Was the Rebellion as a setting sustainable?

[GypsyComet]

In case people haven't noticed, I'm not a fan of Virus.

Without it, former Imperial space is at risk of being overrun by just about all of the other Major powers. Only the Zhodani and Hivers are unlikely to make hay in Imperial space by 1129. The K'kree are already trying, and will eventually get past the Luriani/Ursa/Sydite Wall of Obstinance. The Antares-Julian alliance may get a wild hair at some point, or may act to moderate part of Vargr space. The rest of the Vargr states will see loot and glory. The Aslan and Solomani are going to cancel each other out for a while, but both are operating from large backfields.

The only thing which kept Vilani/Solomani space largely clear of invaders during the Long Night was that most of those neighbors were still in early expansion mode themselves, or were far too busy with their own concerns. No such barriers are present by 1130 except that the Zhodani are wracked by something and the Hivers are still too cautious. Everyone else will be ready and willing to split the former Third Imperium between them, wipe out the pesky meat eaters, or both.

Virus levels the entire map and puts all pending actions on a 70 to 100 year Hold. Then the Wave sweeps through and pulls another Generation Kill...

 

[Iracundus]

The fighting of the Rebellion was really driven more by Dulinor and Lucan, both of whom had eyes only for each other. With Dulinor and Lucan out of the picture, the leaders of the Imperial factions (including the Ziru Sirkaa) would be able to concentrate on rebuilding and on shoring up defenses against others encroaching on former Imperial territory. The offer of security could be one of the selling points in getting former Imperial worlds to sign up under one of the factions.

While there may be some erosion of borders, I don't see the territory of the Imperium being conquered wholesale, simply due to the scale and the conquerors having their own set of issues to deal with.

The Zhodani are not expansionist despite Imperial fears and the 3rd Imperium fragmenting keeps the Consulate safe. The Solomani are busy with their internal moderate vs hardliner factional struggle and digesting their existing gains. The Vargr are not going to be able to pull off any unified conquest of former Imperial territory though they may ransack.

Some nibbles may be taken out of the carcass of the 3rd Imperium, but I don't see wholesale collapse or conquest, especially if the Imperial factions settle down and begin shoring up or expanding their safes. Once some of the opportunistic raids get beaten back by factions, a new status quo and new border will eventuate.

I just don't see the need for gimmicks wiping the board over and over.

 

[whartung]

But a freighter load of ball bearings can make frontier refuelling risky... half the load into highly inclined equitorials, the other half in polar.... and that world is now filled with dangerous impactors at relatively low costs.

The idea of "salting" a gas giant is quite interesting. I wonder the practicalities of it. It's truly a "black war" kind of thing, since it's agnostic and poisons the well for all sides.

 

[aramis]

The idea of "salting" a gas giant is quite interesting. I wonder the practicalities of it. It's truly a "black war" kind of thing, since it's agnostic and poisons the well for all sides.

It can be cleared... Not easily, but it can.Months to years with sub-millimeter radar and lasers....

And, eventually it will clear itself. Orbits decay.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

This thread is essentially an alternate history scenario of the OTU. The point of departure: Virus exists and is released OR doesn't exist/not released. So...
:coffeesip: :coffeegulp:
With that in mind, the following are events that in the OTU occur prior to Virus hitting them. These are gleaned from 1248 which is canon (until Marc says its not). How do these events shape your alternate future?
1127
Three K'kree trading vessels are destroyed in Ley Sector having failed to respond to a squad of Imperial (Lucan) destroyers

1128
A K'kree Battlefleet enters Ley Sector, gets destroyed by two Imperial (Lucan) Battlefleets. Each side delivers strong messages involving dire consequences to each other for these actions.

1129
Federation of Daibei repeals the Psionic Suppression laws and begins open research of psionics.
Domain of Antares begins to unravel as Archduke Brzk and majority of government killed on space station Cherise.
Margaret's Domain and Solomani Confederation sign the Treaty of Altair, formally ending hostilities.
Dulinor begins the Coronation Fleet assault?

1130
001-1130 Treaty of Altair fully in effect
Keratu, a major subidiary of Tukera, and Solomani Transstar form a major trade route between the two Empires in Old Expanses sector
The Lords of Thunder have conquered the Renkard Union by this time
The Lords of Thunder are openly engaged in warfare in trailing part of Gateway Sector
Vegan Autonomous District still not subjegated

Unspecified Dates, but prior to Virus:
Federation of Daibei
Reaches unspecified peace accord with the Solomani Confederation
Stems the tide of Aslan ihatei by granting territory in exchange for military(mercenary) assistance from the Aslan.

Solomani Confederation
Aslan ihatei turn their attention to the Confederation
Some factions, desiring retaking Terra and no more, begin serious talk of secession. Rebellions sprout on many newly captured worlds
Neworld Sector suffers "clashes" between the Solomani Confederation and Hiver Federation.

Coreward
Julian Protectorate sponsors "raiders" into Mendan and Lishun Sectors. Many Vargr upon hearing this decide to become raiders, even if unsponsored.

 

[mike wightman]

It can be cleared... Not easily, but it can.Months to years with sub-millimeter radar and lasers....

And, eventually it will clear itself. Orbits decay.

Or use a heavily armoured ship as a 'snow plow' - if the ball bearings are in orbit they are not actually moving all that fast compared to the speed of a typical interplanetary voyage;
or use repulsors to push them into the atmosphere to burn up (repulsors still exist in MT after all)...

both pretty quick and pretty easy.

 

[mike wightman]

This thread is essentially an alternate history scenario of the OTU. The point of departure: Virus exists and is released OR doesn't exist/not released. So...
:coffeesip: :coffeegulp:
With that in mind, the following are events that in the OTU occur prior to Virus hitting them. These are gleaned from 1248 which is canon (until Marc says its not). How do these events shape your alternate future?
1127
Three K'kree trading vessels are destroyed in Ley Sector having failed to respond to a squad of Imperial (Lucan) destroyers

1128
A K'kree Battlefleet enters Ley Sector, gets destroyed by two Imperial (Lucan) Battlefleets. Each side delivers strong messages involving dire consequences to each other for these actions.

1129
Federation of Daibei repeals the Psionic Suppression laws and begins open research of psionics.
Domain of Antares begins to unravel as Archduke Brzk and majority of government killed on space station Cherise.
Margaret's Domain and Solomani Confederation sign the Treaty of Altair, formally ending hostilities.
Dulinor begins the Coronation Fleet assault?

1130
001-1130 Treaty of Altair fully in effect
Keratu, a major subidiary of Tukera, and Solomani Transstar form a major trade route between the two Empires in Old Expanses sector
The Lords of Thunder have conquered the Renkard Union by this time
The Lords of Thunder are openly engaged in warfare in trailing part of Gateway Sector
Vegan Autonomous District still not subjegated

Unspecified Dates, but prior to Virus:
Federation of Daibei
Reaches unspecified peace accord with the Solomani Confederation
Stems the tide of Aslan ihatei by granting territory in exchange for military(mercenary) assistance from the Aslan.

Solomani Confederation
Aslan ihatei turn their attention to the Confederation
Some factions, desiring retaking Terra and no more, begin serious talk of secession. Rebellions sprout on many newly captured worlds
Neworld Sector suffers "clashes" between the Solomani Confederation and Hiver Federation.

Coreward
Julian Protectorate sponsors "raiders" into Mendan and Lishun Sectors. Many Vargr upon hearing this decide to become raiders, even if unsponsored.

I am not convinced that some of these events are remotely plausible.
Having listened to Marc's interview the one that sticks out the most is the repealing of the psionics laws - not going to happen.
Some of the others are just too contrived.

I would stick to MT canon when wondering 'what if' rather than retrospectively tell the story using ideas from several authors (FC, DN, MJD).

 

[Nathan Brazil]

You do remember that the Domain of Deneb also relaxed Imperial standards about psionics in the TNE setting which is also OTU? So it might happen elsewhere.

I heard the the exact same podcast from Gamehole Con where he discusses how his next novel which may be about the Psionic Suppressions, how Evil, Pure Evil the Zhodani may truly be. I also heard his general preference that Virus and the Wave did not exist....

BUT

Do not forget one of his operating principals

"I am bound by canon" - Marc W Miller at Gamercon 2016

So its canon until Marc says it is not. 1248 still is IIRC.

The Federation of Daibei turning to open research psionics is specified as the level of desperation of Duke Craig to keep his region together.

 

[mike wightman]

You do remember that the Domain of Deneb also relaxed Imperial standards about psionics in the TNE setting which is also OTU? So it might happen elsewhere.

The Domain if Deneb was inundated with Zhodani refugees that brought their psionic culture with them.

I heard the the exact same podcast from Gamehole Con where he discusses how his next novel which may be about the Psionic Suppressions, how Evil, Pure Evil the Zhodani may truly be. I also heard his general preference that Virus and the Wave did not exist....

There is a section where he discusses the 'evil nature' of the Zhodani - they still sound more like good guys than the Imperials to me.

BUT

Do not forget one of his operating principalsSo its canon until Marc says it is not. 1248 still is IIRC.

AotI alludes to the empress wave, rebellion and virus.

What if every branch of future history post FFW is actually a reality manipulation and Marc opts to collapse them back together by the Galaxiad?

The Federation of Daibei turning to open research psionics is specified as the level of desperation of Duke Craig to keep his region together.

Which is a deal with the devil in the Imperial paradigm - not going to happen without another psychohistory experiment. As Marc puts it. it would be like everyone in America suddenly accepting something that up to now is considered anathema (I'm not brave enough to quote the example he uses in the podcast).

 

[Nathan Brazil]

What if every branch of future history post FFW is actually a reality manipulation and Marc opts to collapse them back together by the Galaxiad?

If it comes to pass I will bow my head, then raise it high and happily sing the praises of the new canon. Hosanna! But until then I accept the lesser gospels of FC, DN and MJD in the Books of MT, TNE, and 1248 as decreed by Miller, interpreter of the of the word. After all, I proudly display my belief via my avatar.
I see you do not mention the JF the heretic and the dark books of DGP :rofl:
In-universe, the new reality full of Zachary Quinto(s) floating around will have not a clue of another reality ever existing. It may be possible that the occasional time-travelling Leonard Nimoy or Yaskodray or other creator of the manipulation will know what used to be and remember afterwards. In universe, this may not make much of a difference.

Outside the OTU, in our real world, writing in a reality manipulation requires acknowledgement that the situation existed in the universe prior its removal and hopefully a good story. I do not think that has happened yet in the canon of the OTU or a published "approved for use with Traveller" or what the going label is these days in the real world.

So until then, chalk it up as nagging canon that exists but not make sense like Norris and his Kuninir/Edict 97 issues or which version of Sword Worlds is more correct and so on.

 

[Grav_Moped]

What if every branch of future history post FFW is actually a reality manipulation and Marc opts to collapse them back together by the Galaxiad?

In a meta sense (out-of-universe) they already are. What Marc does with them is up to him -- and that too, whatever it happens to be, will be a manipulation of the "reality" of the OTU.

This sort of thing has already happened in-universe. Book 5 literally changed the OTU's laws of physics! Inexplicably (from within the game universe) Jump Drives became smaller (and some civilizations who had mastered Jump-6 could no longer even comprehend Jump-4*) while Maneuver Drives became huge, and the largest conceivable starships were suddenly dwarfed by fleets of enormous vessels that apparently had been there all along without anyone noticing. Out-of-universe, it was simply an addition of a re-balanced and expanded rule set to enable battles between massive interstellar fleets because it'd be an interesting game. In-universe, it was a fundamental change in the way the universe functioned.

OTU history is potentially (but only potentially) just as mutable.

Marc holds himself bound to canon, but it's worth noting that he himself is the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not canon.

I've already spent far too long thinking about this, but there's another angle here. Could it be possible to shift the end points of the conflicting narratives to converge on a shared end-state at some point? On one hand, the TNE timeline of collapse gets followed by reconstruction; on the other, the non-collapse timeline develops slow decay into a dark age. At some point in both futures the results look the same, and long after that, a retrospective look at the period might justify either one as being what actually happened.

Or perhaps I ought to get some sleep.




* LBB2, J-6 was available at TL-12 (Comp Mod/6 was the constraint); HG, J-3 was the maximum for TL-12 (constrained by the TL requirement for J-Drive rating).

 

[Iracundus]

The Domain if Deneb was inundated with Zhodani refugees that brought their psionic culture with them.

There is a section where he discusses the 'evil nature' of the Zhodani - they still sound more like good guys than the Imperials to me.

AotI alludes to the empress wave, rebellion and virus.

What if every branch of future history post FFW is actually a reality manipulation and Marc opts to collapse them back together by the Galaxiad?

Which is a deal with the devil in the Imperial paradigm - not going to happen without another psychohistory experiment. As Marc puts it. it would be like everyone in America suddenly accepting something that up to now is considered anathema (I'm not brave enough to quote the example he uses in the podcast).

Changing Imperial laws about a practice that Imperial culture deems immoral does not mean the general populace accepts it. They may still go "Eww..." and raise uproar over the change. Remember that the PoV of the main character in AotI leans Vilani in culture so naturally he takes a dim view of psionics. It is a biased narrator.

Now in AotI, the segment on the Zhodani seems to suggest at least one world of Zhodani seems to be trying to alter the (future) timeline. There is allusion to the Rebellion, Virus, and Empress Wave. Seems they were trying through mystical practices to sync up psionically-sensitive individuals so that their unified actions could subtly alter the Not Foam and somehow alter the timeline. We don't know whether they succeed or not.

 

[mike wightman]

Not just amoral - anathema. Sick, perverted, wrong.
This is not from AotI narrative, it is from Marc's description in his interview where he gives an analogy that I can not repost here without breaking board rules.

I'm looking forward to Marc's take on the psionic suppression psychohistory experiment and how it alters the mindset of an interstellar empire.

As to the Zhodani reality manipulation/Not Foam revelation - Marc could use that to alter canon that he really dislikes, explain away alternative versions of future history, and finally have it all put to bed by the Galaxiad era.

 

[Iracundus]

The Gamehole Con 2016 interview doesn't seem to give any one sided view of psionics and Marc even says that whether or not the Zhodani are "evil empire" is kept deliberately vague.

He contrasted the superior ability to educate, the superior ability to diagnose and treat mental disorders, with the risk of everyone becoming contented sheeple and society losing the drive to rock the boat. He contrasted the difference between the Imperials hating the idea of the privacy of their mind being invaded, versus the Zhodani being aghast at the chaos and deceit in Imperial society. The Zhodani are naive enough about deceit that they need to take dishonesty lessons to be able to cope in Imperial society. It did not seem he made any clear OOC determination about the morality of psionics, just contrasted its benefits and the potential dangers when taken too far.

 

[mike wightman]

I can not reply without quoting Marc directly, the adult nature of the subject matter being against board rules.

His explanation of the Imperial view of psionics, not the right or wrong of viewing the Zhodani as an evil empire.

But this is derailing the topic rather a lot.

Back to the sustainability of the Rebellion.

I think that one of the issues that MT faced was very little in the way of PC scale adventure support and no guidance of how to play the great game between factions. So the game was all metaplot with little player interaction, until Hard Times (which is a favourite of mine but not everyone's cup of tea) brought back PC scale adventures and characters that could affect the setting.

Add rules for a great game between factions, add rules for pocket empires resisting the fall of their little corner of the Imperium, and come up with some way to explain why the huge empires on the borders of the Imperium don't just come in and pick the corpse clean and you could have a sustainable setting that could last a long time.

I wonder how many MT referees continued into Hard Times, and how many had already made up their own ending. Of those that continued into Hard Times was their just disintegration and despair or eventual rebuilding...

 

[Iracundus]

I can not reply without quoting Marc directly, the adult nature of the subject matter being against board rules.

His explanation of the Imperial view of psionics, not the right or wrong of viewing the Zhodani as an evil empire.

That's the Imperial view. We already know they are dead set against it. No new information there.

We also know the Zhodani view.

How the Thought Police are viewed depends on whether you agree or disagree with those viewpoints.

Back to the sustainability of the Rebellion.

I think that one of the issues that MT faced was very little in the way of PC scale adventure support and no guidance of how to play the great game between factions. So the game was all metaplot with little player interaction, until Hard Times (which is a favourite of mine but not everyone's cup of tea) brought back PC scale adventures and characters that could affect the setting.

Add rules for a great game between factions, add rules for pocket empires resisting the fall of their little corner of the Imperium, and come up with some way to explain why the huge empires on the borders of the Imperium don't just come in and pick the corpse clean and you could have a sustainable setting that could last a long time.

I wonder how many MT referees continued into Hard Times, and how many had already made up their own ending. Of those that continued into Hard Times was their just disintegration and despair or eventual rebuilding...

Quotes in Hard Times suggested the safes contracted then expanded again eventually, suggesting there was eventual rebuilding, though many pocket empires did not last long enough to see that. Again this was before the RL invention and insertion of Virus.

For the Rebellion, one would have to either play a military campaign, either commanding or being part of the fleets and armies of one faction. Alternatively maybe being allowed to play as a pocket empire leader or subdivision leader of a faction, either having to support the war effort or trying to prevent or ameliorate collapse of your local area with the limited resources available.

Your normal group of players would either have to be deniable black op assets, scouts, smugglers, or economic/humanitarian aid. In a noble or diplomat campaign, I suppose the goal could be around persuading worlds to join a faction, shoring up support for your faction as times get more difficult, or negotiating a peace treaty with another faction or outside power.

 

[mike wightman]

Being historically a wargame company I am amazed that GDW didn't attempt a MT strategic game.

Imagine being able to determine your own outcome of the Rebellion and how it could be tied in to the role playing game.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

That's the Imperial view. We already know they are dead set against it. No new information there.

:nonono:
People fail to remember that Imperium was not always this way as Marc Miller's Traveller Psionics Institutes supplement would indicate during the dawn of the Third Imperium

I submit that the abhorrence may be more political propaganda against the Zhodani than actual abhorrence. Unless the psychohistorical experiment WAS in fact actually to change the average Imperial subject's opinion to permanently abhor psionics and the Library Data entry is the "Lie"? :smirk:
Tun
TUN
TUN:rofl:

 

[Iracundus]

Being historically a wargame company I am amazed that GDW didn't attempt a MT strategic game.

Imagine being able to determine your own outcome of the Rebellion and how it could be tied in to the role playing game.

Yeah I always thought the Rebellion was perfect for such a grand strategy game. Imagine each faction having its own quirk or advantage or disadvantage.

Or if the player is fleet commander not faction leader, then having to deal with the demands of your leader. Like Lucan's commanders had larger fleets, but had to deal with Lucan's demands, which might force them to do things they'd rather not, like make hasty attacks or black war type destruction.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

This thread discusses the very topic of making a "Rebellion" Wargame.