Warp Drive Poll

[Sifu Blackirish]

Sifu strolls in...

Ah yes, alternatives to the 'standard' jump drive.

IMTU there are G-space drives. I turned the standard TRAVELLER drives on their head and imposed fuel hungry spacious drives at first, then a shrinking of size and fuel requirements as expertise is obtained.

I did some sort of numerical analysis years ago, and found to my surprise, that a TRAVELLER jump-6 is close to the equivalent of 1,000 times the speed of light?

If I calculated it right, that means warp drive craft are hopelessly slow, with their only advantage is being able to turn the field off at will without ill effect. Jump drive craft may be undetectable to sensors available on warp drive systems, or vice versa.

 

[Timerover51]

I am not sure if this would constitute a Warp Drive, but if I use something besides standard or maybe modified Traveller Jump Drive, I use the hyperspace drive from H. Beam Piper's books, at either one light year in 60 hours or one light year per hour. I lean to the one light year in 60 hours.

 

[aramis]

I am not sure if this would constitute a Warp Drive, but if I use something besides standard or maybe modified Traveller Jump Drive, I use the hyperspace drive from H. Beam Piper's books, at either one light year in 60 hours or one light year per hour. I lean to the one light year in 60 hours.

The difference between hyperspace and warp is that, in warp, you are still present in the "normal-space" universe using some science fiction rationale to avoid the C-limit, while hyperspace, classically, is an alternate universe with a different value for maximum speeds and/or a shorter distance between corresponding points than the distance in n-space.

Traveller's Jump drive is a subset of a hyperspace drive.

So, if you can still see into (and be seen from after passing) n-space, its a warp drive. If not, then it's a hyperspace drive. Either way, it eliminates a lot of the issues with Jump Drive's rationale.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Ah yes, alternatives to the 'standard' jump drive.

IMTU there are G-space drives. I turned the standard TRAVELLER drives on their head and imposed fuel hungry spacious drives at first, then a shrinking of size and fuel requirements as expertise is obtained.

I did some sort of numerical analysis years ago, and found to my surprise, that a TRAVELLER jump-6 is close to the equivalent of 1,000 times the speed of light?

If I calculated it right, that means warp drive craft are hopelessly slow, with their only advantage is being able to turn the field off at will without ill effect. Jump drive craft may be undetectable to sensors available on warp drive systems, or vice versa.

It's a little more basic than that. "Jump" is the Traveller generic term for all FTL transport via a space craft of some kind, as per the rules in the classic books.

Having said that, "jump" has taken on a life of its own, so to speak. So much so that people now consider it a specific type of FTL kind of drive.

I actually broached this subject some years back, and had actually forgotten the old rules myself, but I thought it might be worth discussing.

My issue with Jump drive was that in classic Trek FTL battles took place. But, suddenly in The Next Generation Trek that's impossible. So it is that you can't have "jump battles", for lack of a better term. Which to me is okay, but it denies possibilities for adventuring. In terms of Traveller OTU canonicity, I actually want to keep the status quo, but, if you're going to simulate warp speed battled, then you need some kind of fudge factor.

It may be a realm for house rules to take care of. I'm not really sure. The stuff I'm writing for the OTU doesn't involve too many facets of jump, other than to travel from one system to the next. And I'm actually okay with that. But, others might have a different opinion.

 

[Timerover51]

I actually have no problems with the Jump Drive rational, as I always viewed is as basically generating a "worm hole" around the ship, with the distance of the Jump based on how much energy you put into the initial creation.

I am just leaning towards using something like a hyperspace drive to give ships both more range and also plug in more of a time factor into space travel.

 

[McPerth]

A side effect form jump/teleport/warp points (and to lesser effect may also affect hiperspace, depending on how real space interferes with it) vs warp (understood as FTL travel in real space) that would alter the setting is that in any of those FTL systems but warp, while you may reach other star systems, you use not to have any idea about what's between those systems, while if FTL is reached through warp drives, you must cross this (assumed) empty space, so you know if there's anything there (at least for travelled routes).

 

[aramis]

A side effect form jump/teleport/warp points (and to lesser effect may also affect hiperspace, depending on how real space interferes with it) vs warp (understood as FTL travel in real space) that would alter the setting is that in any of those FTL systems but warp, while you may reach other star systems, you use not to have any idea about what's between those systems, while if FTL is reached through warp drives, you must cross this (assumed) empty space, so you know if there's anything there (at least for travelled routes).

Some hyperdrive systems also have that.

Specifically, in the Star Wars universe, massive objects have a "mass shadow" in hyperspace that disrupts transit, violently at times.

 

[HG_B]

Star trek warp drive is the Speed of Plot. That is if the data is being gleaned from the series & various movies...

 

[aramis]

Star trek warp drive is the Speed of Plot. That is if the data is being gleaned from the series & various movies...

A quibble...

A couple of the voiceover log entries in TOS mention specific velocities - always using the V=WF^3.

So it's the distances that vary by the plot, not the speeds.

 

[whulorigan]

A quibble...

A couple of the voiceover log entries in TOS mention specific velocities - always using the V=WF^3.

So it's the distances that vary by the plot, not the speeds.

An easy enough "handwave-fix" is to suggest that the "WF³" is merely the output produced by the warp-engines, but that the actual effective "speed" also depends upon an additional coefficient related to the local spacetime geometry.

One TOS episode ("That Which Survives") subtly alludes to this in Spock's calculations to get the Enterprise back to the planet they were hurled away from.

 

[tim_manley]

Jump drives per the standard rules make star systems very important. Fuelling is a huge requirement and you can't jump to empty space unless you still maintain enough fuel to jump again. This makes the system the "lynch pin" of any travel or combat strategy. Secure the gas giant and you secure your ship's fuel.

Changing this changes the nature and feel of this type of environment.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Haven't read the whole thread, so please pardon if this has already been brought up...

Some warp systems such as 2300AD's stutterwarp make links between stars important by limiting the distance that the drive can operate without entering a significant (usually planetary) gravity well to discharge a "gravitic buildup". In fact, 2300AD has quite elaborate rules on this to make it extremely difficult for players (those sneaky connivers!) to get around the limit in any way.

I don't see it as quite such a game buster to allow exceptional efforts to get around the distance limits to some degree - for example, mounting double drives, each sufficient alone, and using one for the first leg and then switching to the other for a second leg. My means of controlling this is just in the size of the necessary drives plus fuel; I'm aiming for compatibility with standard T-5 designs, with the exception that higher Jump numbers will give higher speed in Mumble Drive, rather than extended jump distance (since there is no "jump" with Mumble Drive). However, due to the tonnages required, a ship that carries drives to make two legs without stopping to discharge will barely have room for any payload, imposing a natural limit. Those ships might be used for exploring, but hardly for regular/profitable commerce.

 

[tim_manley]

I don't see it as quite such a game buster

No, not a game buster, just changes the environment, that's all. Anyone can create any type of game environment they want, there is no right way.

 

[SpaceBadger]

No, not a game buster, just changes the environment, that's all. Anyone can create any type of game environment they want, there is no right way.

In the 2300AD setting, it does break the setting's history of exploration of the Arms of settlement, which depends on some pretty strict limits on distance of travel. I'll be using it in my own ATU, so not such a problem.

 

[tim_manley]

In the 2300AD setting, it does break the setting's history of exploration of the Arms of settlement, which depends on some pretty strict limits on distance of travel. I'll be using it in my own ATU, so not such a problem.

Never played 2300, so can't comment on it's mechanics. I view RPG rules as one of two types: A campaign game (where the setting is integrated as the ruleset, which I think 2300 is) and a sandbox game (where the rules are set and work sans any setting, which is what CT is).

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Option 3, since it is closer in some ways to what I am used to in Traveller.

 

[Straybow]

I chose option 4. No reason to limit it to only those three choices.

 

[kilemall]

.5 LY per 'j-rating' per day.

1% tonnage x 'j-rating' used squared per day.

So a J-1 ship would use 6+ days to go a parsec at about 7% fuel tonnage.

A J-6 ship could cover the distance in something like 1.25 days with 45% fuel tonnage.

Comms goes faster, especially x-boat like setups. Fast ships are thirstier and take more time or logistics to support, so actually less skipping around intervening systems.

J-1 would not be a barrier to large rifts, in fact that would likely be desirable to make it across without refueling. They would also have the widest range to go anywhere on one fueling, albeit slowly.

Ships would be designed for speed or endurance situations for their intended service.

J-2 would be a sweet spot for reasonable freight speed, and J-4 for express/fast passenger service.

Turns a lot of enviornmental assumptions on their head- any interstellar polity or force that is 'The Man' can get comms out fast, but have to do a lot of hurry up and wait, and might actually be a more resource stressed enviornment to manage.

A speed and distance surcharge would definitely have to be built in to any rates.

On a more general note, any warp alternative has to determine if there is a 10D/100D/1000D limit to their use, and if course can be changed once the warp is underway.

 

[atpollard]

[m;] Poll closed because the counter broke in one of the board upgrades.


Feel free to start a new poll.[/m;]