirals rather than concentric rings (which I like personally).
Players in a prototype J-2 ship in a universe with a J-1 empire is perfect for an explorer type game especially if you say that you can't jump from or into (except by accident) deep space* because you need mass at each end to do the navigation calcs.
(*This is early exploration so if that's not canon you can say they figured out how to jump to deep space later.)
The thing about doing this is you don't need a huge map to have your frontier. The home world may have a number of J-2 systems they can't reach as well as a chain of J-1s in other directions they have already colonized (Vland is a good example of this kind of layout).
right, that is why the vilani cultural exception (hyper conservatism as I understand it) was mentionned in my post. A linear "en bloc" approach does not fit RW. Mention were made here of TL=J and that is and should properly be subjected to the interpretation you suggest: never presume that a TL involve the dev. and availability of everything possible at that TL.
have fun
Selandia
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Hmmm, amazing what you find when you look at maps. I checked the Solomani Rim supplement, and discovered that Terra has no Jump-1 stars, only Jump-2 or higher. So for Terra to start expanding in terms of interstellar operations, it either used a Jump-1 ship with fuel for two consecutive jumps, one in Deep Space, or they had to wait until Jump-2 was around. Interesting. Now I am tempted to see if there really is a Jump-2 only route from Vland to Terra. If there is, it is not a terribly direct one.
Explained in Rim of Fire and Interstellar Wars. The Terrans located a brown dwarf halfway between Terra and Bernard's Star.
Hans
Hi,
Not sure if I'm disagreeing with you , or not, but the TL15 Imperium did experiment with reverse engineered black globe generators and antimatter.
(Not sure which TL's these are 'normal' at).
Regards
David
The Ancient black globes that the Imperium worked with were TL 19 or 20 or 22, something like that. The prototypes they developed for testing in the Kinunirs were TL15.
Hans
Frankymole
SOC-12
And if they missed that, they could have just carried a double load of fuel anyway (and what about refuelling tenders? Would such things be possible?)
They couldn't... the early Terran drives couldn't (for whatever reason) make jumps to/from deep space. Perhaps that's the difference between true TL9 and TL10 JDrives?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Neither could the much more mature Vilani jump 1 and jump 2 drives.
Empty hex jump breakthrough occurs sometime during the Solomani/Aslan conflict in the Dark Nebula era.
Empty hex jump breakthrough occurs sometime during the Solomani/Aslan conflict in the Dark Nebula era.
The attempted explanation for various facts about the Interstellar Wars (basically that neither the Terrans nor the Vilani tried to bypass the other side's planetary defenses by jumping in behind them) is that prior to late in the Long Night, calculating a jump required a planet-sized object at each end of the jump.
Unfortunately, there are other historical facts that this causes problems with, like how the Vilani got away from the Vilani Main while they still had only J1.
My handwave is that jumps to and from empty space were possible, but took a very long time to calculate, making them doable for scout vessels and other single ships, but unsuitable for fleet operations. This is not canon.
Hans
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
If all Terra had to start with are Jump-1 drives, and they could not jump to deep space, how did they expand? There are no stars in the Solomani Rim supplement within one parsec of Terra. And not that many within Jump-2.
