Was the Rebellion as a setting sustainable?

[Iracundus]

Just looking purely at the Rebellion (so forget about Virus), could it have gone on indefinitely? By that I mean the Imperium fracturing into a bunch of smaller sized states, and these states enduring generations into the future as separate entities, maybe some still nominally claiming the now meaningless title of Emperor and sometimes sparring. It could be a bit like post-Roman Europe or China's Warring States, or like Battletech's Succession Wars.

I admit I am a newbie so this may have all been hashed out years ago or a flamebait topic before but I am interested in knowing more about this particular era (and why some seem to hate it so). Obviously for those that liked a monolithic stable Imperium they would dislike it. I would think that for those that like their pockets of safe space, the cores of each Rebellion state could still give that feel, while those that want more conflict can go to the edges or space between the states.

Note: I am talking only of the Rebellion and only in terms of setting, not rules. So no Virus, no real world issues of layout, errata, or clunky rules.

 

[GypsyComet]

Some of the factions started employing black war/salted earth tactics very early, so the pace of the early Rebellion was not sustainable. Hard Times could have conceivably gone on for some time beyond the two or so years it did, but even 12 years in there was enough fire in the bellies of several faction leaders that they would have continued to snipe and ravage until someone got in a kill shot, knocking the number of factions down one by one.

Note that while the K'kree (more likely the Lords of Thunder) failed in their gambit in Ley in 1128, without the end that Virus brought they would have tried again once Ley started to show weakness. Eventually Ley would have been alone, as Antares, the one faction likely to provide aid against an outside threat from that direction threw in its lot with the Julians, and the Luriani have loooong memories when it comes to being threatened. A Julian/Antares coalition would probably not get the time of day from the Luriani of Ley, leaving them to fend off every attempt the K'kree made. Eventually that wall would have failed, and the Dominate War would have come.

Even before the reason was settled, the MT news was depicting the Zhodani Consulate in uproar, so the region behind the Claw was going to change one way or other.

MT coverage of the Solomani and Heirate front with Daibei, Margaret, and (technically) Lucan was light after the initial set up, but appeared to stabilize fairly quickly. The Solomani and Vegan mutual dislike was not going to end well assuming the Solomani could afford to concentrate on them, so the "dynamically stable" fronts in that region would be delicate to outside influence. If Lucan decides to pay some attention to the area, or "needs" those fleets to squash Dulinor, the stability collapses.

The short answer is that war as a setting could have been stretched out a few more years, but the set up of the 1116 to 1120 period would cease to be a useful starting point for defining the combatants by 1135.

 

[aramis]

Just looking purely at the Rebellion (so forget about Virus), could it have gone on indefinitely? By that I mean the Imperium fracturing into a bunch of smaller sized states, and these states enduring generations into the future as separate entities, maybe some still nominally claiming the now meaningless title of Emperor and sometimes sparring. It could be a bit like post-Roman Europe or China's Warring States, or like Battletech's Succession Wars.

I admit I am a newbie so this may have all been hashed out years ago or a flamebait topic before but I am interested in knowing more about this particular era (and why some seem to hate it so). Obviously for those that liked a monolithic stable Imperium they would dislike it. I would think that for those that like their pockets of safe space, the cores of each Rebellion state could still give that feel, while those that want more conflict can go to the edges or space between the states.

Note: I am talking only of the Rebellion and only in terms of setting, not rules. So no Virus, no real world issues of layout, errata, or clunky rules.

It actually is a subject that hasn't been done to death. It's hardly been done at all.

Given that

1. the Imperium exceeds the 90-day "rule"... (Empires are unstable when the capital to edge exceeds 90 days one way, 180 days round trip...)
2. Several of the factions wanted to "shore up and wait for a successor" -
   Domain of Deneb, Margaret's Imperium, Domain of Antares, Real Strephon
3. Lucan's Imperium and the Domain of Illelish were all but depleted of forward assets by 1121
4. Black War starting in 1120 on several borders
5. Lag time for action orders

The smaller imperial fragments very well could have been a viable setting long term.

The Aslan, Vargr, and K'Kree could all be held at bay at their 1125 borders pretty reasonably.

The Solomani and Vilani Ziru Sirkaa were holding to "traditional borders" - consolidating those could keep the setting quite stable for a while - into the 1200's.

Lucan, in the absence of Virus, faces down Dulinor. Kill both, and have heirs in place, and Archduchess Isis comes to power... and some minor duke gets enthroned as regent... then accepts the crown in around 1200... perhaps ending the split by marrying Isis then jointly ruling, with one joint heir...

Eventually, say, 1250 or so, the borders would likely be zones a mere 10 Pc thick.

The 3I remnant is large - two large factions - but the others would be present.

Without the need for the quarantine, I don't see HH Avery democritizing nearly so much. Then again, that democratization in the Domain never made sense to me story-wise anyway.

With the exception of potentially uniting Illelish and the Core, yes, I think it could be stable enough to support a long term cold war setting... but it would be Hard Times, Cold times, then the Thaw...

 

[LeperColony]

I actually think the setting could have been stretched out more or less indefinitely, if balkanization were the direction the writers had wanted to go.

What the Rebellion really showed was the fundamental weakness of the 3I as a social institution. There was so little loyalty to it, and sectional interests so strong, that the core institutions ultimately failed.

Take IRIS, for example. They simply invent a role for themselves, and claim to cite various mandates (they try to justify using fleets under a mandate to sustain the Imperium during an interregnum). But they aren't challenged on this. There are no Imperial constitutional scholars who are calling them out. Ultimately nobody cares what the law says. And that's the failure of the system to bind people to it.

 

[aramis]

I actually think the setting could have been stretched out more or less indefinitely, if balkanization were the direction the writers had wanted to go.

What the Rebellion really showed was the fundamental weakness of the 3I as a social institution. There was so little loyalty to it, and sectional interests so strong, that the core institutions ultimately failed.

Take IRIS, for example. They simply invent a role for themselves, and claim to cite various mandates (they try to justify using fleets under a mandate to sustain the Imperium during an interregnum). But they aren't challenged on this. There are no Imperial constitutional scholars who are calling them out. Ultimately nobody cares what the law says. And that's the failure of the system to bind people to it.

The IRIS issue is that it was supposed to be a variant, not a part of the OTU, but got back-doored in as a powergrab.

 

[Iracundus]

I always thought there would have been a floor to how low the Hard Times could have sunk everyone to, and that eventually the factions would have been too exhausted for any knock out blows. Then it would have become a period of detente and cold war, with maybe small scale raids (against just like Battletech). Total war/black war gets given up as everyone gets weak and once everyone realizes it risks another Long Night. Each faction may hoard its last strength and be averse to risk it on an all or nothing gamble against another faction, especially if any such move invites attack by others.

Lucan as a Caligula expy could die of an "accident" and a successor appointed. Dulinor could maybe die a disappointed man, etc... Once all the original big personalities of the Rebellion are gone, the personal nature of their war is gone. Their individual successors carry on laying claims to the throne or keeping things in order "for the duration of the ongoing crisis" but this becomes more a bit of tradition rather than a realistic claim. In 100, 200 years, the crisis could still be declared ongoing, even though the Imperium in reality has long since fractured. Without a Mad Emperor like Lucan doing everything possible to burn things to the ground, then maybe the factions could retrench and stabilize.

I don't know. I always found the concept of Warring States in Space offered lots of opportunity for intrigue and action. Also even states like that could have periods of false peace.

Although I am sure that if that had been the case, some people would complain that it's the same old thing over and over, just with different states rising to the top of the pile temporarily and no permanent winner.

 

[Vargas]

I seem to remember a lot of talk that the situation as of 1120 was to be the new default setting. That way there wasn't a single monolithic Imperium with all the boredom that implied for some.

I also seem to remember that Hard Times was the invention of Chuck Gannon after Marc Miller decided to turn MT more or less over to him. And it being the early 90s, dystopia ensued.

 

[Iracundus]

I think it would have been interesting for players wanting a broad swathe of safe space to go Solomani Confederation rather than Imperium. I have to admit Mongoose Traveller made the Solomani Confederation a lot more nuanced instead of just a caricatured jackbooted totalitarian secret police state. Sure there are the warmonger factions that get greedy for another Rule of Man over the original goals of restoring the Confederation to its original size. However there are also the moderate or radical factions given in Mongoose Traveller's Solomani module, like the Eschatonic Accelerationists, the Dolphin Embracers etc... There could be campaigns based around moderate player characters trying to reform the Confederation from within.


I like the concept of Hard Times, showing how interdependent an interstellar civilization like the Imperium really is and how it can slide into the depths through economic collapse as much as by actual military action. However I could also see how it might lead to big financial/asset gains for players, which might be unbalancing. Players delivering critical cargo to a desperate world could practically name their price.

 

[mike wightman]

I didn't like the Rebellion as a setting, too much took place off board and there was little to hook the players into the setting. It had potential, but nothing was done with it - compare the MT releases with the T2300 line...

That said, at the end of the MT era - Hard Times, one of my favourite Traveller settings bar none.

It would have shrunk the safes back to subsector sized pocket empires, which in time could have begun the re-exploration of the old empire. The timeframe for this is critical.
A few decades and everyone remembers the 3I, so it has to be a few centuries (I would have preferred TNE to have been much further into the future, 200-300 years minimum).

Another long night, with PCs exploring into the ruins of an old abandoned civilisation (the wreckage of the 3I).

 

[McPerth]

One thing to take into account is that the same literatura in HT (the introduction to each chapter) among other sources talk of a posterior reunification of the Imperium (though it's not clear under what terms)

Secifically in the introduction of HT Chapter 14 (page 79), that appears as written by some latter historian from Dlan University, we find:

Few of the fledgling polities that attempted to band toguether against the onset of the Short Dusk (Hard Times) lasted more tan a few years. Only a dozen or so survived long enough to be absorbed when the Safes of the post-Rebeliion factions began to reexpand. however, the fact that so many interstellar polities did strike to lnk themselves in common cause against the threat of social and technological recidivism offers insight into why the Short Dusk will not become another Long Night.

This quote, among others from other MT sources, have always made me think that the Virus was not the intended end of the Rebellion when it was released as MT, nor was it a permanent fragmentation of the Imperium. but a break down to be refounded.

 

[aramis]

This quote, among others from other MT sources, have always made me think that the Virus was not the intended end of the Rebellion when it was released as MT, nor was it a permanent fragmentation of the Imperium. but a break down to be refounded.

Marc's said as much. Virus was pitched at the same time TNE was... as a way to reset the setting.

Marc isn't a big fan of Virus, either, but he's not going to retcon it out of existence, either, because he finds coping with it in setting to be an "interesting challenge."

One (of several) sources: http://gamingandbs.com/bbs016

 

[mike wightman]

Marc left GDW in 1991, long before TNE was on the drawing board. I have on my drive the original outlines CG pitched to GDW to progress the MT timeline beyond Hard Times - and within a couple of them you can see elements that would go into TNE.

But TNE was very much FC, DN, LKW and LS; Marc doesn't even get a credit apart from Previous Traveller Editions original game concept.

I think the main problem with MT all along was that they didn't have an end in sight.

By the way that is a really interesting interview with Marc - big revelations about the Vilani and jump 2, and the true nature of the Annic Nova among other things.

 

[Iracundus]

This quote, among others from other MT sources, have always made me think that the Virus was not the intended end of the Rebellion when it was released as MT, nor was it a permanent fragmentation of the Imperium. but a break down to be refounded.

I thought the same. I admit IMTU I don't like the idea of Virus, the Empress Wave, the Solomani genetically engineered super men etc... which is why I also don't like the OTU 1248 setting. I rather not have all these McGuffin world destroying events, when human/sophont actions and motivations can accomplish similar ends. I guess I prefer more of a "future history" reflecting past history. An empire tearing itself apart over succession issues and then a civil war, that I can buy. Warring in States in Space, sure.

So IMTU instead of a revolt of genetically engineered super men, the Solomani Confederation instead suffers from internal conflict between the Party factions, the Navy, and SolSec. IMTU the Empress Wave may exist, but by the time it hits the major entities of known space, it has weakened to the point where it is no longer a civilization destroying wave of crazy.

 

[mike wightman]

This quote, among others from other MT sources, have always made me think that the Virus was not the intended end of the Rebellion when it was released as MT, nor was it a permanent fragmentation of the Imperium. but a break down to be refounded.

Virus was invented by Frank Chadwick to flatten what was left of MT so they could re-set to the New Era - this is explained in Dave Nilsen's extended Q&A and in an interview with Frank Chadwick.
When Charles Gannon took over MT and brought about the Hard Times he had mapped out how the Imperium would recover, but it would take a while and lots of stuff for PCs to do along the way.

 

[Iracundus]

One (of several) sources: http://gamingandbs.com/bbs016

Eh....haven't heard that one about how the Vilani got Jump-2. Have to admit also not liking the special snowflake nature of that story, and would much prefer the Vilani got Jump-2 through experimentation and then kept it a state secret like how in the past things like Greek Fire or silk manufacture were state secrets. The Vilani may be ultra conservative but let's not make them totally uncreative.

 

[LeperColony]

Dave also said that GDW had been hearing from retailers that Traveller was too hard to get in to, there was too much backstory. One of the things they liked about Virus was the ability to start over.

 

[aramis]

Dave also said that GDW had been hearing from retailers that Traveller was too hard to get in to, there was too much backstory. One of the things they liked about Virus was the ability to start over.

The Start Over resulted in a totally new, and often hostile, fanbase.

Traveller was pushed as a setting by three local game stores in Anchorage in the 80's & 90's. (Spenard hobby, First Empire, Boscos, and Games People Play.) Likewise by both the chain stores. (Game Keeper, Hobbycraft). TNE didn't see much push at FE, and GK, GPP and SH were gone before TNE came out.

Look at the commercial success of GT... it was selling setting, not rules.
T20, as well.

 

[GypsyComet]

I think the main problem with MT all along was that they didn't have an end in sight.

GDW did have an end in sight, but the effect of a deeply enthusiastic licensee (DGP) was to let GDW get distracted away from Traveller into other projects. DGP was not really aiming for the "exhausted Imperium" endpoint, because they were only sort of interested in the Rebellion in the first place. They appeared to be having far more fun showing us the Imperium just prior to the Rebellion (and we were enjoying reading it), so the Rebellion was somewhat perfunctorily covered. This approach by DGP had several effects which enhanced the extreme reaction to TNE.

FWIW, DGP had yet another war in the works to follow the Rebellion. The big differences were that it was against an outsider, and it was under DGP's plot control.

 

[mike wightman]

GDW did have an end in sight,

Really? What was it?

but the effect of a deeply enthusiastic licensee (DGP) was to let GDW get distracted away from Traveller into other projects.

Not quite - GDW farmed traveller off to DGP so they could concentrate on their more important projects. Traveller was a distraction for GDW.

FWIW, DGP had yet another war in the works to follow the Rebellion. The big differences were that it was against an outsider, and it was under DGP's plot control.

The baddies from the core would have tied in to the Zhodani/Droyne alien module - it was not going to re-unite the shattered Imperium.

 

[aramis]

Really? What was it?

Not quite - GDW farmed traveller off to DGP so they could concentrate on their more important projects. Traveller was a distraction for GDW.

Was it? Really, the distractions seemed to be Space 1889 and Cadillacs and Dinos, Harpoon, and Johnny Reb.

in 1986-87, GDW had a few RPGs in print:
Classic Traveller
Twilight 2000
MegaTraveller
Traveller 2300
And were working on Space 1889 (for 1988 release)

Plus they had several boardgame lines... including games tied in to T2K, 1889, 2300, and Frank's pet obsession, the US Civil War...

Traveller wasn't a "Distraction" - it was THE major product line - about 1 in every 5 releases prior had been Traveller, if not more. (For a while, it was more like 1 in 4.) Between 1979 and 1986 - Traveller went from 1 to 56+ products. Given Marc's oft quote "every 22 days for 20 years"... that would make CT just shy of half the products released during that 7 year window.

In many ways, GDW in 1986 was "The Traveller Company, which also does..."